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Butler > PG13: All things considered

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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#21 » by RoyceDa59 » Tue Jul 9, 2019 2:35 am

Kawhi wanted George. The price of Shai + Gallo + 5 picks was for George and Kawhi, so it was worth it.


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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#22 » by anotherhomer » Tue Jul 9, 2019 3:11 am

as a raptors fan, PG gave raptors a lot of issues in the playoffs, and was also the reason why an underdog indiana team took cavs to 7 games, while raptors got swept by the same cavs in 4 games....
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#23 » by donemilio21 » Tue Jul 9, 2019 7:20 pm

We only had 5 first round picks in the last 8 years. Probably only Shai worked out/was on his way of working out as a solid player)
Shai
Jerome
Brice Johnson
CJ WIlcox
Reggie Bullock

One would argue that it's a crapshoot if you are not picking in the top 10, but also could argue the more draft picks you have, more chances you have to pick a contributor.

We didn't have a 1st round pick in the 2011 draft because we gave that to Cleveland to dump Baron Davis. While you couldn't have foreseen that being #1 in the lottery, it was surely to be around #8-14. Kemba Walker, Klay Thomson, Kawhi, Vucevic and Butler went #9 or later. Franchise altering miss right there.

in 2012, we would have had the #10 pick. best available players would have been Austin Rivers, Meyers Leonard, Jeremy Lamb, Miles Plumlee, Mo Harkless. Would not have made much of a difference.

in 2015, we would have had the #28 pick, we traded for Jeff Green to Boston. Best available players we could have selected: Cedi Osman, Kevin Looney, Monterzl Harrell.

In 2017, we would have had the #23 pick, we traded it along with Dudley, to get Delfino and Radulijac in 2014 (Doc then traded another 1st rounder to get Dudley back :) ) That pick could have been Kuzma, OG Anunby, Josh Hart at best.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#24 » by esqtvd » Tue Jul 9, 2019 7:54 pm

donemilio21 wrote:We only had 5 first round picks in the last 8 years. Probably only Shai worked out/was on his way of working out as a solid player)
Shai
Jerome
Brice Johnson
CJ WIlcox
Reggie Bullock

One would argue that it's a crapshoot if you are not picking in the top 10, but also could argue the more draft picks you have, more chances you have to pick a contributor.

We didn't have a 1st round pick in the 2011 draft because we gave that to Cleveland to dump Baron Davis. While you couldn't have foreseen that being #1 in the lottery, it was surely to be around #8-14. Kemba Walker, Klay Thomson, Kawhi, Vucevic and Butler went #9 or later. Franchise altering miss right there.

in 2012, we would have had the #10 pick. best available players would have been Austin Rivers, Meyers Leonard, Jeremy Lamb, Miles Plumlee, Mo Harkless. Would not have made much of a difference.

in 2015, we would have had the #28 pick, we traded for Jeff Green to Boston. Best available players we could have selected: Cedi Osman, Kevin Looney, Monterzl Harrell.

In 2017, we would have had the #23 pick, we traded it along with Dudley, to get Delfino and Radulijac in 2014 (Doc then traded another 1st rounder to get Dudley back :) ) That pick could have been Kuzma, OG Anunby, Josh Hart at best.



Not much there. Olshey gets the blame for the Baron Davis thing. As for the rest, Hart's OK and Kuzma's a hit but

    Prior to the draft, Kuzma had been projected to go in the second round or even undrafted.

so you have to put that one down to hitting the longshot rather than any true genius. The same braintrust took Lonzo Ball in the same draft, a shortshot that turned out to be a fragile guy with truly horrible shot mechanics.

Anunoby might become a player, but it's 5 years later and he's still only put up 7 ppg and will be a RFA after this season. The better he plays, the more he'll cost next year.


It's also important to remember that the Sterling era gave us the worst, smallest, and most underpaid scouting department in the league when we took Bullock, Wilcox and Brice. We were pretty screwed from the get-go.


