Game 24: Clippers (8-15) host Wizards (14-11) on 12/09 @ 3:30 PM ET

[JGOJustin]

You'd think Austin was a superstar from the amount of coddling and excuses he gets on here. Meanwhile, actually good players like Blake get dumped on by this fanbase. It's absurd.

Bottom line: Austin's FG% right now is still his worst as a Clipper, and his TS% eFG% are both still his second-worst as a Clipper. He's a replacement-level player at best, as shown by his 0.0 VORP and -1.8 BPM. Keep in mind that these stats are with his dad as the coach giving him the unlimited green light to chuck and more minutes per game than ever before. Savvy fans are critical of Austin's play not because we're just haters, but because he isn't very good and the stats and eye test support it.

So damn hurt lol Fam his TS% and eFG% of course will be down because he's being forced to play a ton of minutes on a depleted squad void of it's best players right now.

"Savvy" fans get the hell of here

Fam he's averaging 19.4 ppg 3rebs and 5ast on 46/42/77 with a 55 eFG% and a 58 TS% over his last 7 games. It's even better than this since Blake's been out. You weren't going to mention any of this though.

Eye test my ass your eyes need to be checked he's obviously been hooping lately and is getting better as the season goes along.

Some of this is for sure due to an increase in minutes due to injury (not nepotism as you insinuated) but the fact that he's being efficient while scoring at a rather high clip should tell you something.

The whole point of my defending of Austin isn't to prove that he's a very good player, but that he's obviously solid and has high variance in performance, as most bench players do. However, you along with a plethora of others only see the bad, without acknowledging the good.

[JGOJustin]

And that's my issue with those who don't like Austin.

He isn't that great of a player truth be told, but there are worse starting 2 guards in the league who never ever get the amount of hate that he does, and most importantly, the same people who are loud when he's terrible never give credit when he's playing well, which he clearly is right now.

That's wrong man, just shut up and give the man his props his scoring, asts, and more importantly, his efficiency, are going up while Blake Griffin is hurt, which shouldn't happen if Austin is trash.

[esqtvd]

You'd think Austin was a superstar from the amount of coddling and excuses he gets on here. Meanwhile, actually good players like Blake get dumped on by this fanbase. It's absurd.

Bottom line: Austin's FG% right now is still his worst as a Clipper, and his TS% eFG% are both still his second-worst as a Clipper. He's a replacement-level player at best, as shown by his 0.0 VORP and -1.8 BPM. Keep in mind that these stats are with his dad as the coach giving him the unlimited green light to chuck and more minutes per game than ever before. Savvy fans are critical of Austin's play not because we're just haters, but because he isn't very good and the stats and eye test support it.

Unresponsive. I'm pretty skeptical of fans' "eye tests" esp when their sig confesses a certain bias [DDS]. Austin's not great by any means but he's still the least of our problems, and his numbers have been rising bigtime since he's been asked to step up with 3 other starters injured.

Well, Plan A was for him to replace JJ at the 2, so that's my bottom line. Without CP3 to spoonfeed him, JJ's shooting 39.4% on 3s. Without CP [or Ray Felton for that matter] to set him up, Austin's shooting...40.9%.

...

I wanted to register that now Austin's finally getting to play his natural SG position, he's scoring almost 21 ppg and his percentages are great...

[og15]

the suck thing is, there are so-called Clipper fans who are so invested in hating Doc that they cringe every time Austin hits one and glee whenever he misses one

WTF is that


Last 5 games:

20.9 ppg, 47.4% FG, 17-34 on 3-pt [that's 50% to my Ralph-like-computer-like mind]

oh and 7 assists tonight

give the kid a break willya

Austin's offense has been pretty good... not only he shot well, but also he moved the ball better, his off ball moving and backdoor screening were on point too... he still has a tendency to over dribble, but a lot better than before...
his defense has a lot to be desired though...
I think the ball has moved better without Blake

Well, Plan A was for him to replace JJ at the 2, so that's my bottom line. Without CP3 to spoonfeed him, JJ's shooting 39.4% on 3s. Without CP [or Ray Felton for that matter] to set him up, Austin's shooting...40.9%.

And Austin's still a plus on D in that respect because JJ's so hideous--and Austin's been asking for the toughest defensive assignments. Yes, I saw Beal blow by him on that hoop to take the lead the other day. Still, with most of his minutes are coming beside Lou, Austin draws the short straw once again. After the trade, Plan B was for Pat Bev to take the tougher defensive tasks, but that plan's shot now too.

