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Butler > PG13: All things considered

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Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#1 » by Vae Victus » Sun Jul 7, 2019 8:44 pm

Not gonna lie after some time for reflection, im actually a bit disappointed at the turn of events.

I really felt like the PG13 trade was just insanely stupid, but when another elite wing was also available on the market. Sure PG13 is better than Butler, but he isnt SEGA + 6 unprotected FRPs and swaps + 2 protected FRPs better.

Like, i didnt like how the Clippers signaled early on that they werent interested in Butler. I found that pointless and perhaps damaging as Butler and his camp might have been all offended by the declaration.

I really really wished the Clips went hard after Butler and thus used him as the lure for Kawhi. Coulda done a S&T with PHI giving them Gallo + protected FRP, something along those lines, if Kawhi comes, or sign Butler outright otherwise. With Butler on board, then its up to Kawhi to join or not. If Kawhi passes, oh well, at least the team filled the SF spot with an elite player at only the cost of cap space.

I really find it foolish and unwise to bet the future like the way the Clippers did. I mean it wasnt as stupid as the Lakers, since Lebron is going on 35, whereas Kawhi/PG13 are 28/29. Just, i find it irresponsible for a franchise to bet the way they did when other options were available. Hell maybe later on in the season trade for PG13 when its clear to OKC that theyre going nowhere, Gallo + Robinson + bunch of future FRPs wouda been able to swing it. At least the Clippers wouldnt have been under the gun with precious seconds ticking away and thus forced to trade the farm to get Kawhi.

Now of course this is all moot is Kawhi's position is, "**** Butler, PG13 or bust". In which case the Clippers did what they had to do. Personally, even if that was the case, i think i'd still go secure Butler and just try to finesse Kawhi to come join despite not getting his main target. I mean, cmon now, the Lakers are a goddamn mess, and he didnt want to be 2nd banana to Lebron. The Clips with Butler + massive depth + future assets to make future trades is a way better situation.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#2 » by Neddy » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:11 pm

Vae Victus wrote:Not gonna lie after some time for reflection, im actually a bit disappointed at the turn of events.

I really felt like the PG13 trade was just insanely stupid, but when another elite wing was also available on the market. Sure PG13 is better than Butler, but he isnt SEGA + 6 unprotected FRPs and swaps + 2 protected FRPs better.

Like, i didnt like how the Clippers signaled early on that they werent interested in Butler. I found that pointless and perhaps damaging as Butler and his camp might have been all offended by the declaration.

I really really wished the Clips went hard after Butler and thus used him as the lure for Kawhi. Coulda done a S&T with PHI giving them Gallo + protected FRP, something along those lines, if Kawhi comes, or sign Butler outright otherwise. With Butler on board, then its up to Kawhi to join or not. If Kawhi passes, oh well, at least the team filled the SF spot with an elite player at only the cost of cap space.

I really find it foolish and unwise to bet the future like the way the Clippers did. I mean it wasnt as stupid as the Lakers, since Lebron is going on 35, whereas Kawhi/PG13 are 28/29. Just, i find it irresponsible for a franchise to bet the way they did when other options were available. Hell maybe later on in the season trade for PG13 when its clear to OKC that theyre going nowhere, Gallo + Robinson + bunch of future FRPs wouda been able to swing it. At least the Clippers wouldnt have been under the gun with precious seconds ticking away and thus forced to trade the farm to get Kawhi.

Now of course this is all moot is Kawhi's position is, "**** Butler, PG13 or bust". In which case the Clippers did what they had to do. Personally, even if that was the case, i think i'd still go secure Butler and just try to finesse Kawhi to come join despite not getting his main target. I mean, cmon now, the Lakers are a goddamn mess, and he didnt want to be 2nd banana to Lebron. The Clips with Butler + massive depth + future assets to make future trades is a way better situation.


well.

although I agree in your core argument that the level of asset burning of unprecedented magnitude shown, unlike any other clipper brass in history(pun intended), is still very much a concern, I think it was a risk much better worth while taken, than signing one Jimmy Butler to pair up with Kawhi. Jimmy is older, and his combustible personality could easily have soured on people in a hurry. PG13 is not only the better player of the two, but comes with proven non-negative presence in the locker room.

