ImageImageImageImageImage

How is Frank any better than GM Doc?

Moderators: og15, TrueLAfan, QRich3

User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,197
And1: 4,522
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#101 » by Quake Griffin » Sun May 23, 2021 3:41 pm

Spo was coaching Wade n 11 Garbage cans to 43 and 47 win seasons before LeBron ever set foot in Cleveland.

I’ve always thought he would be a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over Doc. I’ve said that here and got laughed at by Doc supporters.

I’d hire Spo in a heartbeat.
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
Clemenza
Analyst
Posts: 3,530
And1: 2,570
Joined: Jan 21, 2013
Location: California
   

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#102 » by Clemenza » Sun May 23, 2021 3:55 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Spo was coaching Wade n 11 Garbage cans to 43 and 47 win seasons before LeBron ever set foot in Cleveland.

I’ve always thought he would be a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over Doc. I’ve said that here and got laughed at by Doc supporters.

I’d hire Spo in a heartbeat.

And LeBron wanted him fired asap! Even bumped into him disrespectfully during a timeout. He was lucky Pat Riley had his back
og15
Forum Mod - Clippers
Forum Mod - Clippers
Posts: 38,907
And1: 18,473
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Location: NBA Fan
 

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#103 » by og15 » Sun May 23, 2021 4:10 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:LeBron made adjustments. Lue watched the games from the sidelines.

This is why being a coach of a LeBron team is generally pretty sucky. Failures are due to your inability to do this or that and success is due to LeBron's ability to make the necessary changes and perform. It's basically a lose/lose to some people as a coach of a LeBron team. You lose, it's your fault, you win, it was LeBron.

Spoelstra is universally recognized as an elite coach, and for good reason, because he gets the most out of his teams and has the humility to address his own flaws when the team falls short - like when he changed his entire offensive system after the 2011 Finals. His success both pre- and post-LeBron disproves this narrative. Vogel was also already praised as a coach pre-LeBron because of his success in Indiana (still the only coach who ever made Playoff P look good in the playoffs).

LeBron really has spent most of his career making terrible coaches look better than they are with his overall greatness, unparalleled floor-raising ability, and incredible BBIQ. When these coaches don't have the luxury of the GOAT carrying them, they get exposed. That's why Lue's record in Cleveland with "just" Kyrie and Love playing was so horrible. Two All-Stars in a weak East weren't enough for him, he needed the GOAT to win games for him.

Frank's whole approach to the coaching issue last offseason was baffling from start to finish. He was actually planning to keep Doc after last season's failure until Ballmer stepped in. The other candidates we interviewed were laughable (Mike Brown, really?) Then he decided to promote from within the same coaching staff that had just failed miserably. The whole thing felt very half-assed, like they were begrudgingly making a coaching change for the sake of optics.

I just don't see any real vision with Frank as POBO and the coaching search was a microcosm of that. He's loyal to the Doc tree because he was part of the Doc tree. He's obsessed with acquiring the Pistons' castoffs because he used to coach the Pistons. He doesn't set trends or keep up with the rest of the league, he sticks to what he knows. We can and should do better than this front office.

Yet when LeBron got there and things weren't working out as perfectly as people wanted, the big LeBron fans were calling for Spo's head, and even LeBron was downplaying him. It was Riley not budging that kept Spo there. The receipts are all over the internet. Of course in hindsight it's much easier to say all this after all the success Spo has had, but in real time Spo was constantly blamed.

I don't care for Doc, so that part is irrelevant to me. I'm not even arguing that Lue is amazing (or even good, I don't know yet, not enough data), but suggesting that he made no adjustments and it was all LeBron as if LeBron decided rotations and minutes too is crazy. Yes, players are the ultimate deciding factor in the end, high IQ players make a big difference.
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,197
And1: 4,522
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#104 » by Quake Griffin » Sun May 23, 2021 4:12 pm

Clemenza wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Spo was coaching Wade n 11 Garbage cans to 43 and 47 win seasons before LeBron ever set foot in Cleveland.