I wanted to register that now Austin's finally getting to play his natural SG position, he's scoring almost 21 ppg and his percentages are great. But with Milos coming back, once again Austin's going to have to play out of position because neither Lou nor Milos can play the 3, and WeJo's slumping [or regressing to his mean], shooting 31% and 10% from distance over his last 5 games. Wes is a mess.

As for Blake being a black hole for ball movement. yeah. And he and Austin are not a great pair. But who do you move the ball to? DJ's a non-factor, Lou's an iso player. Gallo was supposed to be the 2nd option after Blake but so far is shooting 35%/26%. You don't get an assist when they miss the shot. I guess we'll jump off that bridge when we come to it.

Well, I don't know about this part. Redick, first of all, was not hideous on defense by any means. While Redick wouldn't stop anyone and could be taken advantage of by certain matchups, there's a great advantage in being consistent on defense that a lot of people seem to neglect.

The starting lineup with Austin vs with Redick was actually better defensively with Redick than with Austin for example. Also, I'm not sure that Austin has been a plus on defense, what makes you say that?

[esqtvd]

Well if you wanna argue that Redick is/was a better defender than Austin, I yield the floor. Make your case.

The interesting part to me is that Austin is shooting better from distance than JJ is, and JJ has a winning team and Ben Simmons to feed him. Austin has neither.
_______________

ADD: Just for context, Clips led by Milos just tied it at 84.

ADD: Austin takes it to the hole to take the lead at 86.

Seeya after the game...

[TinmanZBoy]

Well if you wanna argue that Redick is/was a better defender than Austin, I yield the floor. Make your case.

The interesting part to me is that Austin is shooting better from distance than JJ is, and JJ has a winning team and Ben Simmons to feed him. Austin has neither.
_______________

ADD: Just for context, Clips led by Milos just tied it at 84.

ADD: Austin takes it to the hole to take the lead at 86.

Seeya after the game...

Austin is shooting better than Curry on 3 balls... he might be the future goat shooter

[esqtvd]

Austin is shooting better than Curry on 3 balls... he might be the future goat shooter

Heh heh. Austin is shooting as well from 3 as JJ anyway. Hey look, I defend Austin from the 'nepotism' attacks, but if he doesn't shoot 37%-to 40+% on threes, he doesn't do anything else well enough to deserve all these minutes.

But he does, so he does.

[og15]

Well if you wanna argue that Redick is/was a better defender than Austin, I yield the floor. Make your case.

The interesting part to me is that Austin is shooting better from distance than JJ is, and JJ has a winning team and Ben Simmons to feed him. Austin has neither.
_______________

ADD: Just for context, Clips led by Milos just tied it at 84.

ADD: Austin takes it to the hole to take the lead at 86.

Seeya after the game...

I'm arguing that Redick was certainly not hideous on defense, and I'm also just informing that the starters with Redick were better on defense than the starters with Austin, so if Redick is hideous, then Austin can't also be very good and have it no show up in similar lineups. Also in previous seasons, the starters have been one of the league's best 5 man units, and have been good defensively as a unit, which again doesn't make sense if Redick was a hideous defender.

JJ is a more disciplined defender. Austin has more tools for defense and is more versatile and is a superior one on one defender, but if you gamble and or commit poor fouls and make poor decisions, those things negate the good you do. JJ is a very mistake-free player, so it means he won't be shutting anyone down or getting 6 steals in a game, but he's also not going to have multiple games where you're asking "what is he doing". If Austin had Redick's discipline and consistency on defense, he would be a very good defender. Similar to his offense though, Austin is volatile on defense, not just from game to game, but possession to possession. That's what my "eye test" tells me. This doesn't mean Redick is better, but overall game by game defensive impact, there isn't a wide margin between them because of Austin's lack of discipline. Austin was also a bit better when he was doing less on offense.

[TinmanZBoy]

Well if you wanna argue that Redick is/was a better defender than Austin, I yield the floor. Make your case.

The interesting part to me is that Austin is shooting better from distance than JJ is, and JJ has a winning team and Ben Simmons to feed him. Austin has neither.
_______________

ADD: Just for context, Clips led by Milos just tied it at 84.

ADD: Austin takes it to the hole to take the lead at 86.

Seeya after the game...

