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Chris Paul to the Rockets

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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#541 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 6, 2020 2:10 am

wco81 wrote:Watching game 7 Spurs at Clippers on NBA TV.

Didn’t see this game at the time.

Back and forth game all game long.

End of 3rd quarter CP3 banks in a 3. Blake comes over for a high 5.

CP3 leaves him hanging. He gives a 5 to other teammates and Blake still has his hand up. :D

Then they cut away.

They weren’t beefing back then were they?



Good call. That's how I remember Lob City--CP had his half of the court at the right elbow, Blake on the left in the block. Each would operate with separate teammates as the occasion arose but it never seemed to be a 5-man team out there.

I remember CP and Blake being a team the first year or so, but gradually drifting into separate orbits both on and off the court [except for their short-lived internet TV show]. Looking back, their teammates say there was no open hostility but the atmosphere was always kinda weird.

I think CP and BG, looking back, realize that they blew it and they should have found a way to make each other--and thus the team as a whole--better. The whole was always no more than the sum of its parts and sometimes less. There was no magic, no synergy, no 1+1=3.

Even on that last play, CP threw the ball in to Blake, got it back, and then hero-balled the win on what I consider a pretty lucky shot [see above]. Why I just can't get that sentimental about that team and I think they know they blew it too, because of their [relative] youth and egos. I think they wish they could do it all over again, but that ship has sailed.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#542 » by Quake Griffin » Wed Apr 8, 2020 1:42 pm

Oshey was just gathering talent in a talent cup. You had a slightly older, more competitive, more serious Chris trying to lead more goofy fun loving Blake and DeAndre to stardom. At the time, his best friend is dominating the league and winning championships and never missing the finals. I can only imagine what it's like to see your son's godfather go to 5,6,7 straight finals and you haven't lef tthe second round. I'm sure it weighed on him.

Nonetheless, tt never really looked like a true fit in Lob City and, imo, we shouldn't have been surprised it wasn't.

He would fit in much more with the more serious, championship minded Kawhi and PG.
Truly feel bad for this man. He deserved to play with a well run and class organization.

;t=2512s
Somewhere around the 35 minute mark he expresses his thoughts on Lob City and how he wishes he appreciated Blake more (hope Im citing him correctly....it's been a few days since I've watched this).
Clever reactions to aggressive situations

#NoMoreDocRiversScholarships
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#543 » by og15 » Thu Apr 9, 2020 5:48 pm

esqtvd wrote:
wco81 wrote:Watching game 7 Spurs at Clippers on NBA TV.

Didn’t see this game at the time.

Back and forth game all game long.

End of 3rd quarter CP3 banks in a 3. Blake comes over for a high 5.

CP3 leaves him hanging. He gives a 5 to other teammates and Blake still has his hand up. :D

Then they cut away.

They weren’t beefing back then were they?



Good call. That's how I remember Lob City--CP had his half of the court at the right elbow, Blake on the left in the block. Each would operate with separate teammates as the occasion arose but it never seemed to be a 5-man team out there.

I remember CP and Blake being a team the first year or so, but gradually drifting into separate orbits both on and off the court [except for their short-lived internet TV show]. Looking back, their teammates say there was no open hostility but the atmosphere was always kinda weird.

I think CP and BG, looking back, realize that they blew it and they should have found a way to make each other--and thus the team as a whole--better. The whole was always no more than the sum of its parts and sometimes less. There was no magic, no synergy, no 1+1=3.

Even on that last play, CP threw the ball in to Blake, got it back, and then hero-balled the win on what I consider a pretty lucky shot [see above]. Why I just can't get that sentimental about that team and I think they know they blew it too, because of their [relative] youth and egos. I think they wish they could do it all over again, but that ship has sailed.

As nice as this all sounds, them having more synergy would not have made up for the lacking the roster had vs their opponents.

Those teams with supposed lack of synergy had the best offense in the league in 13-14 and 14-15 while starting a SF that teams played off of on defense and in 14-15 having a bad bench. That 14-15 team had the league's best half court offense, this was the season GS won 67 games. The problems that persists are that they were very small at SG,, which since they were small at PG and lacked length at PF, that's a problem. Then they didn't have any quality backup SF's (Dudley was trash as a Clipper, no backup SF in 14-15), in general they did not have enough defensive talent and the quality bench depth was never there. If you want to add, even with Blake expanding his range to long mid-range, having one primary scoring big that needed space (Blake), but who had to be a spacer and another big that could only play at the rim limited their spacing.

Jamal Crawford did what he could with his skills, but he's the type of player that if you have to rely on to perform in the post-season, you're likely limiting yourself in terms of being a championship team. The team had two seasons where they had any chance, 13-14 and 14-15. In 14-15, Austin Rivers, fresh off New Orleans where he was looking like a bust was a key bench player. Did he shoot well in the playoffs overall? Yes, but he was still a bad defender, not because of effort or athleticism, but because of positioning, fouling, IQ. The Clippers when they were actually contending got the worst version of Austin Rivers that they had as he got better over the years. In 14-15 he was just a borderline NBA player and he was their 7th man and playing about 16-17 mpg in the playoffs for the games he came off the bench (started two due to Paul injury).

12-13, 15-16, 16-17 there was no chance of contending due to injuries, and of course if we're being real, in 12-13, DJ was still getting benched for Odom who was on drugs at the time, and Blake was not at his best, so that team was not going to beat SA, even if they stayed healthy, beat Memphis, then beat the injured OKC and got to the WCF.

I think sometimes that period is romanticized in the sense of "oh if they just fit better together, they would have done this or that". No, what should be said is, "if they had better talent and depth and then on the other hand, better health", then maybe, but simply having more synergy was not going to solve their issues. Paul and Griffin's synergy was quite good for their skills and their roster. Good synergy doesn't mean you must be the Warriors with players that are almost perfect fits or the 13-14 Spurs with shooters and passers all over the roster. Teams rarely have that. The Heat's synergy with Lebron/Wade/Bosh was never great, Clippers was better, but Heat had superior talent. The Thunder synergy with Durant/Westbrook/Harden and then just Durant/Westbrook was much worse, but they had size, defense and top level talent. Lebron/Irving/Love synergy, it wasn't bad, but nothing exceptional. Kyrie was basically just an catch and shoot or iso outlet for Lebron, they didn't play off each other in any special way, but they had Lebron a top 2-3 GOAT to most people and a lot of talent. George and Kawhi don't have any special synergy so far, in fact they might never have as good synergy as even those Clippers teams were able to get, but these current Clippers teams out-talent those teams (on both ends when I speak of talent) from top to bottom.

I've linked this before, but here's a long compilation of that 14-15 offense:


The thing was beautiful. They had great early offense options that could transition into multiple options. A quick seal transition option that can become a wing pick and roll, DHO with Redick or post up depending on the reads is just one example. If the early pass to Blake wasn't there you had DJ trailing and they could go into early pick and roll with CP/DJ. After an opponent score they could run another quick pick and roll option with CP/DJ when Blake is the trailer because the defense converging can give him an open shot (DJ as trailer there wouldn't make sense because he can't hit the shot). The way Paul and Blake were set up on opposite sides was for maximizing spacing whenever possible. When you run pick and roll with Blake, even if you pull DJ away from the basket, his man is going to stay close to the basket, so the lane is clogged, which is why sometimes they ran elbow pick and roll instead of high, so that Blake is already closer to the basket giving the defense less time to rotate. When you run pick and roll with DJ, his man now has to come out and guard, this opens up the floor more, and then if Blake's man on the opposite block helps, that opens up Blake who now has options, shoot, drive, find DJ rolling for a lob, find the corner shooter if their man converged to help on the rolling DJ.

