Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas)

[Ranma]

I thought most guys get a rib removed to relieve the pressure on their nerve when they have thoracic outlet syndrome?

The article and image (while pretty funny), are exactly what ive been talking about. The 76ers have done Fultz no favors, and have not really backed him up despite all this "misinformation" (not my words). Many around him believe he needs surgery, and still do.

If it is thoracic outlet syndrome, then based on the fairly limited MLB case studies, surgery should be the last resort. While things may be different since it's just shooting a basketball compared to throwing a baseball really hard and Fultz would likely benefit more from getting the surgery at a young age compared to most of the aforementioned baseball players, surgery to remove a rib would be the last option to go to after physical rehab.

Practically all of professional baseball players who've had the procedure don't fully recover in terms of having the strength to recapture their previous full velocity. The one notable success cited in a recent Ringer article is Mike Foltynewicz, who had a rib removed to alleviate TOS in September 2015 when he was 23 years of age.

There's something amiss about this whole situation whether it's from a possible misdiagnosis and cover-up by the 76ers organization or some reckless behavior and shady manipulation by Fultz's camp or maybe both. So if what Tucson Clip is relaying is true, then it comes off as highly suspicious that "many around" Fultz are so quick to think that he needs surgery when that should be the last resort for the TOS diagnosis they sought multiple opinions for. Piecing all these things together, Fultz's camp comes off as ill-informed, especially with them claiming that they're getting "misinformation" from the Sixers.

[TucsonClip]

Like Sindarius, Fultz was one of those guys who hugged the college 3-pt line, not one of those who ignored it. Whether or not it hurt his shoulder [it hurt mine], he's still not proven he can hit it.

If there’s one thing that could unravel his game as a pro, it would be his shot not translating. It’s not exactly the same species of skepticism as the concern trolling over Ball’s shooting form, but there’s at least some reason to wonder if Fultz will be as lights-out from deep in the NBA. His range doesn’t extend far beyond the college line, and his release is on the slow side. Just as concerning, he shot 64.9 percent on foul shots, which ESPN Insider’s Kevin Pelton pointed out is a slightly better predictor of NBA 3-point shooting ability than college 3-point percentage on its own — and Fultz wasn’t overwhelming enough from 3 (41.3 percent) to make up for the free throws.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-makes-markelle-fultz-an-nba-draft-favorite/

And he did also stink in all the other areas, so sez me and Marcus. I've just seen nothing so far that gives me confidence he'll become a star player, and right now he's a basket case.

He stunk in other areas because nobody has to respect his pull up game, which was one of his biggest strengths. I also dont think he stunk defensively, but weve disagreed on Fultz from the jump, so ill move on.

[TucsonClip]

If it is thoracic outlet syndrome, then based on the fairly limited MLB case studies, surgery should be the last resort. While things may be different since it's just shooting a basketball compared to throwing a baseball really hard and Fultz would likely benefit more from getting the surgery at a young age compared to most of the aforementioned baseball players, surgery to remove a rib would be the last option to go to after physical rehab.

Practically all of professional baseball players who've had the procedure don't fully recover in terms of having the strength to recapture their previous full velocity. The one notable success cited in a recent Ringer article is Mike Foltynewicz, who had a rib removed to alleviate TOS in September 2015 when he was 23 years of age.

There's something amiss about this whole situation whether it's from a possible misdiagnosis and cover-up by the 76ers organization or some reckless behavior and shady manipulation by Fultz's camp or maybe both. So if what Tucson Clip is relaying is true, then it comes off as highly suspicious that "many around" Fultz are so quick to think that he needs surgery when that should be the last resort for the TOS diagnosis they sought multiple opinions for. Piecing all these things together, Fultz's camp comes off as ill-informed, especially with them claiming that they're getting "misinformation" from the Sixers.

To clarify, the "misinformation" quote was about people saying hes a head case, hes not hurt, its all mental.

I have no idea if this syndrome is the correct diagnosis, but I was told some around him believed he needs surgery and that it was clear it was a nerve issue in his shoulder. No idea of that is because of this syndrome, or just in some way to relieve some sort of stress on said nerve impacting his shoulder.

[esqtvd]

Like Sindarius, Fultz was one of those guys who hugged the college 3-pt line, not one of those who ignored it. Whether or not it hurt his shoulder [it hurt mine], he's still not proven he can hit it.

If there’s one thing that could unravel his game as a pro, it would be his shot not translating. It’s not exactly the same species of skepticism as the concern trolling over Ball’s shooting form, but there’s at least some reason to wonder if Fultz will be as lights-out from deep in the NBA. His range doesn’t extend far beyond the college line, and his release is on the slow side. Just as concerning, he shot 64.9 percent on foul shots, which ESPN Insider’s Kevin Pelton pointed out is a slightly better predictor of NBA 3-point shooting ability than college 3-point percentage on its own — and Fultz wasn’t overwhelming enough from 3 (41.3 percent) to make up for the free throws.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-makes-markelle-fultz-an-nba-draft-favorite/

And he did also stink in all the other areas, so sez me and Marcus. I've just seen nothing so far that gives me confidence he'll become a star player, and right now he's a basket case.

