RUMOR: Doc On The Hot Seat

Wammy Giveaway · Post #1 » by **Wammy Giveaway** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:24 am

Via Justin Russo, the man who did some sleuthing on the Clipper branding:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/FlyByKnite/status/679501080980357121[/tweet]

If Clippers have a third 2nd round exit, he's out. Both jobs.

EDIT: Can somebody change the icon of the post logo to an important sign? After a post is made, I can no longer revise the icon.

Roscoe Sheed · Post #2 » by **Roscoe Sheed** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:46 am

Barring injuries to CP3 or Blake this is a reasonable ultimatum. Doc hasn't been nearly as good as I expected as a coach. He had no track record as a GM so I had no idea what to expect, but many of his coaching decisions have been suspect. Also, why is that nearly every player he acquires plays worse than their normal level of play? At some point the blame has be directed at him.

DLaren · Post #3 » by **DLaren** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:19 am

Why wait?

Assuming this rumor is true (doubtful), they might-as-well start the interview process now because this team isn't getting to the conference-finals (have you seen what OKC, the Warriors, & Spurs are doing?)

I just don't understand how a franchise that has never won anything can feel like it's in a position to fire a coach every 2-years...*hint: that's why we've never won anything*.

Like, what 'standard of excellence' is Doc not living up to that the Clippers are known for having? What championship players do we have that Doc is holding back? And will there be other marquee coaches lining-up to coach this team knowing he'll be sent packing after a couple of seasons?

I like to ask questions I already know the answer to...

If nothing else, we'll get to see what kind of man Ballmer is...does he ride out the tough times, or does he throw the captain overboard the minute we hit a few bumpy waves? A question I don't yet know the answer to.

Wammy Giveaway · Post #4 » by **Wammy Giveaway** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:56 am

DLaren wrote:Like, what 'standard of excellence' is Doc not living up to that the Clippers are known for having?

This is a stretch on my part, but I think the thing that might get Doc Rivers fired on the spot is if he tries to trade the Clipper's personal draft picks in Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan. In fact, I predict that may be what Doc does in order to keep his job.

It's kind of like the situation with the Sacramento Kings and DeMarcus Cousins. They're afraid that if they trade Griffin and/or Jordan, the Clippers will be forced back into a rebuild with no hope of ever winning a title, making the Finals, or getting to the conference finals. The Clippers love Griffin so much for how his highlight reel plays resurrected the franchise and helped gave them a leg-up in trading for Chris Paul before the Lakers could rebound (it also helped that then-commissioner David Stern was involved). Jordan is the only longest tenured Clipper. Take those two away, and the Clippers will be heartbroken and devastated.

After the first round loss to the Grizzlies in 2013, Vinny Del Negro was cooking up a couple trades to bring in superstars Dwight Howard and Kevin Garnett using Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan. He hoped that those two could save his job. Clippers caught word, and Vinny was immediately released.

Loyalty for guiding the franchise through the Donald Sterling scandal is what rewarded Doc Rivers with a dual role contract. Loyalty may end up being their undoing.

Ranma · Post #5 » by **Ranma** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:01 am

DLaren wrote:Why wait?

Assuming this rumor is true (doubtful), they might-as-well start the interview process now because this team isn't getting to the conference-finals (have you seen what OKC, the Warriors, & Spurs are doing?)

I just don't understand how a franchise that has never won anything can feel like it's in a position to fire a coach every 2-years...*hint: that's why we've never won anything*.

Like, what 'standard of excellence' is Doc not living up to that the Clippers are known for having? What championship players do we have that Doc is holding back? And will there be other marquee coaches lining-up to coach this team knowing he'll be sent packing after a couple of seasons?

I like to ask questions I already know the answer to...

If nothing else, we'll get to see what kind of man Ballmer is...does he ride out the tough times, or does he throw the captain overboard the minute we hit a few bumpy waves? A question I don't yet know the answer to.