I’ve always thought he would be a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over Doc. I’ve said that here and got laughed at by Doc supporters.

I’d hire Spo in a heartbeat.

And LeBron wanted him fired asap! Even bumped into him disrespectfully during a timeout. He was lucky Pat Riley had his back

You mean Pat Riley was smart not to fire him.***

Got another Finals appearance out of the deal....just that place our franchise has never been.

It was all LeBron though.
-_-
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,197
And1: 4,522
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#105 » by Quake Griffin » Sun May 23, 2021 4:15 pm

og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
og15 wrote:This is why being a coach of a LeBron team is generally pretty sucky. Failures are due to your inability to do this or that and success is due to LeBron's ability to make the necessary changes and perform. It's basically a lose/lose to some people as a coach of a LeBron team. You lose, it's your fault, you win, it was LeBron.

Spoelstra is universally recognized as an elite coach, and for good reason, because he gets the most out of his teams and has the humility to address his own flaws when the team falls short - like when he changed his entire offensive system after the 2011 Finals. His success both pre- and post-LeBron disproves this narrative. Vogel was also already praised as a coach pre-LeBron because of his success in Indiana (still the only coach who ever made Playoff P look good in the playoffs).

LeBron really has spent most of his career making terrible coaches look better than they are with his overall greatness, unparalleled floor-raising ability, and incredible BBIQ. When these coaches don't have the luxury of the GOAT carrying them, they get exposed. That's why Lue's record in Cleveland with "just" Kyrie and Love playing was so horrible. Two All-Stars in a weak East weren't enough for him, he needed the GOAT to win games for him.

Frank's whole approach to the coaching issue last offseason was baffling from start to finish. He was actually planning to keep Doc after last season's failure until Ballmer stepped in. The other candidates we interviewed were laughable (Mike Brown, really?) Then he decided to promote from within the same coaching staff that had just failed miserably. The whole thing felt very half-assed, like they were begrudgingly making a coaching change for the sake of optics.

I just don't see any real vision with Frank as POBO and the coaching search was a microcosm of that. He's loyal to the Doc tree because he was part of the Doc tree. He's obsessed with acquiring the Pistons' castoffs because he used to coach the Pistons. He doesn't set trends or keep up with the rest of the league, he sticks to what he knows. We can and should do better than this front office.

Yet when LeBron got there and things weren't working out as perfectly as people wanted, the big LeBron fans were calling for Spo's head, and even LeBron was downplaying him. It was Riley not budging that kept Spo there. The receipts are all over the internet. Of course in hindsight it's much easier to say all this after all the success Spo has had, but in real time Spo was constantly blamed.

I don't care for Doc, so that part is irrelevant to me. I'm not even arguing that Lue is amazing (or even good, I don't know yet, not enough data), but suggesting that he made no adjustments and it was all LeBron as if LeBron decided rotations and minutes too is crazy. Yes, players are the ultimate deciding factor in the end, high IQ players make a big difference.

Not me.

Biggest LeBron fan here (2003-2018).

I thought LeBron was off for doing that and I never ever blamed Spo for any shortcomings.

I thought that in real time. Not later.
I’ve always respected Spo.
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
og15
Forum Mod - Clippers
Forum Mod - Clippers
Posts: 38,907
And1: 18,473
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Location: NBA Fan
 

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#106 » by og15 » Sun May 23, 2021 6:02 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:
og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Spoelstra is universally recognized as an elite coach, and for good reason, because he gets the most out of his teams and has the humility to address his own flaws when the team falls short - like when he changed his entire offensive system after the 2011 Finals. His success both pre- and post-LeBron disproves this narrative. Vogel was also already praised as a coach pre-LeBron because of his success in Indiana (still the only coach who ever made Playoff P look good in the playoffs).