We have to understand that when opponents are content playing off Matt Barnes, when they are content playing a little off Blake Griffin and having him shoot because DJ is clogging the lane. When the starting lineup has no other perimeter player who is a ball handler, and when the bench is limited in talent, then defenses can have moments where they muck things up and you have to go to individual talent. Most late game shots are not anything special when it comes to synergy, you're either having isolation or something mucky, so there's no surprise in the Clippers not doing some beautiful play to beat SA, but all series they were abusing SA with the high horns double pick and roll.

Sure you could have had better synergy with Paul and Griffin, and that better synergy would be on of these two things. 1) Blake has longer arms and can play center and protect the rim, so you have this:
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Andre Iguodala
Nikola Mirotic
Blake Griffin


Or, we stay in real life and Blake is who he is, and you have this:
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Robert Covington
Blake Griffin
Serge Ibaka

Suddenly the synergy gets better because the floor is spaced, the team is bigger, etc. I think it is unfair to say there was a synergy problem. They can only work with what they had skill wise and roster wise, and in terms of their skills and their roster, they did a very good job in meshing their games together, especially in that 14-15 season.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#544 » by esqtvd » Thu Apr 9, 2020 8:39 pm

og15 wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
wco81 wrote:Watching game 7 Spurs at Clippers on NBA TV.

Didn’t see this game at the time.

Back and forth game all game long.

End of 3rd quarter CP3 banks in a 3. Blake comes over for a high 5.

CP3 leaves him hanging. He gives a 5 to other teammates and Blake still has his hand up. :D

Then they cut away.

They weren’t beefing back then were they?



Good call. That's how I remember Lob City--CP had his half of the court at the right elbow, Blake on the left in the block. Each would operate with separate teammates as the occasion arose but it never seemed to be a 5-man team out there.

I remember CP and Blake being a team the first year or so, but gradually drifting into separate orbits both on and off the court [except for their short-lived internet TV show]. Looking back, their teammates say there was no open hostility but the atmosphere was always kinda weird.

I think CP and BG, looking back, realize that they blew it and they should have found a way to make each other--and thus the team as a whole--better. The whole was always no more than the sum of its parts and sometimes less. There was no magic, no synergy, no 1+1=3.

Even on that last play, CP threw the ball in to Blake, got it back, and then hero-balled the win on what I consider a pretty lucky shot [see above]. Why I just can't get that sentimental about that team and I think they know they blew it too, because of their [relative] youth and egos. I think they wish they could do it all over again, but that ship has sailed.

As nice as this all sounds, them having more synergy would not have made up for the lacking the roster had vs their opponents.

Those teams with supposed lack of synergy had the best offense in the league in 13-14 and 14-15 while starting a SF that teams played off of on defense and in 14-15 having a bad bench. That 14-15 team had the league's best half court offense, this was the season GS won 67 games. The problems that persists are that they were very small at SG,, which since they were small at PG and lacked length at PF, that's a problem. Then they didn't have any quality backup SF's (Dudley was trash as a Clipper, no backup SF in 14-15), in general they did not have enough defensive talent and the quality bench depth was never there. If you want to add, even with Blake expanding his range to long mid-range, having one primary scoring big that needed space (Blake), but who had to be a spacer and another big that could only play at the rim limited their spacing.

Jamal Crawford did what he could with his skills, but he's the type of player that if you have to rely on to perform in the post-season, you're likely limiting yourself in terms of being a championship team. The team had two seasons where they had any chance, 13-14 and 14-15. In 14-15, Austin Rivers, fresh off New Orleans where he was looking like a bust was a key bench player. Did he shoot well in the playoffs overall? Yes, but he was still a bad defender, not because of effort or athleticism, but because of positioning, fouling, IQ. The Clippers when they were actually contending got the worst version of Austin Rivers that they had as he got better over the years. In 14-15 he was just a borderline NBA player and he was their 7th man and playing about 16-17 mpg in the playoffs for the games he came off the bench (started two due to Paul injury).

12-13, 15-16, 16-17 there was no chance of contending due to injuries, and of course if we're being real, in 12-13, DJ was still getting benched for Odom who was on drugs at the time, and Blake was not at his best, so that team was not going to beat SA, even if they stayed healthy, beat Memphis, then beat the injured OKC and got to the WCF.

I think sometimes that period is romanticized in the sense of "oh if they just fit better together, they would have done this or that". No, what should be said is, "if they had better talent and depth and then on the other hand, better health", then maybe, but simply having more synergy was not going to solve their issues. Paul and Griffin's synergy was quite good for their skills and their roster. Good synergy doesn't mean you must be the Warriors with players that are almost perfect fits or the 13-14 Spurs with shooters and passers all over the roster. Teams rarely have that. The Heat's synergy with Lebron/Wade/Bosh was never great, Clippers was better, but Heat had superior talent. The Thunder synergy with Durant/Westbrook/Harden and then just Durant/Westbrook was much worse, but they had size, defense and top level talent. Lebron/Irving/Love synergy, it wasn't bad, but nothing exceptional. Kyrie was basically just an catch and shoot or iso outlet for Lebron, they didn't play off each other in any special way, but they had Lebron a top 2-3 GOAT to most people and a lot of talent. George and Kawhi don't have any special synergy so far, in fact they might never have as good synergy as even those Clippers teams were able to get, but these current Clippers teams out-talent those teams (on both ends when I speak of talent) from top to bottom.

I've linked this before, but here's a long compilation of that 14-15 offense:


The thing was beautiful. They had great early offense options that could transition into multiple options. A quick seal transition option that can become a wing pick and roll, DHO with Redick or post up depending on the reads is just one example. If the early pass to Blake wasn't there you had DJ trailing and they could go into early pick and roll with CP/DJ. After an opponent score they could run another quick pick and roll option with CP/DJ when Blake is the trailer because the defense converging can give him an open shot (DJ as trailer there wouldn't make sense because he can't hit the shot). The way Paul and Blake were set up on opposite sides was for maximizing spacing whenever possible. When you run pick and roll with Blake, even if you pull DJ away from the basket, his man is going to stay close to the basket, so the lane is clogged, which is why sometimes they ran elbow pick and roll instead of high, so that Blake is already closer to the basket giving the defense less time to rotate. When you run pick and roll with DJ, his man now has to come out and guard, this opens up the floor more, and then if Blake's man on the opposite block helps, that opens up Blake who now has options, shoot, drive, find DJ rolling for a lob, find the corner shooter if their man converged to help on the rolling DJ.