I'm arguing that Redick was certainly not hideous on defense, and I'm also just informing that the starters with Redick were better on defense than the starters with Austin, so if Redick is hideous, then Austin can't also be very good and have it no show up in similar lineups. Also in previous seasons, the starters have been one of the league's best 5 man units, and have been good defensively as a unit, which again doesn't make sense if Redick was a hideous defender.

JJ is a more disciplined defender. Austin has more tools for defense and is more versatile and is a superior one on one defender, but if you gamble and or commit poor fouls and make poor decisions, those things negate the good you do. JJ is a very mistake-free player, so it means he won't be shutting anyone down or getting 6 steals in a game, but he's also not going to have multiple games where you're asking "what is he doing". If Austin had Redick's discipline and consistency on defense, he would be a very good defender. Similar to his offense though, Austin is volatile on defense, not just from game to game, but possession to possession. That's what my "eye test" tells me. This doesn't mean Redick is better, but overall game by game defensive impact, there isn't a wide margin between them because of Austin's lack of discipline. Austin was also a bit better when he was doing less on offense.

I still remember JJ's defense on Harden in playoffs, was pretty impressive...

[esqtvd]

Well if you wanna argue that Redick is/was a better defender than Austin, I yield the floor. Make your case.

The interesting part to me is that Austin is shooting better from distance than JJ is, and JJ has a winning team and Ben Simmons to feed him. Austin has neither.
_______________

ADD: Just for context, Clips led by Milos just tied it at 84.

ADD: Austin takes it to the hole to take the lead at 86.

Seeya after the game...

I'm arguing that Redick was certainly not hideous on defense, and I'm also just informing that the starters with Redick were better on defense than the starters with Austin, so if Redick is hideous, then Austin can't also be very good and have it no show up in similar lineups. Also in previous seasons, the starters have been one of the league's best 5 man units, and have been good defensively as a unit, which again doesn't make sense if Redick was a hideous defender.

JJ is a more disciplined defender. Austin has more tools for defense and is more versatile and is a superior one on one defender, but if you gamble and or commit poor fouls and make poor decisions, those things negate the good you do. JJ is a very mistake-free player, so it means he won't be shutting anyone down or getting 6 steals in a game, but he's also not going to have multiple games where you're asking "what is he doing". If Austin had Redick's discipline and consistency on defense, he would be a very good defender. Similar to his offense though, Austin is volatile on defense, not just from game to game, but possession to possession. That's what my "eye test" tells me. This doesn't mean Redick is better, but overall game by game defensive impact, there isn't a wide margin between them because of Austin's lack of discipline. Austin was also a bit better when he was doing less on offense.

Nothing substantive here to argue with. You're entitled to your opinion. Austin attacks the ballhandler; JJ is hidden on the wing. I can only reply that CP3 wanted Austin to start over Redick and got mad at Doc for refusing.

[og15]

Well if you wanna argue that Redick is/was a better defender than Austin, I yield the floor. Make your case.

The interesting part to me is that Austin is shooting better from distance than JJ is, and JJ has a winning team and Ben Simmons to feed him. Austin has neither.
_______________

ADD: Just for context, Clips led by Milos just tied it at 84.

ADD: Austin takes it to the hole to take the lead at 86.

Seeya after the game...

I'm arguing that Redick was certainly not hideous on defense, and I'm also just informing that the starters with Redick were better on defense than the starters with Austin, so if Redick is hideous, then Austin can't also be very good and have it no show up in similar lineups. Also in previous seasons, the starters have been one of the league's best 5 man units, and have been good defensively as a unit, which again doesn't make sense if Redick was a hideous defender.

JJ is a more disciplined defender. Austin has more tools for defense and is more versatile and is a superior one on one defender, but if you gamble and or commit poor fouls and make poor decisions, those things negate the good you do. JJ is a very mistake-free player, so it means he won't be shutting anyone down or getting 6 steals in a game, but he's also not going to have multiple games where you're asking "what is he doing". If Austin had Redick's discipline and consistency on defense, he would be a very good defender. Similar to his offense though, Austin is volatile on defense, not just from game to game, but possession to possession. That's what my "eye test" tells me. This doesn't mean Redick is better, but overall game by game defensive impact, there isn't a wide margin between them because of Austin's lack of discipline. Austin was also a bit better when he was doing less on offense.

