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The offense and what it's supposed to be

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The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#1 » by nickhx2 » Sat Dec 7, 2019 8:28 pm

Obviously the blowout against the bucks showed the team isn't at all where it wants to be. And i hear a lot of "why isn't the team doing this? or doing that?" And i'd say that 1000% has to do with lack of practices, where both pg and kawhi are healthy. They mentioned on the cast last night that they'd only recently had their first practice, so if you really think about it, the team's only going to be doing their first real work together 25% of the way in.

Some relevant quotes from last night's game: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28241293/giannis-antetokounmpo-bucks-rout-clippers-14th-straight-win

--
The Clippers came into this game having scored 130 or more points five times, reaching 150 twice. But Rivers wanted everyone to know the Clippers' offense isn't nearly as good as the statistics indicate as he tries to integrate Leonard and George amid disruptions due to injuries and little to no practice time.

"We have not maximized them offensively yet," Rivers said of Leonard and George. "We keep looking at our offensive numbers, and I've been saying it: It's fool's gold. We're not ready offensively yet. And our numbers say different. But this is where analytically, I'm right. I can see it."
--

Meanwhile, Leonard left Milwaukee with the Clippers' worst loss of the season as he says the Clippers are still learning their playbook.

"We're just a work in progress," Leonard said. "This team is just really kind of put together this year. We've got to figure it out. Some of us don't know the plays coming down, and it's hard to get in our sets. We've just got to keep striving."

Asked about playing with George, Leonard added, "We just have to get comfortable with the plays, just going out there and being able to run it without thinking, getting into our spots early. The flow will come."
--

Certainly, none of this is me thinking i'm worried or not worried. I definitely have my concerns. But what i really care about are the things that i expect to see come to life as the season goes on.

Things i think we don't have that we'll get rolling which will make the team really difficult to deal with on offense:

1. Last year's offense: basically all that cool dribble/hand-off action we used to see i think will likely make its way back soon enough, with practice. This is probably the most important thing for them to get right, as it's why the team hasn't really identified a starting, playmaking PG as an area of need. Once the starters gain some progress and familiarity with this, i expect to see way less pure ISO/bailout possessions than we get now. But this is gonna take time.

2. A revived lou/harrell dynamic off the bench: it used to feel like that these two guys, in a way, took turns scoring once they both came into the game together. Maybe it's just me, i dunno, but i don't see nearly as much of the stuff that made them so special together. It's just not consistent. And i suspect a lot of that has to do with how doc is trying to stagger kawhi and george. I'm not super worried about this either, as i think this is really all just a big adjustment period.

3. Timing and chemistry: i see kawhi/george trying REALLY hard to force interior passes, but usually just failing lol. As i said in the game thread, i don't really mind because this is how they're gonna figure it out. But we've seen how kawhi matches up well with zubac, and we've seen guys like beverley and hark find their shots and places to shoot. And at some point kawhi's going to stop passing up open shots and the team, hopefully, should start to feel like it has some serious structure on offense.

So, IMO it's important for us to watch out for these things. And if they start developing steadily, then i think we can feel good about the progress of the team. Everyone just needs time.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#2 » by Yogatti » Sat Dec 7, 2019 9:05 pm

None of this matters. The only way we will win a title is if we fire Doc Rivers. Only an imbecile like him would struggle to win games with Paul George and Kawhi Leonard on the team
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#3 » by esqtvd » Sat Dec 7, 2019 9:42 pm

All this Doc-bashing is built on a false premise, that he has no plan or plays.

Frankly, the players think they can just BS their way through--and mostly they've gotten away with it. Doc knows better, but all you can do is let them fail before they come around and get serious.



https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256383/Doc-Rivers-On-Clippers-Offense-Its-Fools-Gold

    "We keep looking at our offensive numbers, and I've been saying it: It's fool's gold. We're not ready offensively yet. And our numbers say different. But this is where analytically, I'm right. I can see it," said Rivers of Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.