We have to understand that when opponents are content playing off Matt Barnes, when they are content playing a little off Blake Griffin and having him shoot because DJ is clogging the lane. When the starting lineup has no other perimeter player who is a ball handler, and when the bench is limited in talent, then defenses can have moments where they muck things up and you have to go to individual talent. Most late game shots are not anything special when it comes to synergy, you're either having isolation or something mucky, so there's no surprise in the Clippers not doing some beautiful play to beat SA, but all series they were abusing SA with the high horns double pick and roll.

Sure you could have had better synergy with Paul and Griffin, and that better synergy would be on of these two things. 1) Blake has longer arms and can play center and protect the rim, so you have this:
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Andre Iguodala
Nikola Mirotic
Blake Griffin


Or, we stay in real life and Blake is who he is, and you have this:
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Robert Covington
Blake Griffin
Serge Ibaka

Suddenly the synergy gets better because the floor is spaced, the team is bigger, etc. I think it is unfair to say there was a synergy problem. They can only work with what they had skill wise and roster wise, and in terms of their skills and their roster, they did a very good job in meshing their games together, especially in that 14-15 season.



All true, and good analysis, but nobody's saying they should have or could have won the whole thing, only that they could have been a better and more cohesive team and they are all admitting it now. And they did get worse in that respect as the years went on.

As for the stats, which were fine, the problem was always depth, yes--in no small part because the Big Three were pulling down almost 2/3 of the dough. But the problem was also that they were a 47-minute team. DJ's FT shooting made him a fatal liability in the crunch, and JJ's inability to D-up or score on anything but 3s [even at 45%] made him a bad bet when you only need 1 or 2 points. As for the 5th man, it's no wonder Doc in desperation would sometimes turn to Jamal, anything to get another option out there.

And as for CP, he was the best player but he wasn't a leader. There was never a feeling of OK guys, here's what we're gonna do. We got this.

When you're an MJ or a Kobe, you can be a prick because everybody knows you can put the team on your back and get the W. But CP was just a prick, and nobody's gonna follow a prick into hell. "Synergy" is more than Xs and Os. I think you can wave away that rah-rah stuff in other sports, but basketball isn't one of them. Doc always talks about "trust," and the fact is that this team never trusted each other, and that's how a team becomes more than the some of its parts. And if there's one guy on a basketball team who has to trust his troops, and show trust in his troops, it's the point guard. Trust is how you make the other players better, and that's not Chris, it's just not.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#545 » by wco81 » Thu Apr 9, 2020 10:07 pm

Thing is I recall before the summer that there were reports that they were going to max up CP3 and Blake.

The team was planning to run it back, until CP3 came up with the trade, which turned out to be a huge boon for the team.

Some of the reasons that team didn't get over the hump were injuries and probably the fluke Houston series.

Remember Rivers said the Warriors were lucky they didn't have to play the Clippers in the playoffs in 2015. I'm sure he really believed they should have done much better that year, after taking down the Spurs in the first round.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#546 » by og15 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:09 am

wco81 wrote:Thing is I recall before the summer that there were reports that they were going to max up CP3 and Blake.

The team was planning to run it back, until CP3 came up with the trade, which turned out to be a huge boon for the team.

Some of the reasons that team didn't get over the hump were injuries and probably the fluke Houston series.

Remember Rivers said the Warriors were lucky they didn't have to play the Clippers in the playoffs in 2015. I'm sure he really believed they should have done much better that year, after taking down the Spurs in the first round.

Players and coaches are always confident in themselves as they should be, you don't win if you aren't confident. The good teams that lose go in feeling they could win, and even after they lose they'll still feel they could have won if they had just done this or that. This doesn't actually mean that they are right of course, but it is a good mentality to have either way.

Clippers were a team that could beat anyone on any night, and they did that through the season, but being able to beat anyone on any night doesn't mean you can beat them 4 times out of 7. Also in the playoffs, matchups and depth matter. The Clippers bad depth was what ended up doing them in in the Houston series, it wasn't simply a fluke loss, just like the Thunder and Warriors didn't have simply fluke losses when up 3-1. The Clippers supporting players just ran out of gas over the last 3 games of the series and they couldn't convert on open and wide open shots, this is because they just finished a tough series, and some of those guys were being overplayed because there was no other option.

Just one example, Redick played 39.1 mpg vs SA, they put Kawhi on him because Pop figured, you're not going to "stop" Paul anyways, and a great way to unravel the Clippers offense is to take away a super efficient 16 ppg they get from Redick and reduce that volume or efficiency, and even for the stars, that would be hard to make up for. First 3 games of the series, Redick averaged 11 ppg on 31/37 shooting taking 6 three's a game. Last 4 games he averaged 16 ppg on 53/47 shooting tkaing 4 three's a game. What did he do? Kawhi was closing out hard on him, that was the strategy, smother him, make him inefficient. Redick switched his game and used that hard closeout and heavy pressure against Kawhi and started driving and getting to the rim or into mid-range pull up, it totally opened up his game. Redick plays a high effort offensive game, he's ideally used in the 28-30 mpg range, but he played 39 mpg that series. In the Rockets series he played 38 mpg and the last 3 games of the Rockets series, he shot 30/23.

So the depth and fatigue is already a problem, it was in round 2, imagine they made it to the conference finals, does it now go away? So that's a problem, and then add that GS was just not a good matchup. Curry could rest on defense vs Barnes while Paul had to guard him on defense because Redick and Barnes can't, and then Paul had to work harder on offense because Klay Thompson would guard him. Then Redick had issues defensively with Klay's size, and he couldn't be switched to PG on Curry obviously, or SF because Barnes would also beat up on him. Then you have Blake who at that time just could not figure out Draymond. During the season he had 14/1/1 on 7/15 FG and 18/15/6 on 5/16 FG in the two games against Draymond (16 ppg, 38.7% FG). In the game Draymond missed and he got to go against David Lee, he had 40/12/5 on 16/25 FG. Now over a playoff series, if you could extend it, he might have been able to figure out how to best attack him, but at that time specifically, it was a bad matchup for Blake, and in the playoffs, if that gets you some early losses, the hole can be dug already.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#547 » by og15 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:29 am

esqtvd wrote:
Spoiler:
og15 wrote:
esqtvd wrote:

Good call. That's how I remember Lob City--CP had his half of the court at the right elbow, Blake on the left in the block. Each would operate with separate teammates as the occasion arose but it never seemed to be a 5-man team out there.

I remember CP and Blake being a team the first year or so, but gradually drifting into separate orbits both on and off the court [except for their short-lived internet TV show]. Looking back, their teammates say there was no open hostility but the atmosphere was always kinda weird.

I think CP and BG, looking back, realize that they blew it and they should have found a way to make each other--and thus the team as a whole--better. The whole was always no more than the sum of its parts and sometimes less. There was no magic, no synergy, no 1+1=3.

Even on that last play, CP threw the ball in to Blake, got it back, and then hero-balled the win on what I consider a pretty lucky shot [see above]. Why I just can't get that sentimental about that team and I think they know they blew it too, because of their [relative] youth and egos. I think they wish they could do it all over again, but that ship has sailed.

As nice as this all sounds, them having more synergy would not have made up for the lacking the roster had vs their opponents.

