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OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21)

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OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#1 » by 50CalClips » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:11 pm

Discuss YOUR LIST of the 75 greatest players in NBA history.

The "50 Greatest" was announced at the NBA's 50th Anniversary (after the completion of the 1995-96 season). There are two more seasons to go til the 75th Anniversary (at the completion of 2020-21).

So to celebrate the 75th Annie, lets name the 75 Greatest.

***CRITERIA***

    - Prioritize their play on the NBA court, RATHER THAN contribution off-the-court, or in College, or in International play, or as a Coach, etc.

    - Prioritize fulfilled accomplishment to date, RATHER THAN speculating on future potential, handicapping injury issues, etc.

    - Prioritize Individual greatness, RATHER THAN their Team accomplishments

    - Balance-out Longevity and Prime/Peak, RATHER THAN focusing on one over the other (because both matter)

    - Specify your "Definitive 73" (only 73 seasons, to date)
    - Then your "Future 2" (speculate next 2 seasons to complete 75)
    - And your "Next 5" (to acknowledge "borderline" players and/or "potential greats," younger players with many years left to prove (e.g. Embiid, Jokic, Luka))
    - Bonus, your "ABA 10" greatest players, esp if not included on your "NBA list"

***Suggestions for the Criteria, what should be included?***
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#2 » by esqtvd » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:18 pm

the real GOAT

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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#3 » by 50CalClips » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:21 pm

The Big Debates:
(... that I anticipate)

- Have Kawhi, Giannis done enough so far to date? The supposition being: If they never played another game would they belong on your 75 Greatest List?

- Should the ABA be included in the consideration?

- Weighing Individual greatness vs Team accomplishment (e.g, over-emphasis on Championships)

- The players that wouldn't/don't belong on the official "NBA's 50 Greatest" list from 1996 (e.g. Bill Walton)
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#4 » by 50CalClips » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:22 pm

esqtvd wrote:the real GOAT

[youtube]Wilt[youtube]


74 more to list...
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#5 » by 50CalClips » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:38 pm

For Reference:

MVP Award Winners...
Player - League - Count
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - NBA - 6
Michael Jordan - NBA - 5
Bill Russell - NBA - 5
Wilt Chamberlain - NBA - 4
LeBron James - NBA - 4
Larry Bird - NBA - 3
Julius Erving - ABA - 3
Magic Johnson - NBA - 3
Moses Malone - NBA - 3
Stephen Curry - NBA - 2
Mel Daniels - ABA - 2
Tim Duncan - NBA - 2
Karl Malone - NBA - 2
Steve Nash - NBA - 2
Bob Pettit - NBA - 2
Giannis Antetokounmpo - NBA - 1
Charles Barkley - NBA - 1
Kobe Bryant - NBA - 1
Bob Cousy - NBA - 1
Dave Cowens - NBA - 1
Billy Cunningham - ABA - 1
Kevin Durant - NBA - 1
Julius Erving - NBA - 1
Kevin Garnett - NBA - 1
Artis Gilmore - ABA -
James Harden - NBA - 1
Connie Hawkins - ABA - 1
Spencer Haywood - ABA - 1
Allen Iverson - NBA - 1
Bob McAdoo - NBA - 1
George McGinnis - ABA - 1
Dirk Nowitzki - NBA - 1
Shaquille O'Neal - NBA - 1
Hakeem Olajuwon - NBA - 1
Willis Reed - NBA - 1
Oscar Robertson - NBA - 1
David Robinson - NBA - 1
Derrick Rose - NBA - 1
Wes Unseld - NBA - 1
Bill Walton - NBA - 1
Russell Westbrook - NBA - 1


Defensive POY Award Winners (since 1982-83 season)...
Player - League - Count
Dikembe Mutombo - NBA - 4
Ben Wallace - NBA - 4
Dwight Howard - NBA - 3
Mark Eaton - NBA - 2
Rudy Gobert - NBA - 2
Kawhi Leonard - NBA - 2
Sidney Moncrief - NBA - 2
Alonzo Mourning - NBA - 2
Hakeem Olajuwon - NBA - 2
Dennis Rodman - NBA - 2
Marcus Camby - NBA - 1
Tyson Chandler - NBA - 1
Michael Cooper - NBA - 1
Kevin Garnett - NBA - 1
Marc Gasol - NBA - 1
Draymond Green - NBA - 1
Michael Jordan - NBA - 1
Joakim Noah - NBA - 1
Gary Payton - NBA - 1
Alvin Robertson - NBA - 1
David Robinson - NBA - 1
Metta World Peace - NBA - 1
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#6 » by esqtvd » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:31 pm

50CalClips wrote:
esqtvd wrote:the real GOAT

Image


74 more to list...



