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Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:15 am
by Clippersfan2020
His metrics show him as a borderline all star impact guy for like 4-5 years at least. I remembered him as a guy where he put up good stat lines, but didn't exactly have matching impact. The age of metrics and statistics seems to have been kind to Maximus. He was excellent at getting to the line, pretty efficient from most places on the floor, and he rebounded pretty well. I think he has a case to be a top 10 all time Clipper.

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:57 pm
by esqtvd
Minutes Played
1. Randy Smith 24393
2. DeAndre Jordan 21045
3. Blake Griffin 17706
4. Elton Brand 17595
5. Corey Maggette 15780
6. Loy Vaught 15671
7. Chris Kaman 14661
8. Chris Paul 13885
9. Ken Norman 13584
10. Bob McAdoo* 13381

Points
1. Randy Smith 12735
2. Blake Griffin 10863
3. Bob McAdoo* 9434
4. Elton Brand 9336
5. Corey Maggette 8835
6. Chris Paul 7674
7. Danny Manning 7120
8. DeAndre Jordan 7078
9. Loy Vaught 6614
10. Ken Norman 6432


Free Throws
1. Corey Maggette 3122
2. Blake Griffin 2397
3. Randy Smith 2304
4. Elton Brand 2236
5. Bob McAdoo* 2040
6. Chris Paul 1656
7. Danny Manning 1413
8. DeAndre Jordan 1357
9. Charles Smith 1335
10. Benoit Benjamin 1272


Points Per Game
1. World B. Free 29.4
2. Bob McAdoo* 28.2
3. Terry Cummings 23.3
4. Blake Griffin 21.6
5. Lou Williams 20.6
6. Elton Brand 20.3
7. Ron Harper 19.3
8. Danny Manning 19.1
9. Chris Paul 18.8
10. Charles Smith 18.4

Maggette: 17.3

Win Shares
1. Chris Paul 78.2
2. DeAndre Jordan 76.3
3. Elton Brand 68.3
4. Blake Griffin 65.4
5. Bob McAdoo* 50.9
6. Randy Smith 50.0
7. Corey Maggette 45.8
8. Loy Vaught 34.1
9. Danny Manning 31.0
10. Swen Nater 28.9

Value Over Replacement Player
1. Chris Paul 36.8
2. Elton Brand 27.9
3. Blake Griffin 26.4
4. DeAndre Jordan 17.2
5. Bob McAdoo* 17.2
6. Randy Smith 13.5
7. Danny Manning 12.4
8. Corey Maggette 12.4
9. Ron Harper 10.1
10. Lamar Odom 8.2

Player Efficiency Rating
1. Chris Paul 26.3
2. Montrezl Harrell 23.6
3. Elton Brand 23.4
4. Bob McAdoo* 22.8
5. Blake Griffin 22.6
6. World B. Free 22.4
7. Terry Cummings 21.2
8. Lou Williams 19.7
9. Freeman Williams 18.6
10. Corey Maggette 18.6

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Sat May 2, 2020 3:35 pm
by Shaliq
Clippersfan2020 wrote:His metrics show him as a borderline all star impact guy for like 4-5 years at least. I remembered him as a guy where he put up good stat lines, but didn't exactly have matching impact. The age of metrics and statistics seems to have been kind to Maximus. He was excellent at getting to the line, pretty efficient from most places on the floor, and he rebounded pretty well. I think he has a case to be a top 10 all time Clipper.

Hey welcome to the board!!
Yes, I agree! CM50 belongs in the LAC All-Time Top 10!!!

