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Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2015 11:37 am
by Ranma
Even in the small sample size of the 1st 3 games of the season, it confirms what we already know that the core 4 of the starting lineup (Griffin, Jordan, Paul, and Redick) makes almost anyone look good. The "almost" qualifier obviously applies to Jamal Crawford and his continued net negative presence as illustrated in the article cited below.
Again, it's still early but it is encouraging to see that the latest iteration of the starting lineup is looking to continue its year-over-year improvement both offensively and defensively with currently the best net rating over the past 3 seasons. All this with Chris Paul hampered with a fractured finger and Lance Stephenson still acclimating to his new role.
While Stephenson's inclusion with the starting unit is considered the best (or least disruptive) of the possibilities, I can't help but wonder how Wesley Johnson would perform in that role. We all know that Paul Pierce will be the one to finish the games, health permitting, but it would be interesting to see the plus and minuses play out on the court between the Lance and Wesley starting lineups.
Of course, starting whomever would also have ripple effects to the bench unit. I suspect Johnson's defense would be at least as good as Stephenson's, if not better. Stephenson's ball-handling and passing is unquestionably superior to Johnson's. However, one would have to think that Wes, in addition to his length on D, would be the better 3-point shooter. While it may still be early, neither has established consistency in their roles or careers, for that matter, so it will be interesting to see the results once things are more settled.
Regardless, for the love of all that is holy, Doc should limit the usage of Jamal Crawford more than he has been so for this season.Justin Russo, ClipsNation.com (11/1/15)
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When the team has kept the same core four starters and put Pierce into the lineup, they’ve had a Net Rating of +22.8 in only 11 minutes. Their Offensive Rating is 105.4 and their Defensive Rating, somehow, is a mind-bogglingly low 82.6. When they take out Stephenson in favor of Crawford, their Net Rating crashes to -13.5. Their Offensive Rating is still a great 120.9, but their 134.4 Defensive Rating is utterly disgraceful. Granted, that’s only in 7 minutes. Once again, these are small sample sizes we are dealing with.
Starting Lineup Has Been A+ to Begin Season
Re: Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2015 2:42 pm
by mattd13
I have no idea what doc's plan is at this point and it is troubling.
Re: Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2015 4:41 pm
by og15
It was good to see Doc stagger the lineups at least a little bit last night. The ONLY real plan is staggering the lineups, especially now in the regular season so that guys can get used to playing with each other in certain lineups. One of Blake or Paul should be on the floor at all points in the game.
This is just a made up thing, but it could be something like this:
1st Quarter
Paul / Redick / Stephenson / Blake / DJ (5 mins)
Rivers / Redick / Pierce / Blake / Smith (4 mins)
Paul / Crawford / Johnson / Smith / DJ (3 mins)
2nd Quarter
Paul / Redick / Stephenson / Blake / DJ (3 mins)
Rivers / Crawford / Johnson / Pierce / Smith (3 mins)
Paul / Crawford / Stephenson / Blake / DJ (3 mins)
Paul / Redick / Pierce / Blake / DJ (3 mins)
Paul (17) / Redick (15) / Stephenson (11) / Blake (18) / DJ (17)
Rivers (7) / Crawford (9) / Johnson (6) / Pierce (10) / Smith (10)
That puts the minutes on pace for something like this:
Paul (34) / Redick (30) / Stephenson (22) / Blake (36) / DJ (34)
Rivers (14) / Crawford (18) / Johnson (12) / Pierce (20) / Smith (20)
You have one lineup without either Paul or Griffin, and approx 6 mpg and no more than a 3 minute stretch. Paul and Blake are still on together or 28 mpg and the majority of their minutes. Blake/Redick or Paul/DJ is on the floor for 42 mpg.
So far the Clippers are playing the 5 man bench lineup 10 mpg.
You could even adjust it to leave DJ with the bench in the 2nd quarter make them always on the court and still get guys rest.
