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How is Frank any better than GM Doc?

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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#21 » by og15 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:46 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:He's the president of basketball operations - and only because of Doc, not because of any amazing prior track record he had as an executive. As far as I'm concerned, both he and Lue are part of the same Doc culture that hasn't won anything here and likely never will.

So more of a guilt by association.

My issue is that this doesn’t really follow with the statement “He has given away nearly all of our draft picks and assets and wildly overspent to both construct and prop up a team that simply isn't good enough” as if he’s a one man front office. He isn’t even the GM, Winger is. Does Frank get blame only or does he also get credit when we like the moves? If there’s a consistency, then I’ll accept it, but if it is a Frank is guilty by association to Doc, all the bad decisions are his fault and all the good ones are other people, well...you know the problem that is evident there.

Frank is the one who won Executive of the Year for the Kawhi signing, so if he's going to get all the credit for that, then it's only fair for him to also get most of the blame for the long list of poor decisions that have hurt the team's chances of actually winning anything with Kawhi.

Certainly, but if we're not talking about the ambiguous other people or the media, but specific individuals.

So, you yourself, unless you were equally crediting him for allthe positives, how does it make sense to then blame him for any and every negative? It would be inconsistent.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#22 » by TheNewEra » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:09 pm

Our scouting team sucks
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#23 » by Quake Griffin » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:38 pm

TheNewEra wrote:Our scouting team sucks

Damn.

Why you say that?
Who put the scouting team together?
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#24 » by MartinToVaught » Wed Jan 6, 2021 5:07 am

It sure is interesting how Doc, Frank and Lue all share the same love of mediocre guards who are terrible defensively. No competent front office would ever have Lou, Reggie and Kennard all on the same team and no competent coach would ever play them all in lineups together on a regular basis. And we wonder why we constantly have to witness career performances from the Patty Mills, JJ Bareas and Shake Miltons of the league.

Speaking of Kennard - I'm baffled by the decision to give him so much money before he played a single minute for us. He's kind of sucked so far if we're being honest. Not sure what the rush was to avoid his restricted free agency instead of taking the season to evaluate his fit with the team. Right now, it looks like a desperation move along the lines of the egregious contracts that GM Doc gave to Jamal and Austin.

The Clippers screwed up by only firing Doc and not also firing all the people Doc brought into the organization. We are going to have the exact same results with Frank and Lue that we had with Doc because neither the culture nor the approach to building a team have actually changed.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#25 » by og15 » Wed Jan 6, 2021 6:31 am

MartinToVaught wrote:It sure is interesting how Doc, Frank and Lue all share the same love of mediocre guards who are terrible defensively. No competent front office would ever have Lou, Reggie and Kennard all on the same team and no competent coach would ever play them all in lineups together on a regular basis. And we wonder why we constantly have to witness career performances from the Patty Mills, JJ Bareas and Shake Miltons of the league.

Speaking of Kennard - I'm baffled by the decision to give him so much money before he played a single minute for us. He's kind of sucked so far if we're being honest. Not sure what the rush was to avoid his restricted free agency instead of taking the season to evaluate his fit with the team. Right now, it looks like a desperation move along the lines of the egregious contracts that GM Doc gave to Jamal and Austin.

The Clippers screwed up by only firing Doc and not also firing all the people Doc brought into the organization. We are going to have the exact same results with Frank and Lue that we had with Doc because neither the culture nor the approach to building a team have actually changed.
I like baselines to make sure the standard of critique has merit. I mentioned this in the game thread, but rotations and even roster build aren't rightly judged based on the roster without two of it's top 6 players and two of the better defenders on the team.

A healthy rotation doesn't have Jackson on it and doesn't have the three guard lineup needing to play. It would be nice if Kennard was also a good defender, even just like Joe Ingles level, definitely, but he's also been off basketball for some time.

I'd say the exercise and the baseline challenge would be to look at other rosters, take out one of their two best players and then one of their top rotation guys that is a solid defender and then analyze them and what rotations they would have to play from that position. If other teams are consistently in a better position than the Clippers, then it is a problem, if not, then it is simply just the outcome of, well, having one of your best players and defenders and another top rotation player and defender out.

So for example:
Lakers minus Davis and KCP
Denver minus Murry and Millsap
Bucks minus Middleton and Lopez
Raptors minus Siakam and Anunoby?
etc..
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#26 » by og15 » Wed Jan 6, 2021 6:40 am

Maybe the team can try and trade to get Harkless back ;). He would be a nice addition to the bench
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#27 » by madmaxmedia » Fri Jan 8, 2021 9:16 pm

og15 wrote:Maybe the team can try and trade to get Harkless back ;). He would be a nice addition to the bench


He seemed like a rich man's Wesley Johnson to me- athletic wing guy (if not same position) without standout skills, but Harkless was a much better glue guy. And he got us a 1st round pick!
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#28 » by nickhx2 » Fri Jan 8, 2021 11:16 pm

gosh, harkless would be awesome
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#29 » by apet8945 » Sat Jan 9, 2021 12:03 am

Yeah I'm not a fan of the Reggie-Lou-Kennard lineup either. And we seemingly never have a full roster so we always go to that lineup. I guess Ty Lue could stagger the lineups a bit better to prevent all three of them being on the floor at the same time. Playing Patterson instead is definitely not the answer, and Mann hasn't exactly stepped up.

