What will it take for Ballmer to admit that the GM/Coach Doc experiment has failed?

MartinToVaught · Post #281 » by **MartinToVaught** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:53 am

So... Doc just traded the greatest Clipper ever for a bunch of trash. Anyone still want to argue that the majority of fans and analysts are wrong and that Doc is really a good GM?

wassuphomeboy · Post #282 » by **wassuphomeboy** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:54 am

It was a catastrophic organizational failure top to bottom that this even happened in the 1st place.

Won't say Doc necessarily wasn't involved, but even if he was, the owner did sign off on it.

This goes beyond Doc.

Post #283 » by **og15** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:29 am

MartinToVaught wrote:So... Doc just traded the greatest Clipper ever for a bunch of trash. Anyone still want to argue that the majority of fans and analysts are wrong and that Doc is really a good GM?

We all know Doc is no longer the GM, no need for us to be disingenuous. I think it's fine for us to admit that West signed off on this and also disagree with him. The man is not above being disagreed with. We'll see how it pans out in the end, but my initial reaction is one of disappointment.

Neddy · Post #284 » by **Neddy** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:31 am

MartinToVaught wrote:So... Doc just traded the greatest Clipper ever for a bunch of trash. Anyone still want to argue that the majority of fans and analysts are wrong and that Doc is really a good GM?

what are you talking about? this is Jerry West all the way, baby. trust me, this is the right move. blake won't get any younger or healthier, on a monster deal and performs like Robin rather than the Batman. his trade value was not going to increase unless he suddenly becomes the next MVP candidate. in next 2 drafts, we have 3 firsts and 3 seconds, and we will probably add more.

this deal, is nothing more than trading for more assets for the next deal, at least in case of Avery and even possibly all of them. Im wishing for the DJ/Lou package to now include or substitute Avery for that Nets pick. :pray:

Neddy · Post #285 » by **Neddy** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:31 am

og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:So... Doc just traded the greatest Clipper ever for a bunch of trash. Anyone still want to argue that the majority of fans and analysts are wrong and that Doc is really a good GM?
We all know Doc is no longer the GM, no need for us to be disingenuous. I think it's fine for us to admit that West signed off on this and also disagree with him. The man is not above being disagreed with. We'll see how it pans out in the end, but my initial reaction is one of disappointment.

man, you beat me to it while I was still typing.

Post #286 » by **og15** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:43 am

Neddy wrote:
og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:So... Doc just traded the greatest Clipper ever for a bunch of trash. Anyone still want to argue that the majority of fans and analysts are wrong and that Doc is really a good GM?
We all know Doc is no longer the GM, no need for us to be disingenuous. I think it's fine for us to admit that West signed off on this and also disagree with him. The man is not above being disagreed with. We'll see how it pans out in the end, but my initial reaction is one of disappointment.

man, you beat me to it while I was still typing.

Yea, I know MTV is a huge Blake guy, so I get that he will spin everything in light of that, even when no spinning is needed, but come on. We can't just flip flop based on whether we like the move or not as to whether Doc has influence or not. If the Blake trade is put on Doc, then he's also credited for the assets gotten back in the Paul trade, Teodosic, Ty Wallace, deciding to play youngs guys more, but oh no, all those things are West, Doc just did all the things that we don't like. If we're just picking and choosing based on the narrative we want whether Doc is exerting influence or is having influence exerted upon him, then it's just illogical.

MartinToVaught · Post #287 » by **MartinToVaught** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:43 am

I'm not spinning anything at all. It's obvious that the CP3 trade was a West move and the Blake trade is a Doc move. That's why the CP3 trade loaded us up with lots of quality assets, whereas the Blake trade was a panic move that gave us very little in return and brought in yet another former Celtic from Doc's time there.

Post #288 » by **og15** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:54 am

MartinToVaught wrote:I'm not spinning anything at all. It's obvious that the CP3 trade was a West move and the Blake trade is a Doc move. That's why the CP3 trade loaded us up with lots of quality assets, whereas the Blake trade was a panic move that gave us very little in return and brought in yet another former Celtic from Doc's time there.

You can believe whatever you want, but it's not logical, sorry

Basically you want us to believe that a CP3 trade that was made fairly quickly in order to be completed before free agency, and which they did because Paul didn't want to sign the contract offer, West was part of that, but when trading the teams biggest offseason resign, a guy meant to be a lifetime Clipper, a move they would have had to be thinking of for some time and had everyone in on, weighing in, well, they just had West on the sidelines and Doc is the one who was in the drivers seat. Then in addition, West is just saying "cool, whatever".