Jerome Robinson shows promise, but still might turn out to be a nonfactor in the NBA, and that was with the 13th pick and the biggest and presumably best scouting department in the league. You never know.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#25 » by NippySudz » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:27 am

PG is more proven than Jimmy Butler. Probably more proven than Jimmy will ever be.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#26 » by 50CalClips » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:53 am

I wouldn't want Jimmy Butler for free.

He's another Carmelo Anthony. Wouldn't want either guy on Clippers, ever.

I like him on the Knicks. I like him on Miami.
In L.A.? No thanks.



(what an odd Troll Thread)
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#27 » by 50CalClips » Fri Aug 9, 2019 1:57 am

Paul George is taylor-made for the Clippers.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#28 » by madmaxmedia » Fri Aug 9, 2019 5:04 pm

The main value of OKC's draft pick haul may be to bundle as assets in another trade, just as we ended up doing. Late 1sts are a crapshoot, but if you package 3 or 4 (or 5) together then it starts to look more alluring.

The trade was only possible because of our ability to extract net value out of even the smallest trades, getting a 1st for Harkless's contract, getting a starting big man in return for a throwaway player, etc. Or just being able to get Shamet in the Harris trade package.

Hypothetically signing Jimmy Butler and Kawhi as FA's certainly means giving up less, but the PG/Kawhi combo gives us a significantly better chance at a title in the next 2 years, which also affects the calculus going forward- IF we end up re-signing both then IMO it's a no-brainer in the end we took the best path forward. Because the value of PG's remaining years is much better than Jimmy Butler's.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#29 » by Quake Griffin » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:42 am

PG is on his IG smoking hookah.

Lame.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#30 » by TheNewEra » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:09 pm

donemilio21 wrote:We only had 5 first round picks in the last 8 years. Probably only Shai worked out/was on his way of working out as a solid player)
Shai
Jerome
Brice Johnson
CJ WIlcox
Reggie Bullock

One would argue that it's a crapshoot if you are not picking in the top 10, but also could argue the more draft picks you have, more chances you have to pick a contributor.

We didn't have a 1st round pick in the 2011 draft because we gave that to Cleveland to dump Baron Davis. While you couldn't have foreseen that being #1 in the lottery, it was surely to be around #8-14. Kemba Walker, Klay Thomson, Kawhi, Vucevic and Butler went #9 or later. Franchise altering miss right there.

in 2012, we would have had the #10 pick. best available players would have been Austin Rivers, Meyers Leonard, Jeremy Lamb, Miles Plumlee, Mo Harkless. Would not have made much of a difference.

in 2015, we would have had the #28 pick, we traded for Jeff Green to Boston. Best available players we could have selected: Cedi Osman, Kevin Looney, Monterzl Harrell.

In 2017, we would have had the #23 pick, we traded it along with Dudley, to get Delfino and Radulijac in 2014 (Doc then traded another 1st rounder to get Dudley back :) ) That pick could have been Kuzma, OG Anunby, Josh Hart at best.


Doc was truly a horrible GM
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#31 » by esqtvd » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:50 am

TheNewEra wrote:
donemilio21 wrote:We only had 5 first round picks in the last 8 years. Probably only Shai worked out/was on his way of working out as a solid player)
Shai
Jerome
Brice Johnson
CJ WIlcox
Reggie Bullock

One would argue that it's a crapshoot if you are not picking in the top 10, but also could argue the more draft picks you have, more chances you have to pick a contributor.

We didn't have a 1st round pick in the 2011 draft because we gave that to Cleveland to dump Baron Davis. While you couldn't have foreseen that being #1 in the lottery, it was surely to be around #8-14. Kemba Walker, Klay Thomson, Kawhi, Vucevic and Butler went #9 or later. Franchise altering miss right there.

in 2012, we would have had the #10 pick. best available players would have been Austin Rivers, Meyers Leonard, Jeremy Lamb, Miles Plumlee, Mo Harkless. Would not have made much of a difference.

in 2015, we would have had the #28 pick, we traded for Jeff Green to Boston. Best available players we could have selected: Cedi Osman, Kevin Looney, Monterzl Harrell.