    Leonard, George, and Lou Williams shot 15-for-39 on the night.

    Leonard admitted that the offense is still struggling to get into a flow.

    "We just have to get comfortable with the plays, just going out there and being able to run it without thinking, getting into our spots early. The flow will come."

_______________________

ADD: Via Jovan Buha. Doc's been trying to wake them up. Maybe this blowout will help.

https://theathletic.com/1436823/2019/12/07/its-fools-gold-clippers-humbled-by-bucks-in-embarrassing-blowout-loss/?source=shared-article


    “I’ve been saying it every game, and nobody wants to hear it,” Rivers said. “We keep looking at our offensive numbers, and I’ve been saying it: It’s fool’s gold. We’re not ready offensively yet. And our numbers say different. But this is where, analytically, I’m right. I can see it. I said it. What did we have, 140 the other night? I said, ‘Guys, we’re not a good offensive team yet.’

    “People look at me like I’m nuts. I think tonight is a great example of that.”

    Multiple Clippers players agreed with Rivers’ assessment that the team is still far from its potential offensively. Williams believes the Clippers have gotten by with their individual offensive firepower over legitimate chemistry.

    “That’s just talent getting us over,” Williams said. “Talent is getting us through a lot of these games. And what we are going to need to be successful at a high level is going to have to be chemistry; it is going to have to be everybody is going to know where everybody is on the floor and know all the positions. And that stuff comes over time."
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#4 » by MartinToVaught » Sun Dec 8, 2019 6:09 am

Weird how Kawhi could win multiple Finals MVPs and PG could contend for MVP just fine without Doc, but now they suddenly "think they can BS their way through."

Poor Doc. He's never led the Clippers past the second round of the playoffs no matter who's on the roster, but somehow it's never his fault. :roll:

There is truly no limit to how intellectually dishonest you can be to shift all blame away from Doc.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#5 » by esqtvd » Sun Dec 8, 2019 6:32 am

MartinToVaught wrote:Weird how Kawhi could win multiple Finals MVPs and PG could contend for MVP just fine without Doc, but now they suddenly "think they can BS their way through."

Poor Doc. He's never led the Clippers past the second round of the playoffs no matter who's on the roster, but somehow it's never his fault. :roll:





I would agree with you if the facts were on your side. I have posted the facts. The team has been coasting on talent alone. Lou said so himself.

Doc--as is his job--has already been trying to get everybody serious about taking the offense to a championship level. But it's barely December and the players are just trying to get healthy and get acclimated to a new city, a new team, and a new scheme. In reality, this team has been together less than a month. Of the rotation, only Lou, Trezz and Beverley were even Clippers last year at this time.


Doc is already doing, planning, thinking and saying all the things you're saying he should. Your software is out of date. Please read what I post. It's all there.


There is truly no limit to how intellectually dishonest you can be to shift all blame away from Doc.



Settle down, Mike Smith. Don't be getting all nasty on us. This is supposed to be fun. :D
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#6 » by Dynamix » Sun Dec 8, 2019 8:50 am

Yogatti wrote:None of this matters. The only way we will win a title is if we fire Doc Rivers. Only an imbecile like him would struggle to win games with Paul George and Kawhi Leonard on the team


I legit spit out some coffee after carefully reading nickhx's thoughtful analysis, then immediately coming upon this reply.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#7 » by QRich3 » Sun Dec 8, 2019 11:16 am

Hehe yeah it’s too bad that a well thought post by nick was immediately derailed into a substanceless “fire the coach” mob that disregards those good initial points. I would love to see the angry crowd try to point out as carefully as nick did what they see wrong with the team, but I guess that’s not what angry people do.