Those teams with supposed lack of synergy had the best offense in the league in 13-14 and 14-15 while starting a SF that teams played off of on defense and in 14-15 having a bad bench. That 14-15 team had the league's best half court offense, this was the season GS won 67 games. The problems that persists are that they were very small at SG,, which since they were small at PG and lacked length at PF, that's a problem. Then they didn't have any quality backup SF's (Dudley was trash as a Clipper, no backup SF in 14-15), in general they did not have enough defensive talent and the quality bench depth was never there. If you want to add, even with Blake expanding his range to long mid-range, having one primary scoring big that needed space (Blake), but who had to be a spacer and another big that could only play at the rim limited their spacing.

Jamal Crawford did what he could with his skills, but he's the type of player that if you have to rely on to perform in the post-season, you're likely limiting yourself in terms of being a championship team. The team had two seasons where they had any chance, 13-14 and 14-15. In 14-15, Austin Rivers, fresh off New Orleans where he was looking like a bust was a key bench player. Did he shoot well in the playoffs overall? Yes, but he was still a bad defender, not because of effort or athleticism, but because of positioning, fouling, IQ. The Clippers when they were actually contending got the worst version of Austin Rivers that they had as he got better over the years. In 14-15 he was just a borderline NBA player and he was their 7th man and playing about 16-17 mpg in the playoffs for the games he came off the bench (started two due to Paul injury).

12-13, 15-16, 16-17 there was no chance of contending due to injuries, and of course if we're being real, in 12-13, DJ was still getting benched for Odom who was on drugs at the time, and Blake was not at his best, so that team was not going to beat SA, even if they stayed healthy, beat Memphis, then beat the injured OKC and got to the WCF.

I think sometimes that period is romanticized in the sense of "oh if they just fit better together, they would have done this or that". No, what should be said is, "if they had better talent and depth and then on the other hand, better health", then maybe, but simply having more synergy was not going to solve their issues. Paul and Griffin's synergy was quite good for their skills and their roster. Good synergy doesn't mean you must be the Warriors with players that are almost perfect fits or the 13-14 Spurs with shooters and passers all over the roster. Teams rarely have that. The Heat's synergy with Lebron/Wade/Bosh was never great, Clippers was better, but Heat had superior talent. The Thunder synergy with Durant/Westbrook/Harden and then just Durant/Westbrook was much worse, but they had size, defense and top level talent. Lebron/Irving/Love synergy, it wasn't bad, but nothing exceptional. Kyrie was basically just an catch and shoot or iso outlet for Lebron, they didn't play off each other in any special way, but they had Lebron a top 2-3 GOAT to most people and a lot of talent. George and Kawhi don't have any special synergy so far, in fact they might never have as good synergy as even those Clippers teams were able to get, but these current Clippers teams out-talent those teams (on both ends when I speak of talent) from top to bottom.

I've linked this before, but here's a long compilation of that 14-15 offense:


The thing was beautiful. They had great early offense options that could transition into multiple options. A quick seal transition option that can become a wing pick and roll, DHO with Redick or post up depending on the reads is just one example. If the early pass to Blake wasn't there you had DJ trailing and they could go into early pick and roll with CP/DJ. After an opponent score they could run another quick pick and roll option with CP/DJ when Blake is the trailer because the defense converging can give him an open shot (DJ as trailer there wouldn't make sense because he can't hit the shot). The way Paul and Blake were set up on opposite sides was for maximizing spacing whenever possible. When you run pick and roll with Blake, even if you pull DJ away from the basket, his man is going to stay close to the basket, so the lane is clogged, which is why sometimes they ran elbow pick and roll instead of high, so that Blake is already closer to the basket giving the defense less time to rotate. When you run pick and roll with DJ, his man now has to come out and guard, this opens up the floor more, and then if Blake's man on the opposite block helps, that opens up Blake who now has options, shoot, drive, find DJ rolling for a lob, find the corner shooter if their man converged to help on the rolling DJ.

We have to understand that when opponents are content playing off Matt Barnes, when they are content playing a little off Blake Griffin and having him shoot because DJ is clogging the lane. When the starting lineup has no other perimeter player who is a ball handler, and when the bench is limited in talent, then defenses can have moments where they muck things up and you have to go to individual talent. Most late game shots are not anything special when it comes to synergy, you're either having isolation or something mucky, so there's no surprise in the Clippers not doing some beautiful play to beat SA, but all series they were abusing SA with the high horns double pick and roll.

Sure you could have had better synergy with Paul and Griffin, and that better synergy would be on of these two things. 1) Blake has longer arms and can play center and protect the rim, so you have this:
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Andre Iguodala
Nikola Mirotic
Blake Griffin


Or, we stay in real life and Blake is who he is, and you have this:
Chris Paul
Klay Thompson
Robert Covington
Blake Griffin
Serge Ibaka

Suddenly the synergy gets better because the floor is spaced, the team is bigger, etc. I think it is unfair to say there was a synergy problem. They can only work with what they had skill wise and roster wise, and in terms of their skills and their roster, they did a very good job in meshing their games together, especially in that 14-15 season.



All true, and good analysis, but nobody's saying they should have or could have won the whole thing, only that they could have been a better and more cohesive team and they are all admitting it now. And they did get worse in that respect as the years went on.

As for the stats, which were fine, the problem was always depth, yes--in no small part because the Big Three were pulling down almost 2/3 of the dough. But the problem was also that they were a 47-minute team. DJ's FT shooting made him a fatal liability in the crunch, and JJ's inability to D-up or score on anything but 3s [even at 45%] made him a bad bet when you only need 1 or 2 points. As for the 5th man, it's no wonder Doc in desperation would sometimes turn to Jamal, anything to get another option out there.

And as for CP, he was the best player but he wasn't a leader. There was never a feeling of OK guys, here's what we're gonna do. We got this.

When you're an MJ or a Kobe, you can be a prick because everybody knows you can put the team on your back and get the W. But CP was just a prick, and nobody's gonna follow a prick into hell. "Synergy" is more than Xs and Os. I think you can wave away that rah-rah stuff in other sports, but basketball isn't one of them. Doc always talks about "trust," and the fact is that this team never trusted each other, and that's how a team becomes more than the some of its parts. And if there's one guy on a basketball team who has to trust his troops, and show trust in his troops, it's the point guard. Trust is how you make the other players better, and that's not Chris, it's just not.

To be honest, I'm not sure what Paul and the others are really admitting is that they could have been a more cohesive team. It seems more like they just say that they shouldn't have lost game 5 against OKC which would have likely put them in a game 7 as I don't think OKC loses game 6, and while OKC is favored in that situation, who knows what could happen. Then also who knows what could happen vs SA, they weren't unbeatable even though they were rolling after the first round. Then secondly that they shouldn't have lost while up 3-1 against Houston, especially up 20+ in game 5, and that would have given them a rematch against GS, and I agree, they shouldn't have lost, but there were reasons they lost. Players just never want to admit they weren't good enough, and I say this as being one who has replayed games in my mind and said "if we just did this, if I just did that" :lol:

But they all also acknowledge that injuries was part of their problem, but have not seen/heard any of them saying or suggesting that their issue was that they weren't cohesive enough, it always seems to be that they just didn't get over the hump, or injuries, or didn't have this or that on the roster. At least as far as I've seen, if anyone has audio or video that suggests otherwise, that would be interesting.