Well, I wanted to get Wilt in at the top because he's overlooked because of recency bias and the case for him is strong :wink:

I go Wilt, MJ, Bron, Magic and maybe Durant, depending on the rest of his career, otherwise Kareem



As for the rest, I like this list except I would have Bill Russell and Steph Curry bubbling near the top 15, as well as Elgin Baylor, who somehow slipped their minds completely!!!

https://www.lineups.com/articles/top-50-nba-players-all-time/

Contents
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Kevin Durant
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaquille O’Neal
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Jerry West
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone

As per above, Bill Russell, Steph and Elgin slot in here somewheres


the next group is a cut above the next

16. Julius Erving
17. Kevin Garnett
18. Elvin Hayes
19. Charles Barkley
20. Walt Frazier
21. Dirk Nowitzki
22. John Havlicek
23. Scottie Pippen
24. Dwyane Wade
25. George Gervin
26. Rick Barry
27. David Robinson
28. Isiah Thomas
29. John Stockton
30. Stephen Curry
31. Vince Carter

then the great-but-not-supergreats

32. Alex English
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Patrick Ewing
35. Bill Russell
36. Willis Reed
37. Steve Nash
38. Jason Kidd
39. Allen Iverson
40. Bob Cousy
41. George Mikan
42. Paul Pierce
43. Gary Payton
44. Kevin McHale
45. Bob Pettit
46. Ray Allen
47. Reggie Miller
48. Dominique Wilkins
49. Kawhi Leonard
50. Chris Paul


Elgin would make 51.

as for victims of recency bias--and I wouldn't know where to slot them--

52. Dolph Schayes
53. Paul Arizin
54. Hal Greer
55. Bob Lanier
56. Lenny Wilkins
57. Artis Gilmore

best of the rest


58. Robert Parish
59. Dennis Rodman
60. Adrian Dantley

on the bubble I would put

61. Tony Parker


of present day players [careers not complete yet but probably done enough already]

62. Kyrie*
63. Westbrook
64. Harden
65. Giannis
66. Anthony Davis
67. Dame Lillard

the best of the old timers:


68. Walt Bellamy
69. Dave DeBusschere
70. Nate Archibald
71. Pete Maravich

and I'll sneak in 72. Pau Gasol [top 40 scorer] and give #73 to Carmelo

too soon to tell, the "Future 2" and "Next 5" in no particular order :

Siakam
Embiid
Simmons
Butler
Donovan Mitchell
Booker
Joker

and the future of the futures, who are already scary good:

Doncic
Trae Young
Zion

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*EDIT: Kyrie in here for Kawhi who was already listed at #49
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#7 » by 50CalClips » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:16 am

esqtvd wrote:Well, I wanted to get Wilt in at the top because he's overlooked because of recency bias and the case for him is strong :wink: I go Wilt, MJ, Bron, Magic and maybe Durant, depending on the rest of his career, otherwise Kareem. As for the rest, I like this list except I would have Bill Russell and Steph Curry bubbling near the top 15, as well as Elgin Baylor, who somehow slipped their minds completely!!!

https://www.lineups.com/articles/top-50-nba-players-all-time/

Contents
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Kevin Durant
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaquille O’Neal
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Jerry West
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
...


Just a bit of commentary on this list...

Paul Arizin - First time I've ever come across the name Paul Arizin, that I can recall, tbh. I see that he's a Hall of Famer, though, so no issue with the pick per se.

Tony Parker - See the criteria: Prioritize Individual greatness over Team accomplishments. And I might argue that Ginobli had more to do with the Spurs playoff success, to boot (adv stats, efficiency, defense). 4xAll-NBA, 6xAll-Star, never a serious MVP candidate (best, 5th in voting).

Carmelo Anthony - Can't deny that he meets most of the conventional standers, but something about him... I just wouldn't want him on my team, ever, not even for free.
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#8 » by esqtvd » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:27 am

50CalClips wrote:
esqtvd wrote:Well, I wanted to get Wilt in at the top because he's overlooked because of recency bias and the case for him is strong :wink: I go Wilt, MJ, Bron, Magic and maybe Durant, depending on the rest of his career, otherwise Kareem. As for the rest, I like this list except I would have Bill Russell and Steph Curry bubbling near the top 15, as well as Elgin Baylor, who somehow slipped their minds completely!!!

https://www.lineups.com/articles/top-50-nba-players-all-time/

Contents
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Kevin Durant
7. Tim Duncan
8. Larry Bird
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaquille O’Neal
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Jerry West
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
...


Just a bit of commentary on this list...

