Comparing the best PF's at age 24

[okpistolpete]

We have been so spoiled with Blake's progress that we keep comparing him to the likes of Barkley and Malone. But remember, Griffin is only 24 years old. So how were the 'greats' at that age? I'm going to also include Garnett and Nowitzki in this comparison, but not Duncan - because unlike EVERYBODY else I'm still convinced he's a 5 who somehow is referred to as a 4.

POWER FORWARDS @ AGE 24

Blake Griffin: 24.2 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.6 bpg, 54% FG, 71% FT

Karl Malone: 27.7 ppg, 12.0 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.6 bpg, 52% FG, 70% FT

Charles Barkley: 28.3 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.3 bpg, 59% FG, 75% FT

Kevin Garnett: 22.0 ppg, 11.4 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.8 bpg, 48% FG, 76% FT

Dirk Nowitzki: 25.1 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 3.0 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.0 bpg, 46% FG, 88% FT


I think the thing to take from this is that his stats are certainly comparable to these legends, though he clearly is still a step behind. Now, with the way he's been playing since the new year it's a different story:

Blake Griffin (since Jan. 1): 27.9 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.4 bpg, 57% FG, 71% FT


If he has truly turned that corner and this (or better) is the kind of production we can expect to get from him, then I'd say he's right on pace with the best to ever play the position. Pretty impressive stuff.

[mttwlsn16]

Barkley was a beast

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[Neddy]

yeah, out of that five, or any all time greats at PF position, i would choose the Round Mound of Rebound every time. i have been privileged enough to watch him play in his prime with the 76ers, and he was a one man wrecking crew. he had it all. and he was only about 6-5 in reality. too bad Sir Charles never got to play with anyone good until his career was already past his prime. hersey hawkins and johnny dawkins were slightly above average, and Moses was too old by the time Barkley got there. he gave his heart and soul to the city of brotherly love, and for that, he never got a ring.

BTW back to the topic, blake has been better lately and should be considered one of the tops today, but his dismissal of rebounding duties makes him still much behind the greats, who averaged double digit rebounds to go with high scoring. after all, that's what great power forwards are supposed to be doing. i don't like the fact that since the new year, his scoring went up as his rebounding dipped further down.

[okpistolpete]

BTW back to the topic, blake has been better lately and should be considered one of the tops today, but his dismissal of rebounding duties makes him still much behind the greats, who averaged double digit rebounds to go with high scoring. after all, that's what great power forwards are supposed to be doing. i don't like the fact that since the new year, his scoring went up as his rebounding dipped further down.

I really don't think that's fair. The only way you can criticize someone's lack of rebounds is if it's due to a lack of effort. Nobody works harder on the court than Griffin, on both ends of the floor. He just so happens to play next to the leading rebounder in the league. That combined with the fact that we haven't been allowing enough missed shots is the reason for the slight dip in rebounds. Saying he's "dismissed his rebounding duties" is not accurate.

[Quake Griffin]

nope.
he's got to rebound better.
if you say he's working hard and the numbers don't show it....well work harder. do better.

we don't have a 3 man that grabs boards for us.
he has to grab 11 or 12 a game even if DJ is grabbing 15-20 because we get creamed on the boards on a nightly basis.

[mkwest]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EricPatten/status/434448094474670080[/tweet]

I'd like to see his rebounding numbers pick up a little bit as well, but you have to factor in that he is playing alongside the league-leader who is pulling down 14 per game. The rebounding comparisons aren't as bad if you use the per-36 numbers. Due to them each playing at different paces, you want to also look at total rebounding percentage, which is the percentage of available rebounds collected while on the floor.

Per-36, Rebound % & (Team Pace)
Griffin - 9.8, 15.1%, (95.6)
Barkley - 10.8, 17.4% (96.0)
Malone - 11.1, 16.6% (101.5)
Garnett - 10.4, 16.4% (91.8)
Nowitzki - 9.1, 14.0% (92.5)

Each of those power forwards are the best rebounders on their respective teams. Blake is playing alongside DJ who is pulling down 14 per 36 and who has a rebounding percentage of 21.6%, which is greater than any of these guys by a good margin.

Mike Gminski averaged 10.5 (10.1 per-36) alongside Barkley.
Mark Eaton averaged 8.7 (9.5 per-36) next to Malone.
LePhonso Ellis averaged 6.0 (9.1 per-36) alongside Garnett.
Shawn Bradley averaged 5.9 (9.9 per-36) next to Nowitzki.