He stunk in other areas because nobody has to respect his pull up game, which was one of his biggest strengths. I also dont think he stunk defensively, but weve disagreed on Fultz from the jump, so ill move on.

In his report on the Celtics game, Marcus Hayes said Fultz even also passed up contact at the rim. It's not that I disagreed with your assessment of him coming out of college, it's that I shared the same concern about the 3-ball as fivethirtyeight.com did [see above].

So, OK move on. We shall see.

[esqtvd]

LATE ADD: Diagnosis shopping? Give us anything but the 'yips.'

With physical therapy being the next course of action for Fultz in his rehab, we spoke with Josh Sabol on Wednesday. Sabol is a doctor of physical therapy and a sports certified specialist who works for The PrivatGym in Philadelphia.

Why didn't the Sixers diagnose this as TOS?

As has been mentioned, TOS is much more common in baseball pitchers than in basketball players. Sabol said this is because of the "repetitive, violent motion" pitchers use. While a jump shot is repetitive, it could hardly be described as a "violent motion."

This may be the reason the Sixers - and a host of other reported specialists - didn't reach this diagnosis.

"With a basketball player, that's not going to be at the top of your list," Sabol said in a phone interview. "Personally, I don't think [the Sixers] missed it or misdiagnosed him. I will tell you that the symptoms of thoracic outlet syndrome can be very variable. You can see one patient that has these symptoms and the other person has totally different symptoms but it's all classified under thoracic outlet syndrome. That's the other thing that makes the diagnosis a little more tricky."

10-plus specialists?

Fultz has seen over 10 specialists over the past year. It does seem odd that through all the evaluations, this hadn't come up (according to Clark, one of the specialists mentioned TOS as a possibility but said it shouldn't stop Fultz from playing).

The circumstances are odd.

"It's surprising that it took [10 specialists] to get to the end diagnosis that they're hanging onto," Sabol said. "He's spent more time in doctor's office over the past two years than most of us have ever. That's why it was surprising that they come out with this diagnosis because you would think somewhere along the line, somebody would've at least mentioned this."


Fultz was diagnosed with scapular imbalance last season. He then missed 68 games of his rookie season. While Sabol said the term scapular imbalance is pretty vague as far as medical terminology, he did have an interesting way of defining it - especially for those who think Fultz's issue could just be the "yips."

Here's where things get more confusing. Fultz dealt with the scapular imbalance and missed time last season. This offseason, he claimed to be healthy and reportedly took 150,000 jumpers with trainer Drew Hanlen.

If the thoracic outlet syndrome has been the issue since last year, how could he have gotten that work in? How would he have hit four threes in his first seven games to start this season?

"There was a point during this season where he was healthy, he was playing and he kind of worked out the kinks in his shot, but then all of the sudden he started to decline again," Sabol said. "That's where things get confusing. His reported symptoms last season didn't sound like TOS. A scenario where he had TOS last season and it went away without mention of that diagnosis, then all of the sudden came back, doesn't seem like a common scenario. If it's truly TOS, I believe that is something that developed recently."

Fultz will now begin physical therapy with hopes of returning to the court. Sabol said it'll likely be a mix of soft tissue work to stop the nerve from being impinged, and since TOS affects the neck as well, breathing exercises and better positioning/posture could help.

https://sports.yahoo.com/whats-next-markelle-fultz-one-201509208.html

[Ranma]

To clarify, the "misinformation" quote was about people saying hes a head case, hes not hurt, its all mental.

I have no idea if this syndrome is the correct diagnosis, but I was told some around him believed he needs surgery and that it was clear it was a nerve issue in his shoulder. No idea of that is because of this syndrome, or just in some way to relieve some sort of stress on said nerve impacting his shoulder.

In a recent podcast with Tim Bontemps, Zach Lowe talks about the Fultz situation and I have to say that I agree with his take. While Lowe gives Fultz the benefit of the doubt in believing Fultz when he says that he's experiencing pain, he also notes that this doesn't preclude there being something mental going on as well. It's noted that everyone thinks highly of Fultz including apparently everyone in the 76ers organization and it seems like a matter of perspective with the lack of trust between the two parties.

Having said that, people around the league have doubts that what Fultz is going through is not primarily mental. He went through a couple of series of doctors and none could find any structural damage to his shoulder and that the TOS diagnosis only came about by default as a process of exclusion since nothing else was found and pain was associated in that area. Fultz's camp seems to be throwing around the term "nerve damage" when Lowe notes that the team is adamant that doctors have found no signs of such an ailment. Fultz is literally the first basketball or at least NBA player to be diagnosed with TOS.