Paul Arizin - First time I've ever come across the name Paul Arizin, that I can recall, tbh. I see that he's a Hall of Famer, though, so no issue with the pick per se.

Tony Parker - See the criteria: Prioritize Individual greatness over Team accomplishments. And I might argue that Ginobli had more to do with the Spurs playoff success, to boot (adv stats, efficiency, defense). 4xAll-NBA, 6xAll-Star, never a serious MVP candidate (best, 5th in voting).

Carmelo Anthony - Can't deny that he meets most of the conventional standers, but something about him... I just wouldn't want him on my team, ever, not even for free.



I think PGs and titles are related, and therefore relevant. Your mileage may reasonably vary, and indeed I flagged Tony Parker as "on the bubble." Maybe neither he nor Manu will make it, maybe both.

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/nba-basketball-hall-of-fame-tracy-mcgrady-active-players-locks-stephen-curry-russell-westbrook-lebron-james-040117


I had to throw Carmelo in and I did...last. I certainly agree with you, and isn't it interesting that although Pau Gasol is a marginal pick, any sane coach or GM would rather have him than Carmelo!


The above article props Tracy McGrady, whom I overlooked and I'm sure there's a few like DeBusschere and Archibald you could pop him in for.
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#9 » by 50CalClips » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:40 am

These late-twenties vets with plenty of "prime" years left are a jumble right now...

Kyrie, George, Lillard, Klay, Butler (30yr*), Draymond (tricky fit)
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#10 » by esqtvd » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:52 am

50CalClips wrote:These late-twenties vets with plenty of "prime" years left are a jumble right now...

Kyrie, George, Lillard, Klay, Butler (30yr*), Draymond (tricky fit)


I had Lillard as a definite
Butler as a maybe

Klay gives you 20 but not a lot else
Draymond's 9 ppg and 7 rpg is way below the cut--Nate Thurmond averaged 15 and 15 and missed my cut


PG I don't see but though I'm not a Kyrie man, yes, he's a definite--I didn't realize he already has almost 12000 points at age 27, wow

I definitely missed Kyrie
I don't know how high I would put him though
you can put him in for DeBusschere
I'd still rather have Dame

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LATE ADD: I had listed Kawhi twice so Kyrie went in at #62
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#11 » by Method28 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:29 am

These lists are sleeping on Chris Mullin

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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#12 » by Quake Griffin » Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:08 pm

1. LeBron
2-75. Some guys.
Clever reactions to aggressive situations

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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#13 » by esqtvd » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:29 pm

Method28 wrote:These lists are sleeping on Chris Mullin



Yeah, there are probably another 20-30 who have a claim to the last 20 or so spots. I considered Mullin and Mitch Richmond. Neither really jump out in other areas but 17K and 20K points in a career [respectively] certainly gets you a mention. Tracy McGrady had 18000 points. Grant Hill had 17K. And Klay Thompson will probably turn out right up there with them. Paul George has 13000 before age 30.

I'd put them all in the tier somewhere below the top 50-60. It's hard to call them "greats."
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#14 » by clipperlover » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:42 pm

Vince Carter 31? Is that a joke. In his prime, he never got better than #10 in MVP voting. He made one conference championship during his prime years. He made All-NBA 2 times( 3rd team and 2nd team). Never made an All-NBA team after 2001. The guy scored a bunch points and for the majority of his NBA career, he was just a stat monger.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartevi01.html
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#15 » by esqtvd » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:09 pm

clipperlover wrote:Vince Carter 31? Is that a joke. In his prime, he never got better than #10 in MVP voting. He made one conference championship during his prime years. He made All-NBA 2 times( 3rd team and 2nd team). Never made an All-NBA team after 2001. The guy scored a bunch points and for the majority of his NBA career, he was just a stat monger.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartevi01.html



Even if you ignore everything Carter did after age 32, you still have 18,000 points, a 10-time all-star in 12 seasons, averaging 23.5 ppg, 5 rebs and 4 assists. Add in another 12 seasons for a total of 25000 points, and he's 19th on the all-time list.

But I can definitely see knocking him back into the next group of non-elites with guys like Alex English and Kevin McHale. I didn't really re-sort that list slot-by-slot but you're right that he's more like those guys than like Pippen, Barkley, and Stockton.
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Re: OT: The NBA's 75 Greatest Players Discussion (75th Annie = 2020-21) 

Post#16 » by Young Sterling » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:28 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:1. LeBron
2-75. Some guys.


1. MJ; 2. Kareem; 3-73. Some guys; 74. Bronny Jr; 75: LeStatpadBrick

There, I fixed it for ya. JK, Lebron is awesome, just not number 1 lol

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