the assets given up is staggering still, and there just is no way around it. but assuming that we not only play Kawhi and PG13 out their current contracts, but sign each of them back for extensions after winning a few western conference ships and a few visit to the finals, we have to consider the probable allocation of those picks lost, would have been close to equal value to early second rounders, as the picks will only be a single digit apart. the 3 unconditional picks of our own we gave up would be in the very late 20s for the 2022 and 2024, and even possibly in 2026 when Kawhi and PG13 would be around 35, 36 years old. even if you consider that we may not eve have them on the roster by 2026, I still think the worst value lost were the Miami picks. swapping picks may be meaningless as those odd years still fall within range of time where our guys should perform to result better team record over OKC.

having said all this, the genius of keeping the Clips in LA by Ballmer shines here. if we can't get a steady flow of young promising talent on cheap for the next 7 years or so, then we can compensate for that by luring in older but capable vets on minimum deals to play with super stars we have, while playing in LA. it would be no different than what lakers got going on, except once we show the league that we are the top team, we will get the benefit of the vets wanting to hitch a ride for the rings. basically, keeping Kawhi and PG happy and winning from here on, is the key to sustain our success going forward. I think our front office and management team is up for the challenge.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#3 » by nickhx2 » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:13 pm

at first i was glad because i thought now that he's gone people would stop using sega to describe shai, even though that nickname literally makes no sense and sounds dumb as all hell

but it seems like him being traded hasn't changed a thing so i don't know what to think anymore
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#4 » by TheNewEra » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:18 pm

Would of been best to plan ahead but those are the breaks
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#5 » by MartinToVaught » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:25 pm

Jimmy is an overrated diva. He's on his third team in the span of a year. He's left every team he's played for on bad terms, except for the Sixers. And even then, it's obvious that he was just on his best behavior for a few months in Philly so he could secure the bag from Miami. I'm perfectly fine with not having him on our team. He doesn't fit with the no-drama, no-nonsense culture we're trying to build.

My main concern with PG is his playoff track record, which is... not great, to say the least. But Kyle Lowry was also known as a playoff choker and Kawhi won a ring with him. Lou didn't have a distinguished track record in the playoffs either - until he balled out against the healthy Warriors this year. Maybe PG will have a similar turnaround.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#6 » by Max Headrom » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:26 pm

We've been over this, BUTLER WANTED MIAMI! He forced his way there, didn't take any meetings with any team. Besides, he's a ticking time bomb. He wanted to be the man and didn't care about winning. Besides, 3 of the picks the Clippers traded were acquired through trades so the picks aren't even as bad as people are making it out to be...
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#7 » by Quake Griffin » Sun Jul 7, 2019 10:48 pm

Can't say I disagree. I'm more than concerned about what to do if this team does something like gets to the WCF and then just gets soundly beaten by GSW. How does the roster get better?

We have our 2020 and 2021 picks, so we have, at the very least, one trade we can make without it being on draft night.
Plus I trust our front office to not be stupid and do things like acquire more assets so that they can add to this roster unlike yester year where we just added turds like Geoff Green.

Jimmy had issues in Chicago and Minnesota. I dunno if they're his fault or not, I don't care tbh. His issues with players shouldn't really be leading to bad departures with franchises. He also has been run into the ground by Thibs. I wonder how long he will last over the life of his contract.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#8 » by FlipFlopShot » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:19 pm

Am I missing something?
Wasn't PG13 the up and coming star that went head to head with Lebron and Kobe?
Wasn't PG13 who lead an Indiana era?

This is full Westbrook OKC effect in full force.

Got a new bionic leg and still clutch. Completely underappreciating the type of star we got here.
Both Kawhi and PG13 challenged Lebron and Kobe.
(Anthony Davis? Jimmy Butler? Their CV are still a bit lacking.)
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#9 » by TucsonClip » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:33 pm

Na, im good.
Plus, why would I want to go to the NBA? Duke players suck in the pros.

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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#10 » by esqtvd » Mon Jul 8, 2019 1:01 am

Max Headrom wrote:We've been over this, BUTLER WANTED MIAMI! He forced his way there, didn't take any meetings with any team. Besides, he's a ticking time bomb. He wanted to be the man and didn't care about winning. Besides, 3 of the picks the Clippers traded were acquired through trades so the picks aren't even as bad as people are making it out to be...