Anyway, I’m also mildly worried that it’s taking a while to implement most sets and that guys are incredibly rusty, or outright looking injured like Kawhi. We’re looking like we’re starting training camp while other teams could go into the postseason right now and be ready for war. We get by and are able to blow out the Wizards or the Hawks cause we have a lot of talent, but even in games like those you can see we’re not running anything but very simple plays. And then you run into a great team that’s been playing together for over a year like the Bucks, and you get steamrolled cause that crap doesn’t fly with them.

Main grip I really have is running so many isos for Kawhi might build bad habits, and it’s overworking him when he’s clearly hurt. I do like the plays they’ve been running for George, they’re mostly simple pistol sets, but it’s getting him to his spots properly. I’ve yet to see the off ball stuff that originated off the Lou/Trez p’n’r last year, which should be devastating with Kawhi and George and another shooter surrounding it, and I want to see more stuff where they’re both used as off ball decoys like they did with Gallo and Tobi last year.

But I’m patient, and I’m cool with not forcing things in December. April is when we have to be peaking right, not now. And we’re doing ok record wise while we wait for that peak to come.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#8 » by Young Sterling » Sun Dec 8, 2019 10:07 pm

Our offense flows with stellar defense. The two areas we still need help with are point and center. I have an excellent solution for the Center: Andrew Bogut.

Something tells me Jerry's got his eye on him and would add him as a FA if need be. As a big, he plays such quality defense and is killing it in the NBL. I was more scared of him then Cousins or Looney during playoffs against the Raptors. Stopping guys like Lebron and Giannis doesn't just happen from athletcism or height. It takes some damn good defense and Bogut has great hands to pick the ball loose.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#9 » by SK21209 » Sun Dec 8, 2019 11:05 pm

I'm with OP; I think a lot of this gets solved in time and it isn't a case of Doc not being able to craft the proper offense. We should note, though, that Kawhi has always been a bit of an awkward fit in the synergetic offenses Pop and Nurse oversaw. The offense will probably never flow as well as the Bucks or Mavericks but it won't need to if we also, like Young Sterling mentioned, fuel some transition offense with our defense.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#10 » by NippySudz » Mon Dec 9, 2019 5:32 am

edit;delete
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#11 » by 50CalClips » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:26 pm

This is not a "team" yet... (sh%t, the defense is more an issue than the offesne)

We've got a few months to get everyone on the same page, for March and beyond.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#12 » by wco81 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:31 am

21-9, second seed in the West and you want to fire the coach? Or the team isn't playing well?

I know you guys have huge expectations after the big moves in the offseason.

Is it championship or bust? Will heads roll if it's anything less?

Because at a minimum, the Clippers should get to the WCF. Of course health matters a lot, Kawhi's in particular.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#13 » by SK21209 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:56 pm

The obvious hole in the roster is a play-making PG that pushes Beverly to the bunch, giving the bench unit a secondary ball-handler and better defensive presence. I do think the offense would improve naturally over the course of the season if we left the roster alone but there’s a ceiling to how good the starters can be offensively in the half court with Bev, Harkless and Zubac out there together.

I really want Elfrid Payton, he’s played well for the Knicks this year when healthy and is the exact type of player I mentioned above. Also shooting 37% from 3 this year. Problem is we’d probably need to include McGruder for salaries to work and I don’t know when he can be traded.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#14 » by QRich3 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:25 am

One thing that's been bothering me, and the Lakers game was a great example of it, is that so far this season, when the bench is on, everything works like a finely tuned machine. Even in days when Lou's not having it like last Wednesday, everything collapses around the Lou-Trez p'n'r and you have the ball moving fluidly from side to side, and after a few passes you're getting wide open corner shots for guys like Shamet and J-Myke, who you gotta love getting that shot.

But then Kawhi and George get back in and ball movement dies, everything tends to end on an iso or an iso + kickout, or a simple pick'n'roll. There's no fluidity, no ball movement looking for the perfect shot or nothing. And I don't think it's Kawhi and George's fault either, they have iso tendencies but they tend to make good reads and move the ball well when they're doubled, etc. it's just that everyone expects that to happen and stands around waiting for it. We barely get open corner threes or open layups like we do when the bench is in.