Come on, DLaren. If you think what is happening is good enough, then that is exactly the type of attitude that has plagued the Clippers throughout the franchise's history by having such low expectations and being satisfied with just spinning our wheels without going anywhere. He was brought in to bring a championship. Period.

Despite being handed Griffin, Paul, Jordan, and Bledsoe, he has yet to make any significant progress. Vinny Del Negro was always supposed to be the stopgap coach and yet Doc has accomplished just as much as he has in only going as far as the 2nd round of the playoffs. He was brought in with higher expectations than VDN and has woefully failed to even exceed that.

During Doc's tenure, the Clippers have squandered draft picks, failed to develop young players outside of blowing smoke up DJ's butt, hasn't improved the team defense, hasn't built a complete roster with solid bench depth or fits to his own system, still can't even put out a complete and stable starting 5, can't close out games, and don't compete more often than not. This is all highlighted by the fact that we choked against the Rockets by blowing a 3-1 postseason series lead and that was not even an isolated incident for Doc as that also happened to him during his time with the Magic. He is the only coach in NBA history to "accomplish" this feat of shame twice.

Of course, everybody wants stability but not firing a guy just because the organization hasn't stuck with bad coaches for a while is more stagnant thinking than a stable approach. Since Doc became one of the highest paid coaches in the NBA and had been empowered with both GM and coaching responsibilities, other coaches have made significantly more progress in their respective situations in short order despite not having his advantages: Steve Kerr, Brad Stevens, Jeff Hornacek, and Mike Budenholzer. Heck, even Phil Jackson is doing a better job as GM than what Doc has done for us in that particular role.

Just because Doc may be better than some Clippers coaches of the past, it doesn't mean he's done a good or even adequate job. Even Elgin Baylor had some hits as GM and Dunleavy has had more cohesive units. We have to hold him to a higher standard and expect more. He wasn't hired (and paid) to work on a rebuilding project. He was brought in to get results and get them quickly. Even he used to acknowledge as much before it became more convenient for him to make excuses.

The sad thing is that Doc has been slowly making progress with his coaching decisions and even personnel moves, but they are still quite lacking. His sludging progress as coach and GM has followed a similar path to DeAndre Jordan's free-throw shooting, except DJ has taken more of a step back this season.

Doc may be a good coach, but his role as GM undermines his own efforts. Quite frankly, he's gotten way too much credit for his lone championship ring when he was assisted by the likes of Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rajon Rondo, Tom Thibodeau, and even Danny Ainge.

If you're happy with mediocrity, then good luck with that. Just don't expect the rest of us to be as forgiving.

p.s. Hiring a coach and GM mid-season does nothing for us right now. It's unfair to expect anyone to come in and undo the mess and fix problems while trying to win during the season. For better or worse, this is Doc's show for the rest of the season. If you want some suggestions for interview candidates for the GM position, I'd refer back to the Clippers GM / President of Basketball Operations thread.

Ranma · Post #6 » by **Ranma** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:21 am

J.A. Adande, ESPN.com (12/22/15)

For now, coach Doc Rivers is using a chisel rather than a sledgehammer. He didn't play Josh Smith on Monday, turning to seldom-used big man Cole Aldrich instead. The other players had basically subtweeted their displeasure with Smith (and all the uncertainty that comes with playing alongside him) through the media, with several quotes discussing the need for people to know their roles.
...

"The great teams are able to bring it every night, no matter who they are playing against," Paul said. "That's why the Spurs, Warriors, and those types of teams have the record that they do. For us, we have had different lineups every night and different guys in and out, but that is part of fielding a great team. That's what we are trying to do here."

So yeah, there are inconsistent rotations to match the inconsistent efforts.