2nd Quarter
Paul / Redick / Stephenson / Blake / DJ (2 mins)
Rivers / Crawford / Pierce / Smith / DJ (3 mins) ---> same lineup in 4th but with Johnson instead of Pierce
Paul / Crawford / Stephenson / Blake / Smith (3 mins) ---> same lineup in 4th, but Pierce instead of Crawford
Paul / Redick / Pierce / Blake / DJ (3 mins)
This would change the approx totals to:
Paul (32) / Redick (28) / Stephenson (20) / Blake (34) / DJ (32)
Rivers (14) / Crawford (15) / Johnson (9) / Pierce (20) / Smith (20)
Re: Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2015 6:56 pm
by madmaxmedia
I can see Lance or Wesley starting depending on matchups, primarily to take advantage of other teams' defensive weaknesses.
As you say, the skill set difference between the 2 is quite clear regardless of which player you like better, and that gives us some flexibility. It's really going to be the Big 2/3 on offense, and then the other 2 starters hopefully taking advantage of the attention on CP3 and Blake.
Re: Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2015 9:11 pm
by LACtdom
I think we need to revive Lance's career before we put him with the 2nd unit. Currently, I don't think he could handle that big of a role and would end up turning the ball over too much. Even though he struggles to shoot, with the starting unit at least he can pick his moments.
Re: Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Tue Nov 3, 2015 10:26 pm
by madmaxmedia
Re: Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Thu Nov 5, 2015 8:39 pm
by gipper08
I would disagree that the core four makes anybody look good. In fact the opposite; CP3 and Blake are awesome, top ten players but they like a controlled,canned,cookie cutter system that really benefits mostly them. They are largely risk averse to opening up the game and "balling".
I love JJ's movement and God knows we need more movement in today's game BUT most of it is headless chicken movement and he makes the floor more crowded compared to other elite shooters.
I really believe two of DJ, Blake, and CP should ALWAYS be on the floor. and always one of CP and Blake....but with Doc refusing to stagger CP and Blake then you need to always have CP and Blake OR Lance and DJ. Lance and DJ together solves a bunch of problems.
Lance and DJ need time when Blake and CP are off the floor. Those two can dominate if given just the same freedom that Rivers,Crawford, and Smith has.
Let Lance stay in his small role while on the floor with Blake and CP and then let him and Dj get time to run the offense with the "bench".
This idea of five bench players at a time is stupid(more so when we are talking Crawford,Rivers,and Smith) and it will minimize Lance and Dj's potential.
Doc's love affair with the bench and Crawford/Rivers could cost this team a title.
Re: Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Thu Nov 5, 2015 8:49 pm
by gipper08
Re: Surrounding the Core 4 of the Starting Lineup
Posted: Fri Nov 6, 2015 12:11 am
by clip set
Lance's turnover rate is definitely high. He's been at 17-18% the last couple of years
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stephla01.html#advanced::noneThis year the highest team turnover rate in the league is the 76ers with 17.6% and last year it was the 76ers with 16%, so Lance is definitely way above league average in that regard. I like him with the starting lineup though.
http://bkref.com/tiny/rJOWIhttp://bkref.com/tiny/YgN6dOur bigger problem is that our staggered bench/starter units are basically wasting the utilization of our starters. You could see it last night with Austin, Jamal and Josh Smith even doing excessive ball handling in isolation with Blake still in the game. Too many of these possessions became turnovers for bad passes, picking up a dribble in no mans land, and/or having the shot clock run out. At the very least we should be going through Blake in the post if not running a high pick and roll while he's in with the bench. To have him basically spotted up on the weak side is essentially wasting his minutes in the game and just making him expend energy on defense, where he isn't bringing any game changing difference. An interesting combo may be something like Prigioni, Redick, Pierce, Smith, Griffin, where you could actually see a return on having starters playing with the bench, while resting other starters. Depending on the opposing bench lineup, we may not give up too much defensively.