In comparison to the above power forwards, we're talking a deficit of a fraction of a rebound per game despite playing alongside a guy like DJ. I still would like to see him average double digits, but there's not much to nitpick about if DJ keeps doing what he's doing.

[Quake Griffin]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EricPatten/status/434448094474670080[/tweet]

I'd like to see his rebounding numbers pick up a little bit as well, but you have to factor in that he is playing alongside the league-leader who is pulling down 14 per game. The rebounding comparisons aren't as bad if you use the per-36 numbers. Due to them each playing at different paces, you want to also look at total rebounding percentage, which is the percentage of available rebounds collected while on the floor.

Per-36, Rebound % & (Team Pace)
Griffin - 9.8, 15.1%, (95.6)
Barkley - 10.8, 17.4% (96.0)
Malone - 11.1, 16.6% (101.5)
Garnett - 10.4, 16.4% (91.8)
Nowitzki - 9.1, 14.0% (92.5)

Each of those power forwards are the best rebounders on their respective teams. Blake is playing alongside DJ who is pulling down 14 per 36 and who has a rebounding percentage of 21.6%, which is greater than any of these guys by a good margin.

Mike Gminski averaged 10.5 (10.1 per-36) alongside Barkley.
Mark Eaton averaged 8.7 (9.5 per-36) next to Malone.
LePhonso Ellis averaged 6.0 (9.1 per-36) alongside Garnett.
Shawn Bradley averaged 5.9 (9.9 per-36) next to Nowitzki.

In comparison to the above power forwards, we're talking a deficit of a fraction of a rebound per game despite playing alongside a guy like DJ. I still would like to see him average double digits, but there's not much to nitpick about if DJ keeps doing what he's doing.

we don't rebound well enough outside of those 2 for that to be the case.

he needs to pull down 12 in addition to Dre's numbers in all honesty.

[mkwest]

we don't rebound well enough outside of those 2 for that to be the case.

he needs to pull down 12 in addition to Dre's numbers in all honesty.

That would put Blake at around a 18.4% rebounding percentage. Having 2 players pull down that many rebounds together over the course of a season has only happened 3 times (twice for Cowens/Silas for Celtics in early 70's and Barkley/Malone for Philly once in the '86 season). With that being said, if one goes up, the other's probably coming down. In all likelihood, DJ's numbers come down if BG's were to improve.

The team as a whole does need to step it up though. 4 of our 5 players logging between 25-30 mpg are only pulling down a hair over 2 rebounds each.

[mkwest]

HALL OF FAMER MALONE ‘LOVES’ WATCHING BLAKE GRIFFIN

“I always loved watching him play and how hard he played,” Malone said during Friday’s media availability for All-Star Saturday Night. “I just love the way he plays. There are about 10 or 12 guys that if they’re playing on TV I’ll watch them. When he comes off the floor or something like that I’ll change the channel and go back.”

Of course, there are differences, according to Malone.

“Number one, I never jumped like that,” the 2010 Hall of Fame inductee and NBA’s second all-time leading scorer said. “I jumped when I had to. As far as the physical play, I liked that. I just like his demeanor. I would like to see him get mad one time. Me, it didn’t take too much to get me riled up, but Blake is just one of those guys who just plays the game no matter what.”

“Growing up, my younger son loved the Oklahoma Sooners,” Malone said. “So, we went there for a football camp, so right off the bat I knew who Blake was. I didn’t spend any time but I started watching him because my son loved Oklahoma. He ended up going to LSU, of course, but I always watched Blake coming out of there.”

When told of Malone’s comments, Griffin said he was humbled.

“It’s an honor. I grew up watching Karl Malone and obviously he’s one of the best power forwards to ever play the game and had consistent success. That’s an honor and I’m humbled by that. But I’ve got a lot of work to do to get to where he was.”

Eric Patten, Clippers.com

[Neddy]

Dirk is a bad example to compare Blake to. he is a jump shooter who played away from the hoop most of his career. although blake is knocking those Js down lately, that is only to create more room for him to operate down low, where he should be making his living off of. Blake's rebounding, i hope will become similar to the likes of Barkley, Garnett, or Malone. Blake has most of the skill set these guys had, and a heck of a lot more athleticism to boot. for those who want to argue that DJ's presence makes it inevitable for blake's numbers to be in a single digit, i beg the pardon and ask of you to look up the 1993 spurs team stats. Dennis Rodman was averaging monstrous 17.3 rebounds per game, but that didn't stop Robinson from getting his at nearly 11 per.