How is that believable?

mttwlsn16 · Post #289 » by **mttwlsn16** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:48 am

MartinToVaught wrote:I'm not spinning anything at all. It's obvious that the CP3 trade was a West move and the Blake trade is a Doc move. That's why the CP3 trade loaded us up with lots of quality assets, whereas the Blake trade was a panic move that gave us very little in return and brought in yet another former Celtic from Doc's time there.

Tobias Harris is 25 and just as good as anything we got in the CP trade. Whatever fits your agenda though homie. Never change.

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Quake Griffin · Post #290 » by **Quake Griffin** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:56 am

LOL.

Doc trading to player to facilitate a rebuild? Really?

If this is the new Doc...

Sign me up.

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Neddy · Post #291 » by **Neddy** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:09 am

MartinToVaught wrote:I'm not spinning anything at all. It's obvious that the CP3 trade was a West move and the Blake trade is a Doc move. That's why the CP3 trade loaded us up with lots of quality assets, whereas the Blake trade was a panic move that gave us very little in return and brought in yet another former Celtic from Doc's time there.

dude, CP3 trade was a CP3 move. he wanted to get out of town and he did, that's it. he was gracious enough to let us trade him rather than to simply lose him as a free agent. I do understand that Houston needed to dump salary which incidentally ended up doing us a favor and gave us a haul of assets, but still. that was not some genius move per se, but this particular move is.

JGOJustin · Post #292 » by **JGOJustin** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:27 am

Neddy wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:I'm not spinning anything at all. It's obvious that the CP3 trade was a West move and the Blake trade is a Doc move. That's why the CP3 trade loaded us up with lots of quality assets, whereas the Blake trade was a panic move that gave us very little in return and brought in yet another former Celtic from Doc's time there.

dude, CP3 trade was a CP3 move. he wanted to get out of town and he did, that's it. he was gracious enough to let us trade him rather than to simply lose him as a free agent. I do understand that Houston needed to dump salary which incidentally ended up doing us a favor and gave us a haul of assets, but still. that was not some genius move per se, but this particular move is.

Why do you even bother man lol

Clemenza · Post #293 » by **Clemenza** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:34 am

MartinToVaught wrote:I'm not spinning anything at all. It's obvious that the CP3 trade was a West move and the Blake trade is a Doc move. That's why the CP3 trade loaded us up with lots of quality assets, whereas the Blake trade was a panic move that gave us very little in return and brought in yet another former Celtic from Doc's time there.

Doc is ten thousand feet away from the front office at this point in his tenure with the Clipps. This is all Jerry West my friend. That consultant title is bullsh*t. He has all the power right now.

Clemenza · Post #294 » by **Clemenza** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:38 am

Neddy wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:I'm not spinning anything at all. It's obvious that the CP3 trade was a West move and the Blake trade is a Doc move. That's why the CP3 trade loaded us up with lots of quality assets, whereas the Blake trade was a panic move that gave us very little in return and brought in yet another former Celtic from Doc's time there.

dude, CP3 trade was a CP3 move. he wanted to get out of town and he did, that's it. he was gracious enough to let us trade him rather than to simply lose him as a free agent. I do understand that Houston needed to dump salary which incidentally ended up doing us a favor and gave us a haul of assets, but still. that was not some genius move per se, but this particular move is.

This wasn't CP3 being gracious or nice to us on his way out.. The trade was the only way he could go to Houston period. They had to shed salary like crazy to add Paul to the team. You don't think Paul would love to have Pat Bev and Montrez part of the team in Houston?

JGOJustin · Post #295 » by **JGOJustin** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:53 am

Clemenza wrote:
Neddy wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:I'm not spinning anything at all. It's obvious that the CP3 trade was a West move and the Blake trade is a Doc move. That's why the CP3 trade loaded us up with lots of quality assets, whereas the Blake trade was a panic move that gave us very little in return and brought in yet another former Celtic from Doc's time there.

dude, CP3 trade was a CP3 move. he wanted to get out of town and he did, that's it. he was gracious enough to let us trade him rather than to simply lose him as a free agent. I do understand that Houston needed to dump salary which incidentally ended up doing us a favor and gave us a haul of assets, but still. that was not some genius move per se, but this particular move is.