In terms of the depth problem, yea, that's always the difficulty when paying multiple max contracts, it's the hard part of building a contender, those final pieces can actually be more difficult than getting a team that's on the cusp. The Clippers didn't have the front office depth or talent with Sterling as the owner and a new to the game Ballmer to be able to maximize everything they had, it was possibly a missed opportunity, but that's why ownership does matter in the NBA. Also if we remember, the cap spike didn't work in the Clipper favor because of the timing of their players contract renewals, so that could have been an opportunity to add big talent if it just worked out the right way, but it didn't.

In terms of Paul and trust, there's truth there. He's always trusted other guards / sure ball handlers. For example you can argue that Paul trusted Jamal Crawford too much, if there was a person he would give the ball to and be content to watch him go to work at any point in the game, it was Jamal. Later on, he actually was content with Austin with the ball. I don't know if I agree as a blanket statement, there's always a thin line between trusting teammates enough and "too much" if that's a thing. If players make the right basketball plays, I have no problem, but most of the time we judge players decision making on the outcome (shot made or not, etc) vs the actual decision. Chris Paul made the right basketball players the majority of the time no matter what point in the game, so I'm not too nit-picky there. I agree he didn't trust Blake enough early, but Blake was not a sure handed guy with the ball early, and even in the 14-15 season when he had a lot more trust in him, being a good decision maker with the ball down the stretch was still an issue for Blake, especially when he had gotten a bit fatigued.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#548 » by Akklaim1 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:53 pm

Lob City was winning 50+ games every year. That just tells you how great they were and how much greater they could've been if they had chemistry.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#549 » by esqtvd » Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:54 am

Akklaim1 wrote:Lob City was winning 50+ games every year. That just tells you how great they were and how much greater they could've been if they had chemistry.



Their regular-season stats were always good, sometimes superlative. But in the crunch, I never felt about Chris's team the way I feel about Kawhi's team now--I never felt Lob City could get the hoop if they needed one and I certainly never felt they could get the stop.

That's what I mean here about chemistry and synergy, the whole being bigger than the sum of its parts. I don't think the Clippers underperformed as much as they never exceeded expectations, and that's what it takes. Nobody waltzes to the title on talent alone, nobody. You have to overcome.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/kawhi-leonards-inspiring-resilience-essential-raptors-finals-chase/
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#550 » by esqtvd » Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:03 am

Hard to prove that the rah-rah stuff and "chemistry" amounts to anything in the end. I think it does. Regardless, this was NOT the vibe in Lob City.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2020-04-08/doc-rivers-said-clippers-goals-havent-changed-despite-covid-19


    Out of concern for the effects of long-term isolation, Rivers and Lawrence Frank, the team’s president of basketball operations, check in with players several times per week. The players-only group chat has helped.

    “PG and Kawhi have made a conscious effort and so has Lou [Williams],” Rivers said. “Pat [Beverley] has been fantastic. He’s been great — just reaching out to guys, reminding them why we’re here, reminding them that we’re together.
    But it is different. Our guys are used to being together. This is abnormal for everybody, especially for those guys.”

    Amid the disruption, Rivers believes the team’s motivation hasn’t wavered.


I say that was Chris's job, as the PG, HOFer and de facto captain. But it just wasn't that kind of party.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#551 » by og15 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:56 pm

esqtvd wrote:Hard to prove that the rah-rah stuff and "chemistry" amounts to anything in the end. I think it does. Regardless, this was NOT the vibe in Lob City.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2020-04-08/doc-rivers-said-clippers-goals-havent-changed-despite-covid-19


    Out of concern for the effects of long-term isolation, Rivers and Lawrence Frank, the team’s president of basketball operations, check in with players several times per week. The players-only group chat has helped.

    “PG and Kawhi have made a conscious effort and so has Lou [Williams],” Rivers said. “Pat [Beverley] has been fantastic. He’s been great — just reaching out to guys, reminding them why we’re here, reminding them that we’re together.
    But it is different. Our guys are used to being together. This is abnormal for everybody, especially for those guys.”

    Amid the disruption, Rivers believes the team’s motivation hasn’t wavered.


I say that was Chris's job, as the PG, HOFer and de facto captain. But it just wasn't that kind of party.
Part of the old teams problem was the ages of the players. Look at all those players you mentioned, how old is the youngest of them? The main guys here are all vets in the late 20's or in their 30's.

Many guys on the team have talked about how Blake and DJ were still young and enjoying the LA life in the beginning. They talked about how Paul wanted to get the team to go to dinners together and do things together in order to be close, but from the outset, the younger guys wouldn't want to come because they wanted to do more fun things, which we can obviously understand what they are referring to, clubbing, chasing girls, etc.

Chemistry can be a fragile thing, but it's actually premature to compare the chemistry of this current team that hasn't even played a full season together and hasn't lost a playoff series or had any disappointments to a team that was starting their third season together by the time Doc came and by 15-16 had been together 4 seasons with two dissapointing playoff losses. Their chemistry was much better, actually very good those first 3-4 seasons, but the honeymoon period ends, especially if you don't have enough success.

This current team hasn't had any real trials to test their chemistry and are still in the honeymoon period. They are a better and more mature team at the onset though, so they are advantaged in multiple ways.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#552 » by esqtvd » Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:27 am

og15 wrote:
esqtvd wrote:Hard to prove that the rah-rah stuff and "chemistry" amounts to anything in the end. I think it does. Regardless, this was NOT the vibe in Lob City.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2020-04-08/doc-rivers-said-clippers-goals-havent-changed-despite-covid-19


    Out of concern for the effects of long-term isolation, Rivers and Lawrence Frank, the team’s president of basketball operations, check in with players several times per week. The players-only group chat has helped.

    “PG and Kawhi have made a conscious effort and so has Lou [Williams],” Rivers said. “Pat [Beverley] has been fantastic. He’s been great — just reaching out to guys, reminding them why we’re here, reminding them that we’re together.
    But it is different. Our guys are used to being together. This is abnormal for everybody, especially for those guys.”

    Amid the disruption, Rivers believes the team’s motivation hasn’t wavered.


I say that was Chris's job, as the PG, HOFer and de facto captain. But it just wasn't that kind of party.
Part of the old teams problem was the ages of the players. Look at all those players you mentioned, how old is the youngest of them? The main guys here are all vets in the late 20's or in their 30's.

Many guys on the team have talked about how Blake and DJ were still young and enjoying the LA life in the beginning. They talked about how Paul wanted to get the team to go to dinners together and do things together in order to be close, but from the outset, the younger guys wouldn't want to come because they wanted to do more fun things, which we can obviously understand what they are referring to, clubbing, chasing girls, etc.

Chemistry can be a fragile thing, but it's actually premature to compare the chemistry of this current team that hasn't even played a full season together and hasn't lost a playoff series or had any disappointments to a team that was starting their third season together by the time Doc came and by 15-16 had been together 4 seasons with two dissapointing playoff losses. Their chemistry was much better, actually very good those first 3-4 seasons, but the honeymoon period ends, especially if you don't have enough success.

This current team hasn't had any real trials to test their chemistry and are still in the honeymoon period. They are a better and more mature team at the onset though, so they are advantaged in multiple ways.