[mkwest]

for those who want to argue that DJ's presence makes it inevitable for blake's numbers to be in a single digit, i beg the pardon and ask of you to look up the 1993 spurs team stats. Dennis Rodman was averaging monstrous 17.3 rebounds per game, but that didn't stop Robinson from getting his at nearly 11 per.

Rodman's numbers were insane. David Robinson's rebound percentage for that season was 14.8% and his per-36 number was 9.5 rebounds per game which are both lower than Blake's current season numbers. Robinson just happened to average 40.5 minutes per game. Blake would also average 11 rebounds if he played 40.5 minutes as well.

[okpistolpete]

Dirk is a bad example to compare Blake to. he is a jump shooter who played away from the hoop most of his career. although blake is knocking those Js down lately, that is only to create more room for him to operate down low, where he should be making his living off of. Blake's rebounding, i hope will become similar to the likes of Barkley, Garnett, or Malone. Blake has most of the skill set these guys had, and a heck of a lot more athleticism to boot. for those who want to argue that DJ's presence makes it inevitable for blake's numbers to be in a single digit, i beg the pardon and ask of you to look up the 1993 spurs team stats. Dennis Rodman was averaging monstrous 17.3 rebounds per game, but that didn't stop Robinson from getting his at nearly 11 per.

FYI - Career rebounds per 36 numbers:

Charles Barkley: 11.5
Blake Griffin: 10.4
Kevin Garnett: 10.4
Karl Malone 9.8

I think you guys are being pretty nit-picky here about his rebounds. He's playing alongside a better rebounder than Malone, Garnett, or Barkley ever did and he's right there with them so far. Furthermore, how can you watch the games and say he doesn't put effort into rebounding?? When have you ever seen him take a play off?

[Neddy]

Rodman's numbers were insane. David Robinson's rebound percentage for that season was 14.8% and his per-36 number was 9.5 rebounds per game which are both lower than Blake's current season numbers. Robinson just happened to average 40.5 minutes per game. Blake would also average 11 rebounds if he played 40.5 minutes as well.

robinson was also shouldering 30 points and 5 assists per game, on a team where second best scorer was Dale Ellis at 15 and Vinny Del Negro was their 4th best scorer. he had to shoulder a lot responsibilities and he carried that team in every way while often being double, triple teamed in a much rougher era. despite all that, robinson managed what he managed, between him and rodman pulling down 28 on nightly basis. Blake has more weapons around him to deflect the attention offensively. although we have seen him develop into a much better player than in the past lately on that end of the floor, he still isn't the defensive player that any of the others we have compared blake to, Robinson, Malone, Garnett, even Barkley were all great defensive players. there is still plenty of room for blake to box out better, position himself better, make better efforts defensively, and surely have room to pull down better than 8.7 per game he has grabbed since Jan 1, as his scoring went up by a couple more buckets. Blake is full of effort and energy offensively when he wants it but please, he is still far from a complete player. and i don't think there is anything wrong for any of us to expect more, and hold him to a higher bar than say, a player like Kevin Love who already has maxed out all of his abilities.

besides, we are still a piss poor rebounding team. we need our best rebounder for the last 3 seasons to do something close to his career numbers than 8.7

FYI - Career rebounds per 36 numbers:

Charles Barkley: 11.5
Blake Griffin: 10.4
Kevin Garnett: 10.4
Karl Malone 9.8

I think you guys are being pretty nit-picky here about his rebounds. He's playing alongside a better rebounder than Malone, Garnett, or Barkley ever did and he's right there with them so far. Furthermore, how can you watch the games and say he doesn't put effort into rebounding?? When have you ever seen him take a play off?