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Sun May 3, 2020 6:48 am
by Roscoe Sheed
Maggette was a good player. His main weakness was his inconsistent perimeter shot

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Sun May 3, 2020 1:57 pm
by TrueLAfan
^^Yup. Corey was a good player and largely a good guy with Clippers. He was more or less a mid-level NBA starter at SF, which is great or awful depending on your perspective. I think metrics overstate his value by a small to moderate amount. Problem is, Corey was a ball stopper. He got his efficiency pretty much 100% from those crazy, bulldozing drives to the hoop. Among players who played 200 games and 5000 minutes between 2003-8, here’s the ranking of FTA per 36

Shaquille O’Neal
Corey Maggette
Dwyane Wade
Kobe Bryant

Which looks great on paper. But Corey’s shooting and volume scoring were (much) lower than the other guys there, and he wasn’t nearly as good of a distributor as the other backcourt players. That meant he got his high efficiency by *not* spreading the court or passing the ball. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t good—he was a good, not great shooter (but very inconsistent, as Roscoe Sheed said), and semi-adequate defender. That adds up to a decent NBA starter. But, like I said, the value shown in advanced stats overstates things to some degree. He was a nice player.

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Tue May 5, 2020 1:31 am
by esqtvd
big points for Clipper longevity

not many stuck around long


Games
1. DeAndre Jordan 750
2. Randy Smith 715
3. Eric Piatkowski 616
4. Loy Vaught 558
5. Corey Maggette 512
6. Blake Griffin 504
7. Chris Kaman 493
8. Elton Brand 459
9. Gary Grant 446
10. Ken Norman 439

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Tue May 5, 2020 10:45 am
by Shaliq
Very interesting stat, TrueLAfan. Thanks for bringing it up.

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Thu May 7, 2020 6:14 am
by Roscoe Sheed
I’ve been very impressed by the shape Corey has kept himself in since retiring- that man is made of granite still!

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 4:43 am
by clipsfever
I'm sure his innate ability to draw fouls (and make the FTs) probably raises his efficiency stats significantly. Probably was less difficult to gameplan for or defend in crunchtime (when the whistled get swallowed) than some with similar on-paper numbers though.

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Thu May 14, 2020 5:15 pm
by Forte IV
Personally he's my all time favorite Clipper

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:37 pm
by Shaliq
Forte IV wrote:Personally he's my all time favorite Clipper

Same here, I'm so thankful to have met him twice after Clipper games (2016 in 2019) and even set my Twitter profile pic to my photo with him:

https://twitter.com/Clipperholic114/photo

Btw, props to the topic-starter, but also.... he hasn't really made any other posts since he posted this...

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Sun May 17, 2020 5:09 am
by Chronz
What stats are we talking about here? IIRC, the impact stats grade him as more of a net neutral guy

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 2:24 pm
by TrueLAfan
I think the key to whatever metric you’re using with Corey is the time period because, regardless of how you look at the numbers, he’s good from about 2003-2010. That’s a nice, long peak period (8 seasons); Corey ranks 66th out of 180 players who played 10000 minutes in that time period in VORP and 72nd in BPM. If you take his real peak (2004-8), he rates a little higher, but not as much as you might think. PER rates him markedly higher, but it’s overkeyed to efficiency IMO. Anyway, he’s grades out as an above average player in most every way, which makes him, more or less, an average to very slightly above average NBA starter. It may not sound like much to be the 12th best starting SF in the NBA, but it’s actually a pretty big deal. Corey was a good player.

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:47 pm
by esqtvd
TrueLAfan wrote:I think the key to whatever metric you’re using with Corey is the time period because, regardless of how you look at the numbers, he’s good from about 2003-2010. That’s a nice, long peak period (8 seasons); Corey ranks 66th out of 180 players who played 10000 minutes in that time period in VORP and 72nd in BPM. If you take his real peak (2004-8), he rates a little higher, but not as much as you might think. PER rates him markedly higher, but it’s overkeyed to efficiency IMO. Anyway, he’s grades out as an above average player in most every way, which makes him, more or less, an average to very slightly above average NBA starter. It may not sound like much to be the 12th best starting SF in the NBA, but it’s actually a pretty big deal. Corey was a good player.