2 of the picks are from Miami, 3 are ours. Only the unprotected one is worth warm spit. That why you have to make such a big package with the others. That's why Minnesota turned down Houston's offer of 4 of them for Butler in the first place.

The first-round pick we traded to Boston to get Doc turned into RJ Hunter--out of the league. The one we traded to the Bucks to get rid of Dudley was traded for the immortal Greivis Vasquez. The much whined-about pick we traded to get Jeff Green--who played pretty well for us--was traded 3 times and ended up this year with the Sixers, who drafted Matisse Thybulle, a defensive role-player projected never to start anywhere in the NBA.

It's unlikely the 2022 or 2024 pick that we spent to get MVP candidate Paul George will ever amount to much in the NBA. And even if one does, it's just the luck of the dice. We really didn't "mortgage our future" except maybe--only maybe--the 2026 pick [we might suck by then and the pick will have some real value], but even still, you have to give something to get something.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#11 » by Vae Victus » Mon Jul 8, 2019 3:05 am

If the Clips can win 2 chips during this window, then its worth 10 years of high lotto suffering.

Lakers are also in the same boat with their even more insanely stupid AD trade, with their lynchpin being a 35 year old Lebron. Man talk about blowing up in their faces badly. Sure they'll prolly be good for the next 2 years, but the post Lebron era is basically gonna coincide with their owed picks and pick swaps. Lakers better win 2 as well, cuz they literally gave up 10 years worth of FRPs for AD.

I swear, i wonder if KD was willing to pair up with Kawhi in LAC, if it woulda been better. Next year would be a wash year as KD is recovering, but same situation, all the FRPs kept. GSW woulda taken Gallo since that's better than nothing, and the roster basically be the same except SEGA is still around.

Basically subtract Gallo but add Kawhi, which should result in at least a mid tier seed, but unlikely to win a chip. Then 2020 is a full strength Clipper squad, along with all their picks.

Ugh, i just never woulda imagined a trade of this magnitude. It's just litearlly insane. I was so sure it was gonna be Butler or KD.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#12 » by MartinToVaught » Mon Jul 8, 2019 5:42 am

The AD trade is way more costly for two reasons:

1. AD is a rental, which means that if the Lakers turn out to be an underachieving and dysfunctional team once again this year (which is certainly possible), he could easily just leave. Then they're screwed for a decade. We have Kawhi and PG for several years.

2. The Lakers' front office isn't capable of seemingly getting draft picks out of thin air like ours is. The way we somehow managed to get Miami to give us another first rounder for free in the Butler trade is why I'm not worried about trading so much draft capital. Losing SGA stung more than losing the picks. It's also not like we're totally devoid of picks over the next few years like the Nets were.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#13 » by DieHardFan » Mon Jul 8, 2019 6:27 am

Vae Victus wrote:If the Clips can win 2 chips during this window, then its worth 10 years of high lotto suffering.

Lakers are also in the same boat with their even more insanely stupid AD trade, with their lynchpin being a 35 year old Lebron. Man talk about blowing up in their faces badly. Sure they'll prolly be good for the next 2 years, but the post Lebron era is basically gonna coincide with their owed picks and pick swaps. Lakers better win 2 as well, cuz they literally gave up 10 years worth of FRPs for AD.

I swear, i wonder if KD was willing to pair up with Kawhi in LAC, if it woulda been better. Next year would be a wash year as KD is recovering, but same situation, all the FRPs kept. GSW woulda taken Gallo since that's better than nothing, and the roster basically be the same except SEGA is still around.

Basically subtract Gallo but add Kawhi, which should result in at least a mid tier seed, but unlikely to win a chip. Then 2020 is a full strength Clipper squad, along with all their picks.

Ugh, i just never woulda imagined a trade of this magnitude. It's just litearlly insane. I was so sure it was gonna be Butler or KD.


The way you finding a way to downgrade PG deal makes me sad bro.

PG is 29 and willing to team up with Kawhi. Again, willing to team up with Kawhi. Willing to be his Pippen. You should wake up and realize what's has been build in last 2 days.