I certainly blame Blake and DJ's immaturity as well. But although I commend Chris's seriousness, it didn't wash very well with his buddy down in Houston either, even though they flashed gaudy efficiency stats just as Lob City did. Again with the trust thing--if you screw up, Chris isn't gonna buck you up, he's gonna give you a glare. I just don't think he brings out the best in people, and when you can't dominate a game like Kawhi or Kobe, you gotta.

And with that said, PG and BG was always a shotgun wedding. When two top-15 players happen to drop in your lap--especially when you have the worst org in sports--you count your blessings and try to make a go of it. But it was oil and water, never a Stockton-Malone two-headed monster.

It seemed like Chris and Blake were on the same team together separately, of course trying to win but also strangely in competition with each other.

Of course this part is purely subjective. And I could be reading too much into this, but it seems so typical--when Chris get the ball back on the most famous shot in Clippers history, he never looks back at Blake. Even after he hits the shot and Blake's crumpled on the floor after trying to crash the glass, Chris takes off in the opposite direction, never looking back.




__________________________

ADD: As for Kawhi's Clippers, all I can say is I feel better about the Clippers in the 4th quarter than I ever have, although I admit to sharing some people's reservations about Paul George still [he's only 9th in the Clippers in Net Rating in the 4th].


https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4&TeamID=1610612746

Top 5: Kawhi, Beverley, [Mann], Trezz, Lou Will, J-Myke
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#553 » by og15 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:02 am

esqtvd wrote:
og15 wrote:
esqtvd wrote:Hard to prove that the rah-rah stuff and "chemistry" amounts to anything in the end. I think it does. Regardless, this was NOT the vibe in Lob City.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2020-04-08/doc-rivers-said-clippers-goals-havent-changed-despite-covid-19


    Out of concern for the effects of long-term isolation, Rivers and Lawrence Frank, the team’s president of basketball operations, check in with players several times per week. The players-only group chat has helped.

    “PG and Kawhi have made a conscious effort and so has Lou [Williams],” Rivers said. “Pat [Beverley] has been fantastic. He’s been great — just reaching out to guys, reminding them why we’re here, reminding them that we’re together.
    But it is different. Our guys are used to being together. This is abnormal for everybody, especially for those guys.”

    Amid the disruption, Rivers believes the team’s motivation hasn’t wavered.


I say that was Chris's job, as the PG, HOFer and de facto captain. But it just wasn't that kind of party.
Part of the old teams problem was the ages of the players. Look at all those players you mentioned, how old is the youngest of them? The main guys here are all vets in the late 20's or in their 30's.

Many guys on the team have talked about how Blake and DJ were still young and enjoying the LA life in the beginning. They talked about how Paul wanted to get the team to go to dinners together and do things together in order to be close, but from the outset, the younger guys wouldn't want to come because they wanted to do more fun things, which we can obviously understand what they are referring to, clubbing, chasing girls, etc.

Chemistry can be a fragile thing, but it's actually premature to compare the chemistry of this current team that hasn't even played a full season together and hasn't lost a playoff series or had any disappointments to a team that was starting their third season together by the time Doc came and by 15-16 had been together 4 seasons with two dissapointing playoff losses. Their chemistry was much better, actually very good those first 3-4 seasons, but the honeymoon period ends, especially if you don't have enough success.

This current team hasn't had any real trials to test their chemistry and are still in the honeymoon period. They are a better and more mature team at the onset though, so they are advantaged in multiple ways.



I certainly blame Blake and DJ's immaturity as well. But although I commend Chris's seriousness, it didn't wash very well with his buddy down in Houston either, even though they flashed gaudy efficiency stats just as Lob City did. Again with the trust thing--if you screw up, Chris isn't gonna buck you up, he's gonna give you a glare. I just don't think he brings out the best in people, and when you can't dominate a game like Kawhi or Kobe, you gotta.

And with that said, PG and BG was always a shotgun wedding. When two top-15 players happen to drop in your lap--especially when you have the worst org in sports--you count your blessings and try to make a go of it. But it was oil and water, never a Stockton-Malone two-headed monster.

It seemed like Chris and Blake were on the same team together separately, of course trying to win but also strangely in competition with each other.

Of course this part is purely subjective. And I could be reading too much into this, but it seems so typical--when Chris get the ball back on the most famous shot in Clippers history, he never looks back at Blake. Even after he hits the shot and Blake's crumpled on the floor after trying to crash the glass, Chris takes off in the opposite direction, never looking back.




__________________________

ADD: As for Kawhi's Clippers, all I can say is I feel better about the Clippers in the 4th quarter than I ever have, although I admit to sharing some people's reservations about Paul George still [he's only 9th in the Clippers in Net Rating in the 4th].


https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4&TeamID=1610612746

Top 5: Kawhi, Beverley, [Mann], Trezz, Lou Will, J-Myke

Oh yea, of course, there are many factors, Paul is not innocent in his part, he's a strong personality, and he's a know it all (and right more often than not which makes it more annoying), but chemistry issues are rarely a one person issue unless it's a really problematic person which none of these guys were. Paul/Harden probably would have worked better if they won in 17-18, but his injuries were a problem again, and this time the trust issue was the other way around, Harden did not trust his other teammates to make the playmaking decisions, and that included not trusting a HOF PG who has been making great decisions for years, even just the previous year enough anymore because, "you can't even beat your man anymore".

That situation would be different if Paul was younger, but objectively, Paul's gripe was correct, the play style Houston reverted to due to injuries and then continued to stick with after the injured players came back was just not the ideal way to play for a championship team. That is the super heavy Harden isolation style, but it is what it is. You can see when the Thunder have played Houston and they are interacting after the game that most of those guys on Houston actually liked Paul, Tucker, Capela, House, Gordon, etc, and even MDA wasn't happy to see him go. It's just Harden who didn't want to adjust his ways, and you can understand his stubbornness as what he was doing was working to get RS wins, but history tends to support that such a high usage from a single player usually doesn't lead to championships.

Still, when there's a perception, it sticks. Look at Paul and Curry, people have this narrative that Paul is a bad person and doesn't like Curry, etc, and this is them just a few days ago :lol:


Also I ended up finding a player who directly said that their issue was chemistry that prevented them from winning more:
JJ Redick wrote:He even admitted how ‘petty’ the issue was and said, “Off the court, everybody sort of got along and then there was just so much pettiness. It was so much pettiness. It’s weird to think (about) what we had the potential to accomplish and what ultimately derailed that was pettiness. Like Donald Trump-level pettiness.”

“I think the biggest problem was passive aggressiveness.” Redick opened up, “I don’t know that we hate each other, I don’t know that, but I think it wasn’t that while we were playing together. It wasn’t like, ‘oh I hate this guy,’ it was just like passive aggressive bull.”

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-la-clippers-there-was-donald-trump-level-pettiness-jj-redick-makes-a-shocking-revelation-on-the-demise-of-lob-city/

There's always been concern about Paul George late in games through his career, at least when it comes to making winning / go ahead shots, but since he has Kawhi on the team, it's all good, it doesn't need to be his job :lol:.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#554 » by wco81 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:03 am

Warriors made a big deal about how they always had meals together, even at home.