FYI, we are talking about him since Jan 1st, of this year, or whenever his offensive numbers surged. you want to talk about his career numbers, then do some math and place (blake's career numbers - numbers since jan 1st this year) = the number of rebounds blake isn't getting than before and i don't care if you put per 36, per game, per whatever, it shows clear decline in his rebounding numbers as his scoring went up by a few.

and yes, i have watched every game this season barring a couple that was blocked by directv here in Oregon, and every game there are more than a handful of moments he is talking off plays defensively, both in half court and in transition. call me old school, but coaches of yesteryears like Larry Brown or Jerry Sloan would have sat his ass down until he showed better efforts defensively in practice every time they saw any player slack off on the floor during a game. i truly feel as Vinny had given 4th quarter bench time to DJ for inability to shoot free throws, VDAA has also given out some entitlement playing time to his superstar player when he didn't show enthusiasm on defensive end.

remember once again, i didn't mention any lack of effort on offensive end, i am talking about his defensive end, which includes boxing out and rebounding. some part of his defense has gotten better than first couple of seasons, but please let's not make blake into a finished product with complete game and skills that he doesn't need any improvement. blake's defense in first couple of seasons were terrible. now they are average to respectable. i have said all along since the arrival of CP3 that regardless of how great of a point guard chris is, this team will only go as far as blake is willing to go and give. i don't think we are seeing anything other than exactly that, and blake can still get better. i know he is a hard worker, but working hard means nothing if results aren't there. now there is some result showing on defensive end, but since he elevated his offensive game in last couple of months, his boxing out and rebounding just isn't where i expect him to be. we need him to be a complete player, not a great offensive weapon who lets the other team score on him like say, a loser like Carmelo.

[Ranma]

I'm going to have to lean more towards the critical group in calling for better rebounding from both Jordan and Griffin. As previously pointed out, the team overall is a poor rebounding squad so there are plenty of rebounding opportunities to be had for improvement not just for Blake and DJ, but the team as a whole.

As insane as this may sound, DeAndre could definitely be posting even better rebounding numbers if he would box out consistently and does a better job of securing rebounds in his hands. It's remarkable that he's leading the league in rebounding on just sheer athleticism and a little more focus than he's employed in the past, but he doesn't really do a good job of boxing his man out and seems to lose a couple of easy rebounds per game with careless handling of the ball when it is in his hands.

I'm also going to nitpick on Blake's rebounding as well even though I don't think it's due to a lack of effort on his part, but more of focus. Part of this can be attributed to Doc's design of making it a bigger priority to get back on defense instead of securing rebounds even while he's calling for his players to do a better job of winning the 50-50 battles in hustle points. Another part of this is that as Griffin's game continues to expand, his focus seems to be addressing the areas where he feels less expert (outside shot, defense, free-throw shooting) at the expense of things he knows he can do well (rebounding). However, like DJ, Griffin takes for granted that he can rebound due to his athleticism. While I don't expect him to reach the same level, I've always wanted Blake to take after Kevin Love more in studying Rodman's approach to rebounding with respect to judging shot angles to anticipate where the ball will land, boxing out, etc.

Again, having DJ posting big rebounding numbers is not really an excuse for Blake not to do a better job on the boards, especially when the team as a whole is lacking in that department. David Robinson still averaged double-digit rebounds for the first 2-3 years after Tim Duncan's arrival--another double-digit rebounder--and still averaged double-digit per-36 rebound numbers every year to close his career. Barkley averaged double-digit rebounds upon entering the league even with Moses Malone posting similarly monstrous numbers as DJ's during his years in Philly. Hakeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson each averaged double digit rebounds during their time together in Houston.

Having said that, Blake is currently averaging 9.8 boards a game and DeAndre 14.0, so they're both obviously posting quite respectable numbers, but I am concerned with BG's 8.7 average after January 1st and I don't agree with the notion that either or both can't improve as rebounders. Now I say this with much respect for Blake's game and growth, but if this trend does not reverse course, Griffin's game is more suited towards garnering an All-Star MVP than a Playoffs MVP. Bottom line is the team, as a unit, needs to rebound better even if it means for our two Beastie Boys to do even more, fair or not. The more timely rebounds the team gets should also take away from the second-, third-, and fourth-chance opportunities given up to opponents, which in turn, should also increase our defensive proficiency.

[okpistolpete]

This is absolutely crazy to me. You guys want too much. Now I'm reading that Jordan should be rebounding better?

Jordan & Griffin are combining to average 23.8 rebounds per game. The second highest number for teammates in the league is Drummond & Monroe at 21.7. And not only are Jordan/Griffin leading the league in rebounds by more than 2 rebounds per game, their current average of 23.8 would be the highest in the league in 19 years! That's not good enough for you guys?

I can understand saying guys like Redick, Barnes, Crawford, etc need to rebound better, but when your PF/C have one of the highest combined rebounding marks of the modern era, give them a break.