This wasn't CP3 being gracious or nice to us on his way out.. The trade was the only way he could go to Houston period. They had to shed salary like crazy to add Paul to the team. You don't think Paul would love to have Pat Bev and Montrez part of the team in Houston?

Yeah this is the biggest misnomer w/CP. That he "allowed for LAC to get something back from him" when really it was just Houston trying to find a way to get CP because they didn't have the space to outright sign him in Free Agency. If they did, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Post #296 » by **og15** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:07 pm

JGOJustin wrote:
Clemenza wrote:
Neddy wrote:
dude, CP3 trade was a CP3 move. he wanted to get out of town and he did, that's it. he was gracious enough to let us trade him rather than to simply lose him as a free agent. I do understand that Houston needed to dump salary which incidentally ended up doing us a favor and gave us a haul of assets, but still. that was not some genius move per se, but this particular move is.

This wasn't CP3 being gracious or nice to us on his way out.. The trade was the only way he could go to Houston period. They had to shed salary like crazy to add Paul to the team. You don't think Paul would love to have Pat Bev and Montrez part of the team in Houston?

Yeah this is the biggest misnomer w/CP. That he "allowed for LAC to get something back from him" when really it was just Houston trying to find a way to get CP because they didn't have the space to outright sign him in Free Agency. If they did, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Yup, it was a win-win situation. Houston would have had to give up two draft picks to move Anderson and have the ability to sign CP, which they didn't want to do, and Clippers would have lost Paul for nothing. Yes, it was good that Paul worked with the team on that, but it wasn't something out of pure altruism.

TheNewEra · Post #297 » by **TheNewEra** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:23 pm

How did Doc outlast Paul and Blake that really hurts.

Neddy · Post #298 » by **Neddy** » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:34 am

JGOJustin wrote:
Clemenza wrote:
Neddy wrote:
dude, CP3 trade was a CP3 move. he wanted to get out of town and he did, that's it. he was gracious enough to let us trade him rather than to simply lose him as a free agent. I do understand that Houston needed to dump salary which incidentally ended up doing us a favor and gave us a haul of assets, but still. that was not some genius move per se, but this particular move is.

This wasn't CP3 being gracious or nice to us on his way out.. The trade was the only way he could go to Houston period. They had to shed salary like crazy to add Paul to the team. You don't think Paul would love to have Pat Bev and Montrez part of the team in Houston?

Yeah this is the biggest misnomer w/CP. That he "allowed for LAC to get something back from him" when really it was just Houston trying to find a way to get CP because they didn't have the space to outright sign him in Free Agency. If they did, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

but, thanks to Houston needing to shed salary, we ended up with a nice package of assets and young, quality players. the end result here justify the means to get there.

wassuphomeboy · Post #299 » by **wassuphomeboy** » Fri Feb 2, 2018 10:10 pm

https://www.si.com/nba/2018/01/31/blake-griffin-trade-pistons-clippers-stan-van-gundy-doc-rivers?utm_campaign=sinow&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si

Doc was not involved in this trade and only became aware of it after it was finalized.

I know this is a very controversial trade, but just wanted to get a fact out there, and I know Doc has had his share of controversial decisions while he was a part of the front office(most of which I disagreed with), but I also don't want to falsely accuse him of something he had no part of, and he was also not behind the CP3 trade, as far as I'm aware of.

For what it's worth, I also think Doc has done a good job as coach this year with the roster he's had.

Wammy Giveaway · Post #300 » by **Wammy Giveaway** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:33 pm

Let's review the instances.

Strike 1: Doc scared off Tim Duncan back to the Spurs because having his family on planes would be a distraction to his game plan.

Strike 2: Doc was rumored to have rejected a superstar trade for Carmelo Anthony because he would be forced to give up his son.

One strike left. His next swing could be a base hit or a home run.

Strike 3: Doc denied the Celtics a trade for Chris Paul because he had too much respect for one of his former players and closest friends Monty Williams. This was in the 2011-12 lockout season, the year where David Stern vetoed the Lakers trade and the Clippers swooped in because of Sterling's relationship with the former commissioner.

Read on Twitter

Doc Rivers lets his personal emotions get in the way of business, any one of those moves could have been championship changing. Now there are rumors within NBA circles that if he gets fired this year or is let go, he will be "stealth-banned" by general managers around the league.

He's fighting for his NBA life.