And it still works cause they're wonderful offensive players and their isos often end up in good shots even if they're just hogging the whole possession or kicking it out at the end. But it's building bad tendencies and capping the team's potential a little bit, I think.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#15 » by 50CalClips » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:57 pm

QRich3 wrote:One thing that's been bothering me, and the Lakers game was a great example of it, is that so far this season, when the bench is on, everything works like a finely tuned machine. Even in days when Lou's not having it like last Wednesday, everything collapses around the Lou-Trez p'n'r and you have the ball moving fluidly from side to side, and after a few passes you're getting wide open corner shots for guys like Shamet and J-Myke, who you gotta love getting that shot.

But then Kawhi and George get back in and ball movement dies, everything tends to end on an iso or an iso + kickout, or a simple pick'n'roll. There's no fluidity, no ball movement looking for the perfect shot or nothing. And I don't think it's Kawhi and George's fault either, they have iso tendencies but they tend to make good reads and move the ball well when they're doubled, etc. it's just that everyone expects that to happen and stands around waiting for it. We barely get open corner threes or open layups like we do when the bench is in.

And it still works cause they're wonderful offensive players and their isos often end up in good shots even if they're just hogging the whole possession or kicking it out at the end. But it's building bad tendencies and capping the team's potential a little bit, I think.


There should be CONSTANT 3-pt threats at all times... Shamet/Beverley, Kawhi/George, Patterson/JaMychal... if not one, then the other(s). THAT is what opens things up for Kawhi/George to operate.

Lou Will is the least efficient scorer on the team... he needs to look to PASS a whole lot more often.
Landry Shamet is the best most skilled sniper/3-pt threat... he needs to look to SHOOT a whole lot more often.

Lou Will averages 15.2 FGA's. Shamet averages 6.9 FGA's.
Split the difference... Shamet and Lou should be averaging 11 FG Attempts, each.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#16 » by esqtvd » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:40 pm

QRich3 wrote:One thing that's been bothering me, and the Lakers game was a great example of it, is that so far this season, when the bench is on, everything works like a finely tuned machine. Even in days when Lou's not having it like last Wednesday, everything collapses around the Lou-Trez p'n'r and you have the ball moving fluidly from side to side, and after a few passes you're getting wide open corner shots for guys like Shamet and J-Myke, who you gotta love getting that shot.

But then Kawhi and George get back in and ball movement dies, everything tends to end on an iso or an iso + kickout, or a simple pick'n'roll. There's no fluidity, no ball movement looking for the perfect shot or nothing. And I don't think it's Kawhi and George's fault either, they have iso tendencies but they tend to make good reads and move the ball well when they're doubled, etc. it's just that everyone expects that to happen and stands around waiting for it. We barely get open corner threes or open layups like we do when the bench is in.

And it still works cause they're wonderful offensive players and their isos often end up in good shots even if they're just hogging the whole possession or kicking it out at the end. But it's building bad tendencies and capping the team's potential a little bit, I think.



Beverley is a guy opponents leave open, Zubac has to be spoon-fed his points within 2 feet of the basket, and Harkless is a complete stiff offensively. Let's face facts. None of them is even a 10 ppg scorer. We'll have to see if Kawhi and PG can create something greater than the sum of its parts. Otherwise, it's either live with the isos or Shamet or J-Myke has to start.

So far, the master strategy is the same as last years': Play even with the other teams' starters, then get fat with our bench over theirs. After that, our crunchtime lineup of Kawhi, PG, Lou, Trezz and Bev has been up to the task so far.

The x-factor remains Shamet. Sophomore slump or a revelation like last year? And looming in the background is the possibility Father Time is catching up with Lou...
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#17 » by QRich3 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:36 am

esqtvd wrote:
QRich3 wrote:One thing that's been bothering me, and the Lakers game was a great example of it, is that so far this season, when the bench is on, everything works like a finely tuned machine. Even in days when Lou's not having it like last Wednesday, everything collapses around the Lou-Trez p'n'r and you have the ball moving fluidly from side to side, and after a few passes you're getting wide open corner shots for guys like Shamet and J-Myke, who you gotta love getting that shot.