Nothing substantive here to argue with. You're entitled to your opinion. Austin attacks the ballhandler; JJ is hidden on the wing. I can only reply that CP3 wanted Austin to start over Redick and got mad at Doc for refusing.

Allegedly, and that was said to be because of wanting another ball handler IIRC, which says nothing about Redick's defense, nor does it support the idea that Redick was a "horrendous" defender.

Like the previous poster mentioned, Redick was definitely not hidden on Harden, and he did a great job because of discipline, don't reach, don't try and make hero defensive plays, just move your feet and stay in front, contest and let the help and team defense do its job.

Austin again has vastly superior tools and is more versatile, but Redick's defensive IQ is much better and over large sample sizes, it covers for Austin being able to "attack the ball handler". Doesn't mean Redick is better on defense, but also doesn't mean he's horrendous in comparison to Rivers. I have no issue saying Rivers is better, but he's not any sort of special defender himself, he has seemed to digress in some areas, and he is mistake prone.

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[esqtvd]

I'm catching a lot of Sixers games and I see pretty much the same old JJ. As for Harden, could be, but that's not a lot to go on. If he were better than Austin, he'd have been guarding the better players.

“I think J.J.’s a really underrated defender,” said Austin Rivers. “When I’m in the game, I usually guard the best player…But if I’m not in and it’s a smaller guy, J.J. guards him. If he’s bigger, Luc (Mbah a Moute) guards him, but that’s the trust we have in him.”

JJ just doesn't have the lateral speed, the length, or the hops.

As for Austin, the consensus is yes, he's taken a step back on D. However, playing with Lou and Milos doesn't help. I was looking forward to him having Pat Bev to hide behind. Starting Sindarius for his D seemed a good idea but I don't think the pairing works. Sindarius is getting 14 mpg but only averaging 2.6 in his past 10 games and 1.6 in his last 5. That doesn't cut it. He's just not an NBA guard yet.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3064539/sindarius-thornwell

[QRich3]

2014-15 Redick was an incredible defender, don't wanna say elite in the league cause that might be hyperbole, but he was really really good. Most of us Clippers fans will remember how we were supposed to be an impossible match up for the Rockets back then, because of how well Redick nullified Harden. Then that playoff series happened and the next season JJ slipped quite a bit, but he's still a plus defender today.

Austin was a pesky defender that seemed like he was on his way to be a good defender when he first came back here, but as his offense started to improve, his energy on defense declined steeply, and his awareness remains pretty much a zero. I don't think he's ever been a plus defender, all things considered.

Sindarius looks promising on that end, but he makes so many mental errors that I'm not sure what he'll be. Great defenders usually have better positioning than that in their rookie years.

[esqtvd]

2014-15 Redick was an incredible defender, don't wanna say elite in the league cause that might be hyperbole, but he was really really good. Most of us Clippers fans will remember how we were supposed to be an impossible match up for the Rockets back then, because of how well Redick nullified Harden. Then that playoff series happened and the next season JJ slipped quite a bit, but he's still a plus defender today.

Austin was a pesky defender that seemed like he was on his way to be a good defender when he first came back here, but as his offense started to improve, his energy on defense declined steeply, and his awareness remains pretty much a zero. I don't think he's ever been a plus defender, all things considered.

Sindarius looks promising on that end, but he makes so many mental errors that I'm not sure what he'll be. Great defenders usually have better positioning than that in their rookie years.

Last year, JJ--guarding their weakest man--yielded an opps FG% 3.4% higher than their average
https://stats.nba.com/player/200755/defense-dash/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Austin, guarding the best opp, yielded -0.2%
https://stats.nba.com/player/203085/defense-dash/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


suggesting JJ's a minus defender and Austin's at least average

as for JJ's now-legendary covering of Harden in one series 3 years ago, that's nice but not probative

as for Sindarius, he's still learning to play guard on both ends
and until he can shoot the 3-ball, he's not a factor anyway
I was skeptical of his usefulness this year, but let's not give up on him just yet

[QRich3]

2014-15 Redick was an incredible defender, don't wanna say elite in the league cause that might be hyperbole, but he was really really good. Most of us Clippers fans will remember how we were supposed to be an impossible match up for the Rockets back then, because of how well Redick nullified Harden. Then that playoff series happened and the next season JJ slipped quite a bit, but he's still a plus defender today.

Austin was a pesky defender that seemed like he was on his way to be a good defender when he first came back here, but as his offense started to improve, his energy on defense declined steeply, and his awareness remains pretty much a zero. I don't think he's ever been a plus defender, all things considered.