Butler and KD? smh. I seriously in doubt If KD has winning motivation anymore when teamed up with Kyrie and those injuries. Butler has no business with winning, If so he would stayed with Sixers. Butler is just wants a team to hang whom plays hard without thinking about the gamescore or season success.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#14 » by Don Tommy » Mon Jul 8, 2019 8:07 am

We wouldn’t have had one of those picks if Butler wasn’t traded to Miami in the first place. I’m looking at it as if that pick never existed. We go Kawhi, PG and Mo Harkless for Gallo, SGA and 4 late first round picks. Would we have traded two first round picks for Kawhi? Yes. Would we have traded two first round picks for PG13? Yes. And Mo comes in for free because of our FO. I was a little shocked at first as well but looking at it now, the only thing we’ve lost is the ability to trade these picks again.

We’re going to be players in the buyout market, something I’ve always hated. We’re going to get the guys chasing rings next year. Speaking of, I don’t see how we can keep Harrell next year, he’s going to get paid big!
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#15 » by QRich3 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 9:56 am

Paul George is a lot better than Butler imo, he's a lot better of a fit, and will age a lot better too. I understand he cost an insanely expensive price that made us all pause and think if it was worth it, even in what probably was the biggest day in our franchise's history. But he maximizes our chances at a championship a lot more than Butler.

If we end up having the bad luck of not getting anything done and top at the WCF or something like that, even if we get into a half decade hell without picks like the Nets did, I will think it was worth it anyway. Chances like this don't happen every decade, or every two decades even. Half the teams in the league have been waiting their whole history for an opportunity like this, and they will probably keep waiting for a long time. When something like this arises, you have to go all in, and if you get a bad hand and lose, it is what it is.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#16 » by KG Leonard » Mon Jul 8, 2019 10:54 am

PG13 is better player ,better shooter, the only thing Bulter has on the same level as PG13 is his elite defence.

I think you guys should be very happy that you got PG13 and not another superstar or allstar. PG13 is a rare top 10 level player that can still thrive as second option. Players way inferior to Kawhi might like Butler think they should be the closer, first option.

The most important reason for not needing Bulter here is that the guy can't stay on a team, can't stop being too much presence in the locker room. You guys might lose Kawhi if Bulter made a mess for Kawhi who hates drama, crazy sports media attention. Risk losing Kawhi for Bulter is crazy idea...


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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#17 » by madmaxmedia » Mon Jul 8, 2019 6:13 pm

esqtvd wrote:
Max Headrom wrote:We've been over this, BUTLER WANTED MIAMI! He forced his way there, didn't take any meetings with any team. Besides, he's a ticking time bomb. He wanted to be the man and didn't care about winning. Besides, 3 of the picks the Clippers traded were acquired through trades so the picks aren't even as bad as people are making it out to be...


2 of the picks are from Miami, 3 are ours. Only the unprotected one is worth warm spit. That why you have to make such a big package with the others. That's why Minnesota turned down Houston's offer of 4 of them for Butler in the first place.

The first-round pick we traded to Boston to get Doc turned into RJ Hunter--out of the league. The one we traded to the Bucks to get rid of Dudley was traded for the immortal Greivis Vasquez. The much whined-about pick we traded to get Jeff Green--who played pretty well for us--was traded 3 times and ended up this year with the Sixers, who drafted Matisse Thybulle, a defensive role-player projected never to start anywhere in the NBA.

It's unlikely the 2022 or 2024 pick that we spent to get MVP candidate Paul George will ever amount to much in the NBA. And even if one does, it's just the luck of the dice. We really didn't "mortgage our future" except maybe--only maybe--the 2026 pick [we might suck by then and the pick will have some real value], but even still, you have to give something to get something.


Thanks for the recap regarding all those picks. I mean anything can happen, but late 1st round picks usually net you backup players at best (which is why keeping Shamet was so important, vs. say giving up one less pick.) Even that 2021 unprotected Miami pick is now looking worse than expected with their acquisition of Butler, and will get worse again if they actually trade for Westbrook.

That being said we did give up a haul. But in the end the big difference between what happened and OP's Butler scenario, is that Kawhi was a sure thing if we landed Paul. If we traded for Butler (or signed him outright) but couldn't land Kawhi, that's the worst case scenario IMO. There was a huge net value of signing Kawhi as a free agent, and the Clippers ultimately had to share some of that value with OKC to make it all happen (while still improving the team on the floor for the next 2 seasons.)
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#18 » by madmaxmedia » Mon Jul 8, 2019 6:17 pm

DieHardFan wrote:
Vae Victus wrote:If the Clips can win 2 chips during this window, then its worth 10 years of high lotto suffering.