But then Kawhi and George get back in and ball movement dies, everything tends to end on an iso or an iso + kickout, or a simple pick'n'roll. There's no fluidity, no ball movement looking for the perfect shot or nothing. And I don't think it's Kawhi and George's fault either, they have iso tendencies but they tend to make good reads and move the ball well when they're doubled, etc. it's just that everyone expects that to happen and stands around waiting for it. We barely get open corner threes or open layups like we do when the bench is in.

And it still works cause they're wonderful offensive players and their isos often end up in good shots even if they're just hogging the whole possession or kicking it out at the end. But it's building bad tendencies and capping the team's potential a little bit, I think.



Beverley is a guy opponents leave open, Zubac has to be spoon-fed his points within 2 feet of the basket, and Harkless is a complete stiff offensively. Let's face facts. None of them is even a 10 ppg scorer. We'll have to see if Kawhi and PG can create something greater than the sum of its parts. Otherwise, it's either live with the isos or Shamet or J-Myke has to start.

So far, the master strategy is the same as last years': Play even with the other teams' starters, then get fat with our bench over theirs. After that, our crunchtime lineup of Kawhi, PG, Lou, Trezz and Bev has been up to the task so far.

The x-factor remains Shamet. Sophomore slump or a revelation like last year? And looming in the background is the possibility Father Time is catching up with Lou...

Nah that's not what I'm saying, it's not about how good the rest of the starters are or how efficient the offense is currently, iso ball works and is efficient, but it builds bad habits and makes the offense more predictable and stangnant, and it doesn't keep people engaged. Shamet gets more and better shots when he plays with the bench than when he plays with the starters, and so does Harkless for instance.

Opponents do respect Bev's shot and close out hard on him, if they didn't, let him shoot open. Harkless is shooting 43% from the corner, if that shot's there for him, that's a good shot, much better than a Kawhi/George contested midrange. If they close out, Moe and Bev are good enough to keep the ball moving and find the open man, and if you have Zubac open under the basket, that's not spoonfeeding him, that's your offense finding a great shot. Just by putting the ball on Kawhi or George's hands, you're already creating an opening in the defense, if guys move more and better off ball when the defense collapses on them, and the ball moves around, you're using them better not just as scorers but also as decoys, and it opens the game for them as well. With the Lou-Trez pick'n'roll, it's already working like that, pretty much. Instead, what you have with the starters, is a lot of people standing around when the defense collapses on Kawhi, and him having to kick it out for a rushed shot or finding a shot himself. And again, it works a lot of the time, but I'm left with the feeling that there's a lot more potential to the offense than what's showing.

This is a problem we've been discussing since the start of the season, and I thought it was ok to work like that for starters, while guys are coming back and familiarizing with their new teammates and new roles. But it's nearly half the season and there hasn't been much progress on that front. And I'm left thinking that this already good offense could be so much better with few minor tweaks.
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#18 » by MartinToVaught » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:58 am

esqtvd wrote:Beverley is a guy opponents leave open, Zubac has to be spoon-fed his points within 2 feet of the basket, and Harkless is a complete stiff offensively.

Why are you making up blatant lies to discredit our players? Are you a Clippers fan or just a Doc fan? :noway:
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#19 » by esqtvd » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:49 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
esqtvd wrote:Beverley is a guy opponents leave open, Zubac has to be spoon-fed his points within 2 feet of the basket, and Harkless is a complete stiff offensively.