Everyone wants to believe Fultz and for him to do well in his recovery but there is legitimate doubt given the mysterious circumstances. Lowe blames both camps for making this a bigger story than it should be because of the lack of information forthcoming from both sides. The Sixers' handling of injuries to Ben Simmons and Zhaire Smith paints them in a bad light, but the Fultz camp's inclination to jump to conclusions without substantiated support has their handling of matters suspect.

Personally, I find it quite odd that, after being cleared medically by team physicians, Fultz was previously saying that he was fine and able to perform for sustained minutes, then all of a sudden he's come down with a mystery ailment. Now, after losing his starting role to T.J. McConnell, he has his agent-attorney seek an alternative diagnosis that allows him to rehab for a few weeks away from the team and scrutiny of demanding fans in Philadelphia.

[Ranma]

[TucsonClip]

All I know for a fact is that his injury was well known last year. Why it was brushed off and covered up, by both sides, doesnt really make sense.

That said, one scenario does make some sense. All the attention around this has gotten to his head, or those in his camp. Because of this, he/they are refusing surgery in order to work through the madness and corral some those those who didnt protect him in/to the media, and to shut the rest up.

Either way, I was told early last fall his shoulder was injured, hurt, not well, whatever you want to call it. The thought was he would need surgery to fix whatever was wrong. That still remains true.

[pad300]

Q's about 2019 FA
1) Will the Clippers renounce Boban's bird rights as part of their FA period next summer (to help make cap space for 1 or more max FA)?
2) What contract would you be willing to put in front of Boban to retain him? (ie $/yr, length, and either retained Bird Right or exception used to sign him...)

[Ranma]

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[ThunderBolt]

Hypothetical situation- Lets say LAC land one free agent. If the offer were on the table would the Clippers trade SGA for Paul George? Is there any scenario where LAC would be willing to do this? Maybe Harris leaves for a max offer somewhere else or something? I don't think OKC would realistically do this but on a slow day at work I was just thinking of young players I like if okc were to rebuild.

[Quake Griffin]

Hypothetical situation- Lets say LAC land one free agent. If the offer were on the table would the Clippers trade SGA for Paul George? Is there any scenario where LAC would be willing to do this? Maybe Harris leaves for a max offer somewhere else or something? I don't think OKC would realistically do this but on a slow day at work I was just thinking of young players I like if okc were to rebuild.

Speaking for myself and not the rest of the forum.

I'm not trading for a Tier 2 star unless I have a Tier 1 star in the fold. I'm personally against even signing Tier 2 stars if there is no Tier 1 star in the fold as I can't recall any time that a tier 2 star has attracted a Tier 1 star to their franchise.

Congrats to Paul George on the great start to the year. He's playing very well even for who he is.
But no.

[Ranma]

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[Ranma]

Trading Rome for essentially Vucevic's Bird rights just about before unrestricted free agency is a bad idea.

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[Quake Griffin]

Has Vucevic learned to defend yet?


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[esqtvd]

With Jimmy Butler and Joel Embiid being mediocre 3-pt shooters and Ben Simmons having no shot at all beyond 10 feet, the Sixers miss Marco Bellinelli/Ersan İlyasova/Dario Saric badly for their height and the spacing their 3-pt shooting provided. Gallo is perfect for them if they want to make a run this year.


I'm not terribly interested in Fultz, and Wilson Chandler's expiring would only be for sal cap purposes, but the Sixers would also include something like their 2019 FRP, Furkan Korkmaz [who will be a RFA], some 2nd rounders [they have many], and maybe [especially] Landry Shamet, a rookie who's been raising some eyebrows, cracking their rotation of late and shooting 40% from distance.

If I'm Philly, I'm already making an offer along these lines, though I dunno if the Clips take it. Losing Gallo would probably say goodbye to 2018-19.

[This trade works @ RealGM trade checker.]

[Ranma]

Unless Cousins is coming on the cheap and healthy, I'm not at all interested. He's not a great system fit, but he's obviously talented assuming he's fully recovered from his injury. Personally, I'd rather take my chances developing a young prospect through the draft like Moses Brown out of UCLA in the second round.

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[Ranma]

Much like Tobias Harris previously, I've always wanted to acquire Robin Lopez to stabilize our center position during the Lob City days in order to apply resources committed to DeAndre Jordan to other areas on the roster. Lopez will be an unrestricted free agent this upcoming off-season, so I hope to sign him to an inexpensive deal using an exception, however, he's earning just over $14 million for this season.

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[Ranma]

I'd consider taking a flier on Cameron Payne to fill the Jawun Evans role if and once he passes waivers if we're able to deal Teodosic away.

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