Lakers are also in the same boat with their even more insanely stupid AD trade, with their lynchpin being a 35 year old Lebron. Man talk about blowing up in their faces badly. Sure they'll prolly be good for the next 2 years, but the post Lebron era is basically gonna coincide with their owed picks and pick swaps. Lakers better win 2 as well, cuz they literally gave up 10 years worth of FRPs for AD.

I swear, i wonder if KD was willing to pair up with Kawhi in LAC, if it woulda been better. Next year would be a wash year as KD is recovering, but same situation, all the FRPs kept. GSW woulda taken Gallo since that's better than nothing, and the roster basically be the same except SEGA is still around.

Basically subtract Gallo but add Kawhi, which should result in at least a mid tier seed, but unlikely to win a chip. Then 2020 is a full strength Clipper squad, along with all their picks.

Ugh, i just never woulda imagined a trade of this magnitude. It's just litearlly insane. I was so sure it was gonna be Butler or KD.


The way you finding a way to downgrade PG deal makes me sad bro.

PG is 29 and willing to team up with Kawhi. Again, willing to team up with Kawhi. Willing to be his Pippen. You should wake up and realize what's has been build in last 2 days.

Butler and KD? smh. I seriously in doubt If KD has winning motivation anymore when teamed up with Kyrie and those injuries. Butler has no business with winning, If so he would stayed with Sixers. Butler is just wants a team to hang whom plays hard without thinking about the gamescore or season success.


It appears that Jimmy Butler wants to win- but on his terms which means clearly being 'the man' on his team. It's hard to imagine why he'd leave the Sixers otherwise.

So not only must we ask if Kawhi would want to join the Clippers had we acquired Butler, but whether Butler himself would want to be a part of that scenario. I think it's very possible they just weren't gonna be a good fit as teammates going forward, and they knew this.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#19 » by Vae Victus » Mon Jul 8, 2019 6:37 pm

I was kinda starting to think the Moe Harkless trade was a bad thing at one point, before JaMychal Green re-signed for the Room Exception (i didnt expect this tbh, after seeing what other players of his caliber were getting).

If Harkless + MIA protected FRP didnt happen, i still think OKC woulda done the trade. OKC getting 4 unprotected LAC/MIA FRPs and pick swaps, makes getting that extra protected FRP seem like nothing.

No Harkless on the cap means another 11mil to spend, which brings up the spare cap total to 14mil (remember this is before all the FAs are re-signed over their capholds, pre PG13 trade, and pre Room Exception used). I felt the Clippers getting an elite role player for 14mil was a better use of money since Harkless is pretty meh. Hell i prolly woulda used most of it to retain JaGreen at least, on a 3yr 27-30mil type of deal, then used the rest on another role player C, and the room exception on backup PG.

However with JaGreen re-signing, it does make most of my objections go away. I dont think Harkless is worth his contract, but at least the team has solid 3/4 depth now, to allow proper load management for Kawhi and PG13.

Now we need a backup vet playmaking PG, for whatever is left for the cap and the team is ready to goto war.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#20 » by itsme23 » Mon Jul 8, 2019 10:01 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:Jimmy is an overrated diva. He's on his third team in the span of a year. He's left every team he's played for on bad terms, except for the Sixers. And even then, it's obvious that he was just on his best behavior for a few months in Philly so he could secure the bag from Miami. I'm perfectly fine with not having him on our team. He doesn't fit with the no-drama, no-nonsense culture we're trying to build.

My main concern with PG is his playoff track record, which is... not great, to say the least. But Kyle Lowry was also known as a playoff choker and Kawhi won a ring with him. Lou didn't have a distinguished track record in the playoffs either - until he balled out against the healthy Warriors this year. Maybe PG will have a similar turnaround.


Don’t know too much about George’s playoff stretches but as a raps fan letting you know Lowrys playoff stretches were blown out of proportion.

He truly had one bad player stretch and the other year he was injured. The rest of the playoffs he was always our best player and our most consistent player. If you look at Lowrys game 7 numbers their something ridiculous.

One thing Kawhi will bring George that he brought Lowry is calmness and full confidence.

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