esqtvd wrote:TheNewEra wrote:esqtvd wrote:
Well if you want to debate this out like adults, Mr. Era, that would be really cool and a welcome change. You know what I mean.
What I mean by "Planet Zubac" is those people who are so Doc-Deranged that they think Zubac is anywhere equal the player or force that Trezz is. Remember--until we got Marcus and now Noah, any additional minutes handed to Zubac would come from Trezz, and even now that Doc has stretched Zu's minutes out to around 20, that means Trezz is only playing 28.
I did look up Zu's first half stats and it only reinforces my point. His second-half stats suck--worst plus/minus on the Clippers--so the thoughtful inference is that his overall stats are due to great first halves.
And they are great first halves. Zu is in our top 5 in plus/minus. Great job for our placeholder starter. But our worst in the second half. Trezz is our 2nd best behind Kawhi in the 3rd.
Worry about Trezz's fatigue in the 4th quarter all you want. Our Achilles heel is much more Zubac in the 3rd quarter. He gets worse as the game goes on. Provably.
Why we should give him 4th quarter minutes is doubling down on mediocrity.
And that's why Doc doesn't give Zu 4th quarter minutes. Because he hasn't earned 2nd half minutes, let alone crunch time minutes. Totally backed by the stats.
Getting Trezz a blow in the 4th will have to come from Noah or the small ball unit. He's been a hero for us. One thing we agree on is that Trezz deserves a blow and not have to play 17 minutes in a row. But Zu is not the answer and Doc was right not to give him minutes he has not earned.
Frankly, my "eye test" has been wondering about Zu's gaudy overall stats vs what I saw, a lot of crap 3rd quarters, meaning his first halves have been great--also what my "eye test" was telling me. I only looked it up today, and yes, my "eye test" was borne out by the stats, which I've posted here.
Hey, I think Zubac is doing great for 22 years old, a starter for the next possible champion. His first year as a starter. Just had his best game as a Clipper and kicked D'Antoni and Morey's ass. Don't get me wrong about any of this.
Don’t even get how this was even a thing to be talked about in a Noah signing but ok.
If you don’t believe Zubac has contributed in his own way when rim protection numbers have come out and I’m sure you have seen them. Zubac’s importance to the team is he allows for guys like Harrell not to have to face bigger and more talented opposing bigs for a full game. You want to see Harrell get tossed around by larger player so be it but Zubac has been a major part of this title push and no one would say Harrell should be starting.
-No one has argued the overall minutes was a issue it was the 15-17 minutes stretches of minutes. If 22 minutes for Zu and 26 for Trez means that Trez can get a rest then so be it.
- So because Zubac 3rd quarter is his lowest but yet it’s better than Harrell’s for quarters one, two and four he shouldn’t play at all in the 4th?
-Your hatred for Zubac is next level because it doesn’t even add up when you try to use stats to discredit him. By YOUR own stat it shows the starting unit with Trez in the 4th quarter sees a major decline. It shows Harrell’s advantage only comes because he plays against bench units to start the 4th but comes down when both teams put the starters back in
-Doubling down on mediocrity ? Look how terrible the rest of the starters look like using your stat in the 4th quarter lol
- Based on your stats Harrell shouldn’t play at all in the first half
-And again how can you argue the stats when it shows Zubacs (+1.4) worse quarter in plus/minus IS STILL better than Harrell’s 4th quarter (+1.0)
There will never and I mean ever be a logical reason to play Harrell the consistent stretches of minutes that we do it’s poor coaching
I don't hate Zubac. Cut it out.
The only fact you present is that Trezz's +1.0 in the 4th is worse than Zubac's +1.4 in the 3rd. That's a valid argument, but not a definitive enough one to not allow for Doc's own "eye test" and lack of confidence in Zu at crunchtime. He is not being irrational and that's the criticism. The fact is that we've won almost every game using that strategy.
And I'm sure even Zubac's supporters are surprised to learn that his 2nd half stats show such a huge decline over his first half stats and that means his gaudy overall numbers are a bit suspect when it comes to earning 4th quarter minutes. It's also logical to conclude that he'd be even less effective in the 4th than he is in the 3rd, and that is clearly Doc's quite valid reasoning.
The argument using the stat is only one we can use we don’t have enough of a body of work to use anything else. His eye test should be the same numbers we see and anytime he uses “we needed Harrell’s scoring” it never adds up. His eye test should be able to notice that Harrell blows up from fatigue during these long stretches it’s not a opinion it’s a known fact. Whether the team can power through it which impacts both ends has been a concern all season.
Playing a player 15-17 minutes straight is pretty irrational in any stretch of the imagination. Even if you didn’t want to play Zu for whatever reason in which he did play last season then play Green.
Drop offs happen in games and the team tends to relax a bit when up big. Trying to use numbers like Zu is the only one dropping off is missing the point of the numbers YOU posted.
By your numbers :
1st quarter -Zubac +1.4/Harrell +1.1
2nd quarter- Zubac +1.7/Harrell-1.6
3rd quarter-Zubac +1.5/Harrell +3.1
4th quarter- zubac -2.0(4 games)/Harrell +1.0 (15 games)
There is no gaudy numbers it’s fairly consistent when in a consistent role like the first 3 quarters. You mention a drop off but what the hell is going from 3.1 to 1.0?
Would also like to see how the splits if possible of how the 4th quarter goes between vs bench units and vs starters. When the starters come back in for other teams is usually when the fatigue wall hits and overall games become a bit more of a struggle if not a blowout.
Looking at the other starters based on your stat shows their is more to the story than meets the eye
4th quarter
Kawhi Leonard (-1.2)
Paul George (0.4)
Marcus Morris (-3.0)
Patrick Beverly (0.1)
Think Harrell is obviously seeing a boost in his own numbers from playing against bench units to start the quarters. Also seeing bump from also playing in the 4th quarter even if it’s a blowout because PG and Kawhi don’t even have the entire 15 games played in the 4th quarter sample size.