Sindarius looks promising on that end, but he makes so many mental errors that I'm not sure what he'll be. Great defenders usually have better positioning than that in their rookie years.

Last year, JJ--guarding their weakest man--yielded an opps FG% 3.4% higher than their average
https://stats.nba.com/player/200755/defense-dash/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Austin, guarding the best opp, yielded -0.2%
https://stats.nba.com/player/203085/defense-dash/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


suggesting JJ's a minus defender and Austin's at least average

as for JJ's now-legendary covering of Harden in one series 3 years ago, that's nice but not probative

as for Sindarius, he's still learning to play guard on both ends
and until he can shoot the 3-ball, he's not a factor anyway
I was skeptical of his usefulness this year, but let's not give up on him just yet

Player tracking opposing FG% is an awful way to measure defense, it's random as hell and always appoints a man guarding a shot, even if no one's close to the shooter and actually guarding him. It has led to a lot of misconceptions over the years for people using it, for instance our own CJ Wilcox being one of the "best defenders" in the league for a whole season lol

Listen, I get what you're trying to do, Austin is a better player than most people give him credit for, but the case for him being any sort of meaningful defender, and that making him a better player than Redick, is so thin that it defeats the purpose of what you're trying to argue.

Not giving up on Sindarius at all btw, just trying to keep track of what he's doing and how it projects, rooting like mad for the guy.

[esqtvd]

2014-15 Redick was an incredible defender, don't wanna say elite in the league cause that might be hyperbole, but he was really really good. Most of us Clippers fans will remember how we were supposed to be an impossible match up for the Rockets back then, because of how well Redick nullified Harden. Then that playoff series happened and the next season JJ slipped quite a bit, but he's still a plus defender today.

Austin was a pesky defender that seemed like he was on his way to be a good defender when he first came back here, but as his offense started to improve, his energy on defense declined steeply, and his awareness remains pretty much a zero. I don't think he's ever been a plus defender, all things considered.

Sindarius looks promising on that end, but he makes so many mental errors that I'm not sure what he'll be. Great defenders usually have better positioning than that in their rookie years.

Last year, JJ--guarding their weakest man--yielded an opps FG% 3.4% higher than their average
https://stats.nba.com/player/200755/defense-dash/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Austin, guarding the best opp, yielded -0.2%
https://stats.nba.com/player/203085/defense-dash/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


suggesting JJ's a minus defender and Austin's at least average

as for JJ's now-legendary covering of Harden in one series 3 years ago, that's nice but not probative

as for Sindarius, he's still learning to play guard on both ends
and until he can shoot the 3-ball, he's not a factor anyway
I was skeptical of his usefulness this year, but let's not give up on him just yet

Player tracking opposing FG% is an awful way to measure defense, it's random as hell and always appoints a man guarding a shot, even if no one's close to the shooter and actually guarding him. It has led to a lot of misconceptions over the years for people using it, for instance our own CJ Wilcox being one of the "best defenders" in the league for a whole season lol

Listen, I get what you're trying to do, Austin is a better player than most people give him credit for, but the case for him being any sort of meaningful defender, and that making him a better player than Redick, is so thin that it defeats the purpose of what you're trying to argue.

Not giving up on Sindarius at all btw, just trying to keep track of what he's doing and how it projects, rooting like mad for the guy.

Well, CJ Wilcox never played enough for it to be a meaningful statistical sample. As for applying it to Austin and JJ, who did play enough, it's admittedly a crude tool but it still beats a subjectivity of the "eye test," esp from people who have Rivers Derangement Syndrome [which usually applies to both Doc and Baby Doc].

But leaving that stat out, watching the Sixers game last night, JJ was hidden in the corner on D, just as he was here. Austin attacks the ball. And yes, I see him get caught up in screens and yes, I see his man get around him. But they're the cream of the NBA crop and get around a lot of people, esp merely average defenders--which you're correct, is as high a claim as I would make for Austin. If he was ever a plus defender, he's not one now. Still, he takes on the tougher assignments now that Pat Bev is out for the year. Those guys make a lot of people look bad.

As for Redick, I'll go so far to agree he doesn't blow assignments and rotations, but his lack of athleticism makes him a liability both vertically and horizontally, so you hide him as best you can off the ball. You can't ask him to pressure the ball.