Trading one of those three might be the way to go, and Lou Williams probably nets us the highest return. I'm thinking a straight swap for a player that fits the second unit better and give the second unit keys to Kennard at this point (we paid him for a reason I guess).

Kyle Anderson - 2 years - 9.5 million (Memphis is probably going nowhere with all these injuries, they might take an expiring)
George Hill - 2 years - 9.6 million (Don't see OKC doing anything special this year, so they might want the expiring)
Doug McDermott - 1 year - 7.3 million (Don't know if the Pacers would want Lou's skillset over McDermott's)
Mo Harkless - 1 year - 3.6 million (Not sure how money would work, but I can see Miami wanting Lou)
Al Aminu - 2 years - 9.73 million (Does this guy even play anymore?)

Avery Bradley?
James Ennis III?
Josh Hart?

Who am I missing?
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#30 » by MartinToVaught » Sat Jan 9, 2021 5:31 am

Frank has officially built the worst bench in the league, just like GM Doc did in the Lob City days. They can't score, they can't defend, they blow 20+ point leads seemingly every game. He gave $64 million to one of the most timid players in the league before he played a single game for us.

I'll be shocked if we even win a series come playoff time unless major roster changes are made, and even then, I don't trust this front office to actually fix the issues.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#31 » by og15 » Sat Jan 9, 2021 5:47 am

Bench is not perfect, not expected to be, but they need an identity, sure.

It's hard to fully judge because Morris has been back for two games. Judging now with one game including a 2 point, 1/7 FG night from Morris would be premature. Looking at their pieces, they have a decent enough balance for a bench unit of shooting, scoring and even decent enough defense with Zubac as the anchor, not to mention Lue likes to stagger PG with them for some minutes, which actually makes a very balanced 5 man unit. So knee jerk being fun and all, I'm personally going to chill on that for now.

I would still like a decent sized additional defensive wing option alongside them though, just to add another dimension, but one rarely gets everything they want on a team.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#32 » by clips4ever » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:37 am

MartinToVaught wrote:Frank has officially built the worst bench in the league, just like GM Doc did in the Lob City days. They can't score, they can't defend, they blow 20+ point leads seemingly every game. He gave $64 million to one of the most timid players in the league before he played a single game for us.

I'll be shocked if we even win a series come playoff time unless major roster changes are made, and even then, I don't trust this front office to actually fix the issues.

Wtf is up with you? You’d be SHOCKED if we win a playoff series? What the hell are you talking about? All of this after one loss? You need to relax. If you don’t think this FO (Frank isn’t even the GM, Michael Winger is- I’d expect someone who’s complaining so much ab the “GM” to at least know who the GM actually is) is a thousand times better than when Doc was GM then you’re out of your mind. They hit it out of the park with the Ibaka and Batum signings. Those are two legit top five signings from this past summer. Kennard is 100% an upgrade from Shamet (Shamet is shooting 28% from 3 this year and is seemingly ab to be out of the Nets’ rotation). The only thing you could complain about is the Kennard extension. The eight man rotation is one of the best in the NBA. The reason the bench struggles is bc teams don’t play eight man rotations during regular season so we have to rely on end of bench talents. But the team overall is better than last year’s, they did a great job hiring Ty Lue he’s been great so far, and they had two of the best signings of this past free agency cycle. Idk wtf you are complaining all over the place for
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#33 » by NickP » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:24 pm

clips4ever wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Frank has officially built the worst bench in the league, just like GM Doc did in the Lob City days. They can't score, they can't defend, they blow 20+ point leads seemingly every game. He gave $64 million to one of the most timid players in the league before he played a single game for us.

I'll be shocked if we even win a series come playoff time unless major roster changes are made, and even then, I don't trust this front office to actually fix the issues.

Wtf is up with you? You’d be SHOCKED if we win a playoff series? What the hell are you talking about? All of this after one loss? You need to relax. If you don’t think this FO (Frank isn’t even the GM, Michael Winger is- I’d expect someone who’s complaining so much ab the “GM” to at least know who the GM actually is) is a thousand times better than when Doc was GM then you’re out of your mind. They hit it out of the park with the Ibaka and Batum signings. Those are two legit top five signings from this past summer. Kennard is 100% an upgrade from Shamet (Shamet is shooting 28% from 3 this year and is seemingly ab to be out of the Nets’ rotation). The only thing you could complain about is the Kennard extension. The eight man rotation is one of the best in the NBA. The reason the bench struggles is bc teams don’t play eight man rotations during regular season so we have to rely on end of bench talents. But the team overall is better than last year’s, they did a great job hiring Ty Lue he’s been great so far, and they had two of the best signings of this past free agency cycle. Idk wtf you are complaining all over the place for

I agree with some of what you're saying. We need a good sample size of games played before we hit the panic button. Lue needs to see what ever player on this team can do before he settles down with his rotation. Which combinations work and which don't.
We can have a more meaningful discussion after 22 games in.

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