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Marcin Gortat is cooked, washed, completely used up. He's averaging 4.5/6.5 on 41% FG's and basically nothing else.

Montrezl Harrell meanwhile is at 14.5/8 on 81.3% (!) FG's with 1.5 steals and 2.5 blocks over the last couple of games. He's only 24 years old.

Is Rivers that dumb of a coach to not realize who his starting center should really be?

Because Stone Cold said so.

Clips don't want to be too good right now.

They need to be tanking until that pick is worth Jimmy Butler.

That's pretty sad that teams have to resort to this already at this juncture.

Lmao loved realgm 30 topics on the Lakers and Celtics rotations but ours gets moved

TheRealKaboom wrote:Marcin Gortat is cooked, washed, completely used up. He's averaging 4.5/6.5 on 41% FG's and basically nothing else.

Montrezl Harrell meanwhile is at 14.5/8 on 81.3% (!) FG's with 1.5 steals and 2.5 blocks over the last couple of games. He's only 24 years old.

Is Rivers that dumb of a coach to not realize who his starting center should really be?

Trezz went 2-8 in the first game, and drew 5 fouls in only 13 minutes in the second. When he broke out against Houston, he got 24 minutes and got 23 last night. I don't know if Trezz is really good for more than 24 mpg. He plays at such a manic level, he gets gassed.

Gortat's only getting 17 mpg and is averaging 13.6 rpg per 36 minutes. I'd also say he's probably a better complement to the team concept of defense and the P&R game. Trezz is also a bit undersized at 6'8". Maybe he should be starting but I don't think it's dumb to go the other way. Gortat's unspectacular but steady; Trezz is a bit more hot and cold and has feasted on 2nd units.

And Trezz was first off the bench last night at the 6 minute mark when we fell behind 12-7, and we promptly tied the score. I don't think Coach is asleep at the wheel.

esqtvd wrote:And Trezz was first off the bench last night at the 6 minute mark when we fell behind 12-7, and we promptly tied the score. I don't think Coach is asleep at the wheel.

I must've missed something but how did Harrell only log 22 minutes last night when he was a very solid 5-6 from the field with 6 rebounds? You'd think a guy playing this well would be given a bit more court time.

In any case, it's clear to just about everybody but hardcore Clippers fans who are on the take that Harrell should be starting over Gortat. I understand them not wanting to rush SGA but Harrell isn't a rookie, he deserves more PT.

13th Man wrote:

esqtvd wrote:And Trezz was first off the bench last night at the 6 minute mark when we fell behind 12-7, and we promptly tied the score. I don't think Coach is asleep at the wheel.

I must've missed something but how did Harrell only log 22 minutes last night when he was a very solid 5-6 from the field with 6 rebounds? You'd think a guy playing this well would be given a bit more court time.

In any case, it's clear to just about everybody but hardcore Clippers fans who are on the take that Harrell should be starting over Gortat. I understand them not wanting to rush SGA but Harrell isn't a rookie, he deserves more PT.

We fell behind by 14 and needed stops, that's why. Trezz is not a plus defender. As for who should be starting, Gortat's more a "placeholder" starter and Trezz will end up with more minutes than him anyway.

He's a better fit with the starters, he sets hard screens, boxes out well, rolls hard and doesn't need to touch the ball a lot to keep giving effort. If you put Harrell with the starters, guys like Gallo and Tobi will suffer for it. It's not a question of putting together all the guys with the best numbers and things will just work out, you need role players for the other guys to shine. Trez is an energy guy that will fight for rebounds and go hard at the rim, but doesn't help his teammates much, so when he's in, other guys have to focus more in doing the dirty work.

However, I expect in February a bunch of trades will happen a guys like Gortat might get bought out to sign with some contender for a playoff run. Then we're gonna see all of these younger guys playing together and gathering a bunch of losses they can learn from.

Trezz is a high energy, non-stop hustle type of player. To do that for extended mins will tire him out. Gortat is absolutely a placeholder starter.

esqtvd wrote:

13th Man wrote:

esqtvd wrote:And Trezz was first off the bench last night at the 6 minute mark when we fell behind 12-7, and we promptly tied the score. I don't think Coach is asleep at the wheel.

I must've missed something but how did Harrell only log 22 minutes last night when he was a very solid 5-6 from the field with 6 rebounds? You'd think a guy playing this well would be given a bit more court time.