This all sounds about right. Corey was consistent--played 60 or more games 7 of his 8 seasons as a Clipper. A poor man's Tobias Harris. Solid contributors offensively, average defensively; neither could really carry a team.

as Clippers:

CM--17.3/5.2/2.4
TH--21.2/7.5/3.0

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:22 am
by Shaliq
esqtvd wrote:
TrueLAfan wrote:I think the key to whatever metric you’re using with Corey is the time period because, regardless of how you look at the numbers, he’s good from about 2003-2010. That’s a nice, long peak period (8 seasons); Corey ranks 66th out of 180 players who played 10000 minutes in that time period in VORP and 72nd in BPM. If you take his real peak (2004-8), he rates a little higher, but not as much as you might think. PER rates him markedly higher, but it’s overkeyed to efficiency IMO. Anyway, he’s grades out as an above average player in most every way, which makes him, more or less, an average to very slightly above average NBA starter. It may not sound like much to be the 12th best starting SF in the NBA, but it’s actually a pretty big deal. Corey was a good player.



This all sounds about right. Corey was consistent--played 60 or more games 7 of his 8 seasons as a Clipper. A poor man's Tobias Harris. Solid contributors offensively, average defensively; neither could really carry a team.

as Clippers:

CM--17.3/5.2/2.4
TH--21.2/7.5/3.0

Interesting comparison. Never thought of comparing Corey to Tobias. Toby really stands out as the better player....

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:46 am
by esqtvd
Shaliq wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
TrueLAfan wrote:I think the key to whatever metric you’re using with Corey is the time period because, regardless of how you look at the numbers, he’s good from about 2003-2010. That’s a nice, long peak period (8 seasons); Corey ranks 66th out of 180 players who played 10000 minutes in that time period in VORP and 72nd in BPM. If you take his real peak (2004-8), he rates a little higher, but not as much as you might think. PER rates him markedly higher, but it’s overkeyed to efficiency IMO. Anyway, he’s grades out as an above average player in most every way, which makes him, more or less, an average to very slightly above average NBA starter. It may not sound like much to be the 12th best starting SF in the NBA, but it’s actually a pretty big deal. Corey was a good player.



This all sounds about right. Corey was consistent--played 60 or more games 7 of his 8 seasons as a Clipper. A poor man's Tobias Harris. Solid contributors offensively, average defensively; neither could really carry a team.

as Clippers:

CM--17.3/5.2/2.4
TH--21.2/7.5/3.0

Interesting comparison. Never thought of comparing Corey to Tobias. Toby really stands out as the better player....



Better across the board, yes, but not that much better, that's the point. Especially when it counts. That's why we let Tobias go. I've been watching him with the Sixers and he's just kind of...there.

For whatever reason I got Toby's Clipper stats wrong:

as Clippers:

CM--17.3/5.2/2.4
TH--20.3/7.2/2.9 [Clippers]
TH--19.0/7.3/3.1 [76ers]

Harris's 3-point shooting is also down to 35% as a Sixer, much closer to Cory's 33% as a Clipper. So yes, Toby's better, especially in rebounding, but they're still more or less in the same neighborhood. Toby's a lot more expensive [near-max], so I think calling Corey a "poor man's Tobias" is fair to both of them.

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:26 pm
by madmaxmedia
Yeah perhaps, but I guess 'Decent Porn' wouldn't be nearly as good a nickname...

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:08 pm
by Sofia
madmaxmedia wrote:Yeah perhaps, but I guess 'Decent Porn' wouldn't be nearly as good a nickname...

Sounds better than ‘tolerable porn’

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:12 pm
by Sofia
Some of those numbers are depressing. Only 6 guys averaged over 20ppg for us.

After you convert those win shares to WS/game, EB flies up that list.

Re: Was Corey Maggette a lot better than we realized at the time?

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:31 pm
by madmaxmedia
What really held him back was BBIQ IMO. He was good at a lot of basketball skills, if he had better BBIQ to go with it he would have helped his teams more and been a lot better regarded nowadays.