At least for a couple of seasons.

Then I think the stars got paid and Curry started a family. They definitely didn't keep the same cohesion after KD arrived.

Someone like Speights was into that scene when he was with the Warriors. In fact he lost weight and got in the best shape of his career his last year with the team.

OK that CP3 interviewing Steph was amusing. I think it's a business thing though, someone getting paid to talk up Quibi.

But I wouldn't have expected it after the last two Rockets-Warriors series.

CP3 seemed fed with losing to the Warriors.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#555 » by Quake Griffin » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:41 pm

og15 wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
og15 wrote:Part of the old teams problem was the ages of the players. Look at all those players you mentioned, how old is the youngest of them? The main guys here are all vets in the late 20's or in their 30's.

Many guys on the team have talked about how Blake and DJ were still young and enjoying the LA life in the beginning. They talked about how Paul wanted to get the team to go to dinners together and do things together in order to be close, but from the outset, the younger guys wouldn't want to come because they wanted to do more fun things, which we can obviously understand what they are referring to, clubbing, chasing girls, etc.

Chemistry can be a fragile thing, but it's actually premature to compare the chemistry of this current team that hasn't even played a full season together and hasn't lost a playoff series or had any disappointments to a team that was starting their third season together by the time Doc came and by 15-16 had been together 4 seasons with two dissapointing playoff losses. Their chemistry was much better, actually very good those first 3-4 seasons, but the honeymoon period ends, especially if you don't have enough success.

This current team hasn't had any real trials to test their chemistry and are still in the honeymoon period. They are a better and more mature team at the onset though, so they are advantaged in multiple ways.



I certainly blame Blake and DJ's immaturity as well. But although I commend Chris's seriousness, it didn't wash very well with his buddy down in Houston either, even though they flashed gaudy efficiency stats just as Lob City did. Again with the trust thing--if you screw up, Chris isn't gonna buck you up, he's gonna give you a glare. I just don't think he brings out the best in people, and when you can't dominate a game like Kawhi or Kobe, you gotta.

And with that said, PG and BG was always a shotgun wedding. When two top-15 players happen to drop in your lap--especially when you have the worst org in sports--you count your blessings and try to make a go of it. But it was oil and water, never a Stockton-Malone two-headed monster.

It seemed like Chris and Blake were on the same team together separately, of course trying to win but also strangely in competition with each other.

Of course this part is purely subjective. And I could be reading too much into this, but it seems so typical--when Chris get the ball back on the most famous shot in Clippers history, he never looks back at Blake. Even after he hits the shot and Blake's crumpled on the floor after trying to crash the glass, Chris takes off in the opposite direction, never looking back.




__________________________

ADD: As for Kawhi's Clippers, all I can say is I feel better about the Clippers in the 4th quarter than I ever have, although I admit to sharing some people's reservations about Paul George still [he's only 9th in the Clippers in Net Rating in the 4th].


https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4&TeamID=1610612746

Top 5: Kawhi, Beverley, [Mann], Trezz, Lou Will, J-Myke

Oh yea, of course, there are many factors, Paul is not innocent in his part, he's a strong personality, and he's a know it all (and right more often than not which makes it more annoying), but chemistry issues are rarely a one person issue unless it's a really problematic person which none of these guys were. Paul/Harden probably would have worked better if they won in 17-18, but his injuries were a problem again, and this time the trust issue was the other way around, Harden did not trust his other teammates to make the playmaking decisions, and that included not trusting a HOF PG who has been making great decisions for years, even just the previous year enough anymore because, "you can't even beat your man anymore".

That situation would be different if Paul was younger, but objectively, Paul's gripe was correct, the play style Houston reverted to due to injuries and then continued to stick with after the injured players came back was just not the ideal way to play for a championship team. That is the super heavy Harden isolation style, but it is what it is. You can see when the Thunder have played Houston and they are interacting after the game that most of those guys on Houston actually liked Paul, Tucker, Capela, House, Gordon, etc, and even MDA wasn't happy to see him go. It's just Harden who didn't want to adjust his ways, and you can understand his stubbornness as what he was doing was working to get RS wins, but history tends to support that such a high usage from a single player usually doesn't lead to championships.

Still, when there's a perception, it sticks. Look at Paul and Curry, people have this narrative that Paul is a bad person and doesn't like Curry, etc, and this is them just a few days ago :lol:


Also I ended up finding a player who directly said that their issue was chemistry that prevented them from winning more:
JJ Redick wrote:He even admitted how ‘petty’ the issue was and said, “Off the court, everybody sort of got along and then there was just so much pettiness. It was so much pettiness. It’s weird to think (about) what we had the potential to accomplish and what ultimately derailed that was pettiness. Like Donald Trump-level pettiness.”

“I think the biggest problem was passive aggressiveness.” Redick opened up, “I don’t know that we hate each other, I don’t know that, but I think it wasn’t that while we were playing together. It wasn’t like, ‘oh I hate this guy,’ it was just like passive aggressive bull.”

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-la-clippers-there-was-donald-trump-level-pettiness-jj-redick-makes-a-shocking-revelation-on-the-demise-of-lob-city/

There's always been concern about Paul George late in games through his career, at least when it comes to making winning / go ahead shots, but since he has Kawhi on the team, it's all good, it doesn't need to be his job :lol:.

He played with two very flawed stars/ fringe superstars. It's practically burying your head in the sand to act like his grievances with those two are purely a defect in his personality. He saw what we all saw.

Further, he definitely got the best out of that 08 and 11 Hornets team. He def got the best out of the 2012 Clippers. We weren't supposed to beat the Grizzlies. DJ was terrible and in Vinny's dog house. Blake was not quite the 2014 Blake we grew to love.

Last part of all this is....nobody wants to say it but the Warriors becoming the Warriors have EVERYTHING to do with this and, again, it's practically burying our head in the sand to pretend they didn't:

He's in his 30s. His best friend is having the best career ever. The Warriors win 67 games and 3-1 us in 2015. Doc can say theyre lucky to not see us but, let's just say, Vegas would have favored the Warriors easily. The next season, they win 73 games and sweep you handily. You have to imagine this guy is looking at his age, his team, his team's cap situation, and coming to work every day thinking he has no shot to win this year or the next year, etc. etc. Add to the mix that it was a thing that he never made a conference final. Steph is eclipsing you in terms of legacy (and I'm sure he still thinks he's better than Steph). I'm sure he was annoyed coming to work sometimes and the little things that flew in 2012 weren't so funny in 2016. I'm sure he felt more of a sense of urgency than Blake or DJ did at that point.


I also believe he was certainly capable of taking over a game like Kobe or Kawhi in his prime....certainly less so in 2017.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#556 » by og15 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:35 pm

wco81 wrote:Warriors made a big deal about how they always had meals together, even at home.

At least for a couple of seasons.

Then I think the stars got paid and Curry started a family. They definitely didn't keep the same cohesion after KD arrived.

Someone like Speights was into that scene when he was with the Warriors. In fact he lost weight and got in the best shape of his career his last year with the team.

OK that CP3 interviewing Steph was amusing. I think it's a business thing though, someone getting paid to talk up Quibi.

But I wouldn't have expected it after the last two Rockets-Warriors series.