In 2017, we would have had the #23 pick, we traded it along with Dudley, to get Delfino and Radulijac in 2014 (Doc then traded another 1st rounder to get Dudley back :) ) That pick could have been Kuzma, OG Anunby, Josh Hart at best.


Doc was truly a horrible GM



mediocre certainly, but this thread has a lot of facts in it [see also more posts above] that show a lot of the whining is still about what amounted to very little
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#32 » by BigRedDog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:19 am

nickhx2 wrote:at first i was glad because i thought now that he's gone people would stop using sega to describe shai, even though that nickname literally makes no sense and sounds dumb as all hell

but it seems like him being traded hasn't changed a thing so i don't know what to think anymore


Everyday i call my friend for like 30 mins and we discuss who to play on draftkings that night while we're at work. To throw unsuspecting co-workers off the scent i will call from a work phone and use code names for all players so people wont know Im talking about sports and gambling. I play him a good bit and I always call him "Shy Gorgeous"
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#33 » by TrueLAfan » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:32 pm

First--we need to get past the "so many picks!" thing. We got the picks in trades. We dealt them in a trade, and walked out with the best player. Madmaxmedia said it--that's what you do with draft picks.

What we are largely doing is betting on ourselves. The Clippers picks are less and less valuable the better the team is. Unless the team really goes down—I’m talking about turning into a 30-win team—those picks are likely to in the low teens to high twenties. I posted about this earlier; you just don’t build teams around picks like that. You can sometimes, occasionally, find very good or even outstanding players. But, just as often, you get lumps of coal. And, most of the time, you get mid-level rotation players.

What you do with picks is group them to trade for higher drafts picks, or make trade them trade chips in acquiring better players that put you into the championship equation. A perfect example is … the Clippers and Paul George. Gallo is a borderline all-star; a very good player when healthy. But he’s an injury risk. A big chunk of his value is/was in being an expiring contract that can be dealt for something more useful. SGA is already a good player with the potential of being of being a very good to excellent player; possibly at Gallo’s level. (I’d put the over/under a smidge higher—a guy who makes an occasional all-star game.) But that is still several years away. Right now, they are #3 or #4 and #5 or #6 players on a championship caliber team.

Paul George is a borderline Batman; definitely a top 10 player in the league. He’s both an All-NBA and an All-D player. He’s in the middle of his peak period. He is, IMO, a much smaller injury concern than people think. People remember his horrific injury and think that this statement is crazy. But … in the two seasons before he got hurt, he averaged 80 games a year and was in the top 10 in minutes played each year. In the four years since the injury, he’s averaged 78 games a year and has been in the top 10 in minutes played in 3 of the 4 years. He’s coming off his best season. A guy like that is ideally what you trade draft picks and players for. He is a #2 (or #1) player on a title contender. And he’ll keep those team picks you traded away low, low, low.

And, yeah, I’d have him over Butler six days a week and twice on Sunday. Everything you can say about effort and leadership with Butler, you can say about George. Here’s one for you—taking out the injury season, George’s teams have won 58% of their games. So the teams have been good; but he’s been a leader on those teams. His winning percentage in those seasons in close to 60%. He only missed 21 games in those seven seasons. When Paul George played, his teams went 320-217. When he didn’t, they were 5-16. I’m not sure if Jimmy Butler had as much impact on his teams; I do know that he played less, is older, and complained more. Butler is a really good player, but he’s not what I think of as a “team first” guy.

So, yeah, I'll go with PG in this case all the way.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#34 » by ThunderBolt » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:50 pm

FlipFlopShot wrote:Am I missing something?
Wasn't PG13 the up and coming star that went head to head with Lebron and Kobe?
Wasn't PG13 who lead an Indiana era?

This is full Westbrook OKC effect in full force.

Got a new bionic leg and still clutch. Completely underappreciating the type of star we got here.
Both Kawhi and PG13 challenged Lebron and Kobe.
(Anthony Davis? Jimmy Butler? Their CV are still a bit lacking.)