Clippers Appear Destined to be Stuck in the Middle

mattd13 · Post #7 » by **mattd13** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:19 pm

I believe doc has a number of outstanding coaches on his staff. he has to start listening to their input. I do not see him being replaced at this time. you have to put of this on the players. I see 3 players bringing it every night, cp3, jj, and blake. the rest not so much. the biggest disappointment are dj, jamal, and josh. I knew lance was a bust.

madmaxmedia · Post #8 » by **madmaxmedia** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:49 pm

In addition to everything Ranma said, you also have to keep in mind this is a new (rich) owner who actually wants to win, not the old owner who just wanted to pinch pennies and impress bimbos at the stadium.

I didn't really have a great impression of Ballmer from Microsoft, but I bet it would be an absolute blast to sit next to him at a Clipper game.

nickhx2 · Post #9 » by **nickhx2** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:42 pm

sludgemaster doc rivers

honestly i think you don't fire him midseason or anything. but unless he changes his approach in the offseason (an actual embrace of analytics would have told doc any number of things we've known since game 10), among other things, he isn't progressing this team.

nickhx2 · Post #10 » by **nickhx2** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:59 pm

DLaren wrote:Why wait?

Assuming this rumor is true (doubtful), they might-as-well start the interview process now because this team isn't getting to the conference-finals (have you seen what OKC, the Warriors, & Spurs are doing?)

I just don't understand how a franchise that has never won anything can feel like it's in a position to fire a coach every 2-years...*hint: that's why we've never won anything*.

Like, what 'standard of excellence' is Doc not living up to that the Clippers are known for having? What championship players do we have that Doc is holding back? And will there be other marquee coaches lining-up to coach this team knowing he'll be sent packing after a couple of seasons?

I like to ask questions I already know the answer to...

If nothing else, we'll get to see what kind of man Ballmer is...does he ride out the tough times, or does he throw the captain overboard the minute we hit a few bumpy waves? A question I don't yet know the answer to.

There is no one reason we've never won a championship. But if you want to play it like that and say it's about coaching stability then I can just as echo your illogical narrative with some of my own. We've never won anything because we don't have a coach who can win it all. Mine makes more sense than yours, though. Even if both are illogical.

But the reality is this. Doc came to this team with mostly the the same core. He's taken it nowhere. You argue that it's the core that is why doc can't win. Yet all evidence overwhelmingly points to doc being the reason. His love affair with a decrepit jamal crawford. His insistence on not wanting to maintain an offensive system for his second unit. His obsession with small ball without the right personnel. His general disinterest in analytics and using it to help the team. Or how about his canceling of practices when the team is in desperate need of it? I could go on.

The reality goes even further than that to a very big picture. Doc took over the personnel duties too. And since he's joined the team he's butchered just about every move he's made for the team. He decimated the roster's already thin depth, traded away players who the team DESPERATELY NEED STILL, threw draft picks away to get rid of those players, and has brought in useless retreads in their place EVERY SINGLE YEAR HE HAS BEEN HERE. Yet you somehow seem to think that doc is a saint and he has no role in the team's failures, and that it's all on our stars. Just to remind you, cp3 has been the best PG of his generation and blake is now the best PF in the league.

Doc doesn't have a standard of excellence. Get real. The guy has done nothing but stumble all over himself since he's been here.

Post #11 » by **og15** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:40 am

If true, this isn't fair in terms of the coaching perspective, but it is quite fair in terms of the GM perspective. Since he is both, then there is no way to escape the pressure of one or the other.

It is also understandable since Balmer did not bring in Doc, he inherited him, and you could assume that after a while he would be interested in bringing his own people if the success he desired didn't come.

What I don't like about this is that pressure like this leads to panic moves. Of course panic moves for teams usually means trading young players and/or draft picks for older ones, but since the Clippers don't really have any young players we are worried about being traded, we won't have that.

Still, panic moves is a fear, but on the bright side, having to make some drastic changes might be a positive. I've mentioned it before that I'm not a person that is against trading DJ for the right return, and maybe this is a pressure that might force that. I mentioned in the trade thread that if Al Horford was an option for who knows what reason, I'd be all over that. Not sure that is real though.