[Neddy]

This is absolutely crazy to me. You guys want too much. Now I'm reading that Jordan should be rebounding better?

Jordan & Griffin are combining to average 23.8 rebounds per game. The second highest number for teammates in the league is Drummond & Monroe at 21.7. And not only are Jordan/Griffin leading the league in rebounds by more than 2 rebounds per game, their current average of 23.8 would be the highest in the league in 19 years! That's not good enough for you guys?

I can understand saying guys like Redick, Barnes, Crawford, etc need to rebound better, but when your PF/C have one of the highest combined rebounding marks of the modern era, give them a break.

we are not saying, well at least i am not saying they are not good enough. they are good, but to borrow the words of Vin Scully, "Good is not good, when better is expected"

I believe DJ is just scratching the surface of his true potential. he can be a 7 foot Dennis Rodman.
I believe Blake still has room to grow to mature and refine his game in every way, other than dunking. he can learn a few skilled, savvy low post moves to go with currently effective moves that are more based on his raw athleticism. he can get even better at free throws, and be consistent with his jumper. he can expand his range to be a decent 3 point shooter.

most of all, i believe both can immensely improve on their box out skills as well as one on one defense.

i truly believe DJ's potential is a perennial defensive player of the year, and Blake to be a multiple MVP of this league.

[okpistolpete]

By the way, remember that Doc favors getting back on D rather than crashing the boards more than any coach in the league. His teams are ALWAYS an average at best rebounding team. Last year Boston was second to last in rebounding. The year before that they were dead last. Before that, second to last. Before that, second to last again. If you guys have a problem with the rebounding numbers, blame Doc.

[okpistolpete]

This is absolutely crazy to me. You guys want too much. Now I'm reading that Jordan should be rebounding better?

Jordan & Griffin are combining to average 23.8 rebounds per game. The second highest number for teammates in the league is Drummond & Monroe at 21.7. And not only are Jordan/Griffin leading the league in rebounds by more than 2 rebounds per game, their current average of 23.8 would be the highest in the league in 19 years! That's not good enough for you guys?

I can understand saying guys like Redick, Barnes, Crawford, etc need to rebound better, but when your PF/C have one of the highest combined rebounding marks of the modern era, give them a break.

we are not saying, well at least i am not saying they are not good enough. they are good, but to borrow the words of Vin Scully, "Good is not good, when better is expected"

I believe DJ is just scratching the surface of his true potential. he can be a 7 foot Dennis Rodman.
I believe Blake still has room to grow to mature and refine his game in every way, other than dunking. he can learn a few skilled, savvy low post moves to go with currently effective moves that are more based on his raw athleticism. he can get even better at free throws, and be consistent with his jumper. he can expand his range to be a decent 3 point shooter.

most of all, i believe both can immensely improve on their box out skills as well as one on one defense.

i truly believe DJ's potential is a perennial defensive player of the year, and Blake to be a multiple MVP of this league.

Neddy - I don't disagree that they can improve. In fact, I think they both have the potential to be much better, which is SCARY. My issue is with statements like these, all which are in posts above:

his dismissal of rebounding duties makes him still much behind the greats

he's got to rebound better.
if you say he's working hard and the numbers don't show it....well work harder. do better.

I'm going to have to lean more towards the critical group in calling for better rebounding from both Jordan and Griffin.

[Neddy]

By the way, remember that Doc favors getting back on D rather than crashing the boards more than any coach in the league. His teams are ALWAYS an average at best rebounding team. Last year Boston was second to last in rebounding. The year before that they were dead last. Before that, second to last. Before that, second to last again. If you guys have a problem with the rebounding numbers, blame Doc.

i agree but that's only applicable to offensive rebounds. there are still plenty of room for defensive boards, which should improve if they would box out better

[Neddy]

well maybe the problem you see with my previous postings have more to do with different culture we maybe coming from. i have never been a part of giving out easy complements. never been a fan of little league kids getting a plaque for just playing. when i was in college, getting A meant nothing unless i was the top of my class. i take the same attitude to just about everything in my life and frankly, i think i can always get better, and do better. i am never quite satisfied with myself although i am perfectly content with where i am in life. i tend to expect the same from my children as well. i am simply just taking the same approach to players of my favorite basketball franchise that i see clearly haven't reached their potential and have plenty of time before they reach their peak to get better. i don't see a problem with constructive criticism but i can see where others might think it is crazy.