Why are you making up blatant lies to discredit our players? Are you a Clippers fan or just a Doc fan? :noway:


by all means let's see your arguments to the contrary

otherwise please stop trolling
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Re: The offense and what it's supposed to be 

Post#20 » by esqtvd » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:57 am

QRich3 wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
QRich3 wrote:One thing that's been bothering me, and the Lakers game was a great example of it, is that so far this season, when the bench is on, everything works like a finely tuned machine. Even in days when Lou's not having it like last Wednesday, everything collapses around the Lou-Trez p'n'r and you have the ball moving fluidly from side to side, and after a few passes you're getting wide open corner shots for guys like Shamet and J-Myke, who you gotta love getting that shot.

But then Kawhi and George get back in and ball movement dies, everything tends to end on an iso or an iso + kickout, or a simple pick'n'roll. There's no fluidity, no ball movement looking for the perfect shot or nothing. And I don't think it's Kawhi and George's fault either, they have iso tendencies but they tend to make good reads and move the ball well when they're doubled, etc. it's just that everyone expects that to happen and stands around waiting for it. We barely get open corner threes or open layups like we do when the bench is in.

And it still works cause they're wonderful offensive players and their isos often end up in good shots even if they're just hogging the whole possession or kicking it out at the end. But it's building bad tendencies and capping the team's potential a little bit, I think.


You want a ball-movemnt offense with two guys

Beverley is a guy opponents leave open, Zubac has to be spoon-fed his points within 2 feet of the basket, and Harkless is a complete stiff offensively. Let's face facts. None of them is even a 10 ppg scorer. We'll have to see if Kawhi and PG can create something greater than the sum of its parts. Otherwise, it's either live with the isos or Shamet or J-Myke has to start.

So far, the master strategy is the same as last years': Play even with the other teams' starters, then get fat with our bench over theirs. After that, our crunchtime lineup of Kawhi, PG, Lou, Trezz and Bev has been up to the task so far.

The x-factor remains Shamet. Sophomore slump or a revelation like last year? And looming in the background is the possibility Father Time is catching up with Lou...

Nah that's not what I'm saying, it's not about how good the rest of the starters are or how efficient the offense is currently, iso ball works and is efficient, but it builds bad habits and makes the offense more predictable and stangnant, and it doesn't keep people engaged. Shamet gets more and better shots when he plays with the bench than when he plays with the starters, and so does Harkless for instance.

Opponents do respect Bev's shot and close out hard on him, if they didn't, let him shoot open. Harkless is shooting 43% from the corner, if that shot's there for him, that's a good shot, much better than a Kawhi/George contested midrange. If they close out, Moe and Bev are good enough to keep the ball moving and find the open man, and if you have Zubac open under the basket, that's not spoonfeeding him, that's your offense finding a great shot. Just by putting the ball on Kawhi or George's hands, you're already creating an opening in the defense, if guys move more and better off ball when the defense collapses on them, and the ball moves around, you're using them better not just as scorers but also as decoys, and it opens the game for them as well. With the Lou-Trez pick'n'roll, it's already working like that, pretty much. Instead, what you have with the starters, is a lot of people standing around when the defense collapses on Kawhi, and him having to kick it out for a rushed shot or finding a shot himself. And again, it works a lot of the time, but I'm left with the feeling that there's a lot more potential to the offense than what's showing.

This is a problem we've been discussing since the start of the season, and I thought it was ok to work like that for starters, while guys are coming back and familiarizing with their new teammates and new roles. But it's nearly half the season and there hasn't been much progress on that front. And I'm left thinking that this already good offense could be so much better with few minor tweaks.



You want a ball-movement offense with two guys not known as passers, plus Beverley, who is only a spot-up shooter at best. These are sub-10 ppg guys no matter how you slice it. We might be able to gin up some offensive schemes but we're not starting with a full deck, is all.

With Shamet or J-Myke starting, we might change the deck a bit. Whether it's worth the hurt on defense, I don't know, but that's why Patterson keeps getting a look as well.
..............................................................................IGNORED: nobody really, though some folks make my eyes glaze over :lol:

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