Anyways, either way, this isn't something that is relevant until the end of the season.

LACtdom · Post #12 » by **LACtdom** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:44 pm

To be fair, Doc has had more chances than most coaches get (McHale getting fired early in the season because of a losing streak). I've seen coaches given less time to prove themselves and have also seen coaches win COTY or set franchise records and get fired (George Karl, Lionel Hollins, etc).

Post #13 » by **QRich3** » Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:36 am

So, other than blogging for SBN (a very crappy site from what I've read on there, which is not much admittedly), what has Justin Russo done for me to take something he's been told seriously?

Wammy Giveaway · Post #14 » by **Wammy Giveaway** » Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:59 am

QRich3 wrote:So, other than blogging for SBN (a very crappy site from what I've read on there, which is not much admittedly), what has Justin Russo done for me to take something he's been told seriously?

Panic Over Patience: A Logo Story

Despite my issues with him, he's really good. He's slowly becoming a Clipper insider.

Post #15 » by **QRich3** » Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:08 am

Oh ok, if he broke the thing about Zucker outsourcing the logo from the Heat, that's been confirmed by Lowe and other national writers. I'll still take this with a pinch of salt since he doesn't have a track record of reliable sources, but I guess it's at least at rumor level. Thanks Wammy.

wco81 · Post #16 » by **wco81** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:45 am

Didn't Doc get a new contract just last year? Though certainly Ballmer has the deep pockets to do whatever he wants.

I noticed there's a lot of discussion about free agents and trades but not so much about draftees. Seems Clippers haven't had a key player out of the draft since Blake. Not that the draft is as key in the NBA as it is in the NFL but with the cap, production from players on rookie contracts helps a lot.

Does Ballmer have strong ideas about the direction of the team? I think he was ousted at MS and it was a very emotional ordeal for him, even though he literally had FU money and didn't need to put up with anything he didn't want to.

It seems he was looking for what to do with the rest of his life when the Clippers opportunity came up. He obviously knew Paul Allen but he didn't seem to have particular passion for sports until the idea of buying a high-profile team kind of snapped him out of his funk.

At the time he bought the Clippers, they were considered one of the top contenders but now they're perceived as in the second or third tier of teams. During his time as CEO, MS was accused of having internal rivalries which hurt its ability to compete with other companies in areas like mobile and search. So he's been criticized for allowing some division chiefs to protect their units interests at the cost of the company's overall interests. He wasn't really known for firing people for underperforming.

That's not to say his business past is indicative of what he'll do as Clippers owner.

MartinToVaught · Post #17 » by **MartinToVaught** » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:54 am

DLaren wrote:Why wait?

Assuming this rumor is true (doubtful), they might-as-well start the interview process now because this team isn't getting to the conference-finals (have you seen what OKC, the Warriors, & Spurs are doing?)

I just don't understand how a franchise that has never won anything can feel like it's in a position to fire a coach every 2-years...*hint: that's why we've never won anything*.

Like, what 'standard of excellence' is Doc not living up to that the Clippers are known for having? What championship players do we have that Doc is holding back? And will there be other marquee coaches lining-up to coach this team knowing he'll be sent packing after a couple of seasons?

I like to ask questions I already know the answer to...

If nothing else, we'll get to see what kind of man Ballmer is...does he ride out the tough times, or does he throw the captain overboard the minute we hit a few bumpy waves? A question I don't yet know the answer to.

So just give up and accept mediocrity because the team used to be Sixers-level bad under completely different ownership, coaches, and players, then? I'm glad you don't own the franchise. :noway:

Ranma · Post #18 » by **Ranma** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:34 pm

Hoops23 · Post #19 » by **Hoops23** » Mon Jan 4, 2016 6:00 am

Is it true that the reason Austin Rivers is getting minutes because of his father?
if its true, then fire Doc Rivers..

Worm122 · Post #20 » by **Worm122** » Mon Jan 4, 2016 11:45 am

Fire Doc and hire Bud.