In any case, it's clear to just about everybody but hardcore Clippers fans who are on the take that Harrell should be starting over Gortat. I understand them not wanting to rush SGA but Harrell isn't a rookie, he deserves more PT.

We fell behind by 14 and needed stops, that's why. Trezz is not a plus defender. As for who should be starting, Gortat's more a "placeholder" starter and Trezz will end up with more minutes than him anyway.

This thread here will expose your assertion to be incorrect. Trezz is one of the best defenders in the league.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1760606

illastrate wrote:Trezz is a high energy, non-stop hustle type of player. To do that for extended mins will tire him out. Gortat is absolutely a placeholder starter.

Placeholder for who? There is nobody center the horizon that the Clippers have their sights on. Meanwhile they have 2 other capable centers that are itching for more minutes. Why does Boban only come in down the stretch in the 2nd quarter where he has to go against starters? This guy has little experience and is susceptible to picking up fouls against savvy starters, and even if he plays well you can't afford to play him down the stretch of the 4th because it's too risky. Makes no sense.

Harrell is 24 years old and is hungry, he can surely handle more minutes. Why not make the same argument for Pat Beverley who's 30 years old and is a high energy player as well? Why not bring Bev off the bench then?

Sorry but I think you guys are just making excuses to support the tank. I have no agenda here and can state my opinion objectively as many on the GB have observed as well. It's clear to me that Harrell should be starting, have Boban first off the bench and then Gortat to fill in if Boban doesn't work out. That is the order of your center effectiveness. SGA should also be your starting PG as he is an effective 2-way player.

All good teams have more than 2 weapons on the starting unit. You arleady have non-impact players on the court like Beverley and Bradley, how many do you need just to satisfy Gallo and Tobias? Sorry, I'm not buying this. These 2 guys are nowhere at the level of Curry and Durant, yet the Warriors will load up their starters with Klay, Draymond and Cousins eventually. How come Steven Adams doesn't come off the bench so not to take away from Westbrook and PG. Capela with Harden and CP3 etc.? You guys have it backwards. Tobias and Gallo are not star players, they're only putting up numbers now because you're filling the other 3 positions with mediocracy. What were their numbers with DeAndre? You don't form your lineup around 2 non all-stars.

Note that all of the posters in this thread who are questioning the lineup or pointing out the blatant tank are non-Clipper fans while the Clipper regulars are trying to find any excuse to justify this, i.e. Harrells' poor defense, not enough stamina, Gortat is just a filler for who nobody knows, don't want to hamper Tobias and Gallinaris' scoring.

The only logic I see here is that the Clippers are in no hurry to be good and are tanking. Either that or Doc is and idiot and too stubborn to make the obvious changes that everybody else outside of this organization can see.

It balances the Clippers scorers better to have him off the bench, so that might be a concern with the coaches. The main scorers are Tobi, Gallo, Lou and Trez. If he gets the minutes I'm not concerned about him starting or not. What the starters need is a proper playmaker.

og15 wrote:It balances the Clippers scorers better to have him off the bench, so that might be a concern with the coaches. The main scorers are Tobi, Gallo, Lou and Trez. If he gets the minutes I'm not concerned about him starting or not. What the starters need is a proper playmaker.

I agree that Lou Williams is a 6th man type of player as he's been effective off the bench his entire career. Beverley is not a starting caliber PG, except alongside Harden where he doesn't have to do anything but play defense and shoot corner 3s.

Start SGA instead of Bev and have Bev play alongside Lou on the 2nd unit. SGA is your future PG so why not immerse him into this role now?

13th Man wrote:

esqtvd wrote:

13th Man wrote:
I must've missed something but how did Harrell only log 22 minutes last night when he was a very solid 5-6 from the field with 6 rebounds? You'd think a guy playing this well would be given a bit more court time.

In any case, it's clear to just about everybody but hardcore Clippers fans who are on the take that Harrell should be starting over Gortat. I understand them not wanting to rush SGA but Harrell isn't a rookie, he deserves more PT.

We fell behind by 14 and needed stops, that's why. Trezz is not a plus defender. As for who should be starting, Gortat's more a "placeholder" starter and Trezz will end up with more minutes than him anyway.