I thought pg had a pretty good playoff reputation until two years ago. He really sucked in game 6 of the playoffs against Utah. This year he was beat down in the Portland series. The idea that he is a playoff choker is kind of a new thing.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#35 » by QRich3 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:07 am

TrueLAfan wrote:First--we need to get past the "so many picks!" thing. We got the picks in trades. We dealt them in a trade, and walked out with the best player. Madmaxmedia said it--that's what you do with draft picks.

What we are largely doing is betting on ourselves. The Clippers picks are less and less valuable the better the team is. Unless the team really goes down—I’m talking about turning into a 30-win team—those picks are likely to in the low teens to high twenties. I posted about this earlier; you just don’t build teams around picks like that. You can sometimes, occasionally, find very good or even outstanding players. But, just as often, you get lumps of coal. And, most of the time, you get mid-level rotation players.

I am ok with the trade, I'm overly excited for next season, and I'd probably have pulled the trigger just as they did. And I will prefer PG to Butler 7 days a week and twice on a Sunday, even before you realize George wanted to come here cause he loves our franchise.

But I don't think we should downplay the downside of it, worst case scenario is the biggest implosion modern NBA's ever seen, and that's no thing to scoff at. The Miami picks ok, but we gave the rights to 5 of our unprotected picks starting 3 years from now. Worst case scenario is everything goes wrong next couple years, both Kawhi and George bail in 2021, we get no other free agents, most of our front office leaves for better jobs, and we find ourselves being the worst team in the league with a bad roster in 2022. And like the Nets did, we'd be giving top 3 pick after top 3 pick for half a decade to another team, with no way to improve and a terrible on court product. Just in the years we move to a new stadium.

I don't think that scenario is very likely, but it's possible, and we need to be aware that it can happen. That it is a possibility we risked for what's going to happen next season.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#36 » by mdenny » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:36 am

itsme23 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Jimmy is an overrated diva. He's on his third team in the span of a year. He's left every team he's played for on bad terms, except for the Sixers. And even then, it's obvious that he was just on his best behavior for a few months in Philly so he could secure the bag from Miami. I'm perfectly fine with not having him on our team. He doesn't fit with the no-drama, no-nonsense culture we're trying to build.

My main concern with PG is his playoff track record, which is... not great, to say the least. But Kyle Lowry was also known as a playoff choker and Kawhi won a ring with him. Lou didn't have a distinguished track record in the playoffs either - until he balled out against the healthy Warriors this year. Maybe PG will have a similar turnaround.


Don’t know too much about George’s playoff stretches but as a raps fan letting you know Lowrys playoff stretches were blown out of proportion.

He truly had one bad player stretch and the other year he was injured. The rest of the playoffs he was always our best player and our most consistent player. If you look at Lowrys game 7 numbers their something ridiculous.

One thing Kawhi will bring George that he brought Lowry is calmness and full confidence.



The raps v pacers series was what first really opened my eyes to how good PG13 was. Even tho the raps eventually won....PG was clearly the best player in that series by a WIDE margin. On BOTH sides of the floor. He is the perfect compliment to Kawhi. If they stay healthy along with Beverly at point...I don't understand how anyone is gonna score on them.
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Re: Butler > PG13: All things considered 

Post#37 » by minimus » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:11 pm

As MIN fan, I think that PG13 is just a better fit with Kawhi than Butler. Let me explain.

Butler is an ISO scorer, he is not someone who will easily adjust his style playing with another star. He does not rely on his 3pt shot to score. IMO he is not someone how can constantly generate offense for himself and for others, like Harden, Kawhi. He needs to have ball in his hands in order to use his footwork and body control to score.

PG13 can act as off ball scorer, long-range shooter when it is needed, he can convert open 3pt opportunities into points by shooting over defense. He can play with Kawhi without creating chemistry issues.

In terms of passing, injuries and defense I think they are on the same level.

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