CP3 seemed fed with losing to the Warriors.

The general sentiment about Paul is that when you are competing against him, he's a different human and when that's over he's a different person, so not too surprised.

Don't think he would have Rondo on for something like that for example, and you can see that it's a pretty casual and friendly conversation, even laughing at each other, certainly not fitting into the perception.

Of course we also know that most NBA players reported beef is usually not nearly as intense as what is reported, but things have to be sensationalized because it's more exciting. There are few where there's actually serious beef, but obviously you're not going to get as much interaction if you promote it as being small.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#557 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:16 pm

og15 wrote:
wco81 wrote:Warriors made a big deal about how they always had meals together, even at home.

At least for a couple of seasons.

Then I think the stars got paid and Curry started a family. They definitely didn't keep the same cohesion after KD arrived.

Someone like Speights was into that scene when he was with the Warriors. In fact he lost weight and got in the best shape of his career his last year with the team.

OK that CP3 interviewing Steph was amusing. I think it's a business thing though, someone getting paid to talk up Quibi.

But I wouldn't have expected it after the last two Rockets-Warriors series.

CP3 seemed fed with losing to the Warriors.

The general sentiment about Paul is that when you are competing against him, he's a different human and when that's over he's a different person, so not too surprised.

Don't think he would have Rondo on for something like that for example, and you can see that it's a pretty casual and friendly conversation, even laughing at each other, certainly not fitting into the perception.

Of course we also know that most NBA players reported beef is usually not nearly as intense as what is reported, but things have to be sensationalized because it's more exciting. There are few where there's actually serious beef, but obviously you're not going to get as much interaction if you promote it as being small.



I think the general sentiment is that NBA players would rather have Chris Paul in front of them than behind them, lol. Respect him as an opponent, not crazy about him as a teammate.


I think CP is probably in the best place possible for him right now as a person and as a player, as the elder statesman on a very young but promising team. As Pat Bev was saying yesterday on the 2K tournament, as a captain you have to know your young players--what's his favorite food and if he's struggling, take him out for a meal. I think CP's being that sort of leader and mentor with the Okies now, but he needed to be that person to lead Lob City and he just wasn't.

Nobody talks about CP having been one of the great influences on their career. The silence is conspicuous.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#558 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:36 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:
esqtvd wrote:

I certainly blame Blake and DJ's immaturity as well. But although I commend Chris's seriousness, it didn't wash very well with his buddy down in Houston either, even though they flashed gaudy efficiency stats just as Lob City did. Again with the trust thing--if you screw up, Chris isn't gonna buck you up, he's gonna give you a glare. I just don't think he brings out the best in people, and when you can't dominate a game like Kawhi or Kobe, you gotta.

And with that said, PG and BG was always a shotgun wedding. When two top-15 players happen to drop in your lap--especially when you have the worst org in sports--you count your blessings and try to make a go of it. But it was oil and water, never a Stockton-Malone two-headed monster.

It seemed like Chris and Blake were on the same team together separately, of course trying to win but also strangely in competition with each other.

Of course this part is purely subjective. And I could be reading too much into this, but it seems so typical--when Chris get the ball back on the most famous shot in Clippers history, he never looks back at Blake. Even after he hits the shot and Blake's crumpled on the floor after trying to crash the glass, Chris takes off in the opposite direction, never looking back.







He played with two very flawed stars/ fringe superstars. It's practically burying your head in the sand to act like his grievances with those two are purely a defect in his personality. He saw what we all saw.

Further, he definitely got the best out of that 08 and 11 Hornets team. He def got the best out of the 2012 Clippers. We weren't supposed to beat the Grizzlies. DJ was terrible and in Vinny's dog house. Blake was not quite the 2014 Blake we grew to love.

Last part of all this is....nobody wants to say it but the Warriors becoming the Warriors have EVERYTHING to do with this and, again, it's practically burying our head in the sand to pretend they didn't:

He's in his 30s. His best friend is having the best career ever. The Warriors win 67 games and 3-1 us in 2015. Doc can say theyre lucky to not see us but, let's just say, Vegas would have favored the Warriors easily. The next season, they win 73 games and sweep you handily. You have to imagine this guy is looking at his age, his team, his team's cap situation, and coming to work every day thinking he has no shot to win this year or the next year, etc. etc. Add to the mix that it was a thing that he never made a conference final. Steph is eclipsing you in terms of legacy (and I'm sure he still thinks he's better than Steph). I'm sure he was annoyed coming to work sometimes and the little things that flew in 2012 weren't so funny in 2016. I'm sure he felt more of a sense of urgency than Blake or DJ did at that point.


I also believe he was certainly capable of taking over a game like Kobe or Kawhi in his prime....certainly less so in 2017.



CP had his 40-point games, but I'm talking about taking over a game night after night--2 minutes left, down by 2 or 6. Kobe time. At 6-foot-nothing, that's just not Chris. It's pretty much not anyone that small except Iverson, and he was certainly a mixed bag too.

This is not a knock on Chris. You is what you is. And his frustration with the negative aspects of the situation--the roster makeup, the callowness of Blake and DJ--all understandable, probably what any of us would have felt.

And the rest is not a knock on Chris either--his pairing with Blake was a decree from the NBA gods, but if you were designing a team, you wouldn't put them together purposely--or keep them together if you had other options. They never became a well-oiled, unstoppable PG/PF machine like Stockton and Malone. Just didn't. They were on the same team, but were not a unit.


But the real point here is that if Chris wanted more than he got in his time as a Clipper, it was up to HIM to make it happen. And he surely realizes now that he didn't. It was in his power and nobody else's: He was the best player, he was the captain, he was the point guard, he had the ball. You play the hand you're dealt. He didn't play it as well as he could have, and needed to.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#559 » by Quake Griffin » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:33 pm

I disagree with that, he was closing games plenty in NOLA and early in his Clipper tenure. One on one against good defensive guards. He was that good offensively imo.


;t=338s



;t=278s

^^^
At this point in his career, I was very comfortable with him having the ball in his hands late and taking over. In fact, during that period of time, I think I might have only wanted LeBron as my take over guy....


CP's limitations IMO are chasing Steph all game and then trying to drop 40. His limitations were chasing Russ or Tony Parker all game and then trying to score/ close/ Kobe/ Kawhi a game. All these guys had some 6'7" stretch armstrong armed wing that could spell them on a PG. Chris was our PG and our best wing defender. Unbelievable he had to guard Kevin Durant in a Game 4 against the Thunder. He was never going to take our toughest defensive assignment and then Kobe us to a championship. But, if we're being honest, who else is doing that nowadays without a significant spell on their defensive assignment?

Don't kid yourself for a second thinking Kawhi is just going to check LeBron for 40 minutes, drop 35 per game and win us a series. This isn't 2014 anymore. He is the guy and he's gonna need to be spelled from that assignment for periods at a time in a 7 game series.
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Re: Chris Paul to the Rockets 

Post#560 » by esqtvd » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:44 am

can't argue with memories and highlight reels :-)
he's a HOFer but I don't remember him being thought of as a closer
which doesn't make him a bad person

as for Kawhi, he beat Giannis
whatever he did then will have to do now
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