This thread here will expose your assertion to be incorrect. Trezz is one of the best defenders in the league.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1760606

Trezz is not going to get you stops like an aggressive ballhawk like Pat Bev or Avery, who were on the floor instead of him--that was all the context of the post was saying, not to down him. Those figures you're quoting are a) a small 5-game sample, garnered b) mostly against 2nd units. The lineup we were going with was 3 guards, Tobias at the 4 and Gallo at the 5 for offense, along with Lou. And the plan worked. We got from 14 down to within 5.

Trezz is also only 6'8" and is a subpar rebounder. He's great against certain matchups like Capella, who's also undersized, but against full-sized centers, well, we shall see. He lacks an outside game to pull guys like Gobert away from the rim, where Trezz makes his living.

Hey, I love the guy. And he should get more minutes than Gortat [and not just because Gortat's sucking]. And he may have turned a corner this year to jump up a notch from an under-20 mpg guy to 25+ mpg. The context of the post was not about that.

If Trez was in the starting five that would mean less touches for Toby and Gallo or Trez himself. All need to produce scoring at a volume rate. The same was Gallo and Harris have an offensive tandem going, Trez has one with Lou off the bench and it works extremely well.

Also, Gortat sets reallllllly nice screens and is actually a defensive plus. In terms of the type of personnel you need a good screener to maximize the efficiency of the looks Harris and Gallo will be getting. Not saying Trez can't do it though.

But I do agree with one thing, if Trez started, that's a lot of offensive trouble to deal with in the starting five, and it would create the need for more scoring off the bench, cue Boban, Jerome and Mike Scott. Not a bad idea if it means Boban gets more playing time haha

Setting screens and making extra passes may not have any effect on box scores, but they are essential for one reason: preventing turnovers. If I did Preventions for Gortat, I could make a case that his screens and extra passes on offense help prevent the opponent from getting steals and contesting shots. Without those screens, the Clippers offense could plummet and the opponent's defense improves. It's a see-saw machine: the better your offense for you, the worse the defensive rating is for your opponent.

13th Man wrote:Placeholder for who?

I'm guessing Montrezl Harrell, based on size. Harrell is 6'9". Doc Rivers is super old school, like "a-starting-center-must-be-6'10"-or-true-7-footer" super old school (for reference, Kendrick Perkins is 6'10").

On a related note, while researching, I've learned that Doc Rivers had an affinity for All Star big men who were in the twilight of their careers when he was coaching the Orlando Magic - Patrick Ewing, Horace Grant, Shawn Kemp. This has been a chronic problem for Doc ever since he started coaching.

13th Man wrote:It's clear to me that Harrell should be starting, have Boban first off the bench and then Gortat to fill in if Boban doesn't work out. That is the order of your center effectiveness. SGA should also be your starting PG as he is an effective 2-way player.

I'd flip Boban and Gortat, as Boban has a mascot-like quality to him. He seems to play well against teams who use traditional big men and who are slow-paced. I once asked a question on another part of the board about which players Boban needs to see in order to be effective - if Clippers were facing Warriors, Rockets, Lakers, any team that is projected to make the playoffs this year, who would they have to put out for Boban to feast on? I'd like some names.

13th Man wrote:All good teams have more than 2 weapons on the starting unit. You already have non-impact players on the court like Beverley and Bradley, how many do you need just to satisfy Gallo and Tobias? Sorry, I'm not buying this. You guys have it backwards. Tobias and Gallo are not star players, they're only putting up numbers now because you're filling the other 3 positions with mediocrity. You don't form your lineup around 2 non all-stars.

This is basically a Princess Lea plea ("Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope"). Outside of superstars, the Clippers have nobody else, so let's pretend that Tobias Harris and Danilo Gallinari are All-Stars, let's keep telling ourselves that so we can believe we have All Stars. Until one of them makes the All-Star Game this year, your point is valid by default. I do want to see Harris prove me wrong, but at the end of the day, the entire roster is best suited as playoff contributors. Ironically, all of the players who are on the roster save for the drafted or bought rookies are nothing more than superstar trade fodder, tantalizing pieces that can fetch you a superstar, and that's what the Rockets and Pistons did to acquire Chris Paul and Blake Griffin respectively. Doc Rivers wants to do the impossible: win a championship without a single superstar. No team in NBA history has ever won a championship without a single accolade (excluding Finals MVP), including an All-Star appearance.

And sorry guys, the 2004 Detroit Pistons team does not count. Ben Wallace made the All-Star Game that year as a reserve.