LeBron really has spent most of his career making terrible coaches look better than they are with his overall greatness, unparalleled floor-raising ability, and incredible BBIQ. When these coaches don't have the luxury of the GOAT carrying them, they get exposed. That's why Lue's record in Cleveland with "just" Kyrie and Love playing was so horrible. Two All-Stars in a weak East weren't enough for him, he needed the GOAT to win games for him.

Frank's whole approach to the coaching issue last offseason was baffling from start to finish. He was actually planning to keep Doc after last season's failure until Ballmer stepped in. The other candidates we interviewed were laughable (Mike Brown, really?) Then he decided to promote from within the same coaching staff that had just failed miserably. The whole thing felt very half-assed, like they were begrudgingly making a coaching change for the sake of optics.

I just don't see any real vision with Frank as POBO and the coaching search was a microcosm of that. He's loyal to the Doc tree because he was part of the Doc tree. He's obsessed with acquiring the Pistons' castoffs because he used to coach the Pistons. He doesn't set trends or keep up with the rest of the league, he sticks to what he knows. We can and should do better than this front office.

Yet when LeBron got there and things weren't working out as perfectly as people wanted, the big LeBron fans were calling for Spo's head, and even LeBron was downplaying him. It was Riley not budging that kept Spo there. The receipts are all over the internet. Of course in hindsight it's much easier to say all this after all the success Spo has had, but in real time Spo was constantly blamed.

I don't care for Doc, so that part is irrelevant to me. I'm not even arguing that Lue is amazing (or even good, I don't know yet, not enough data), but suggesting that he made no adjustments and it was all LeBron as if LeBron decided rotations and minutes too is crazy. Yes, players are the ultimate deciding factor in the end, high IQ players make a big difference.

Not me.

Biggest LeBron fan here (2003-2018).

I thought LeBron was off for doing that and I never ever blamed Spo for any shortcomings.

I thought that in real time. Not later.
I’ve always respected Spo.

I don't doubt that. I like LeBron myself, awesome player, but there certain narratives that some over the top LeBron fans tend to throw out there where all success is him and failure is everyone else. Then you have the pendulum swing of the anti-Lebronites where everything wrong is his fault, and his victories are because of everything else, but that's another discussion
RingColluder
Pro Prospect
Posts: 963
And1: 240
Joined: Mar 02, 2021

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#107 » by RingColluder » Sun May 23, 2021 7:41 pm

og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
RingColluder wrote:He made adjustments in the 3-1 Warriors Cavs series.

LeBron made adjustments. Lue watched the games from the sidelines.

This is why being a coach of a LeBron team is generally pretty sucky. Failures are due to your inability to do this or that and success is due to LeBron's ability to make the necessary changes and perform. It's basically a lose/lose to some people as a coach of a LeBron team. You lose, it's your fault, you win, it was LeBron.


Vogel has gotten tremendous respect in coaching circles (in some ways more than Spo's first Heat ring) and given a lot of credit for his help in getting the Lakers the ring next year, not sure what you're reading..
og15
Forum Mod - Clippers
Forum Mod - Clippers
Posts: 38,907
And1: 18,473
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Location: NBA Fan
 

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#108 » by og15 » Sun May 23, 2021 7:47 pm

RingColluder wrote:
og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:LeBron made adjustments. Lue watched the games from the sidelines.

This is why being a coach of a LeBron team is generally pretty sucky. Failures are due to your inability to do this or that and success is due to LeBron's ability to make the necessary changes and perform. It's basically a lose/lose to some people as a coach of a LeBron team. You lose, it's your fault, you win, it was LeBron.


Vogel has gotten tremendous respect in coaching circles (in some ways more than Spo's first Heat ring) and given a lot of credit for his help in getting the Lakers the ring next year, not sure what you're reading..

That's why I said generally vs always
RingColluder
Pro Prospect
Posts: 963
And1: 240
Joined: Mar 02, 2021

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#109 » by RingColluder » Sun May 23, 2021 7:49 pm

og15 wrote:
RingColluder wrote:
og15 wrote:This is why being a coach of a LeBron team is generally pretty sucky. Failures are due to your inability to do this or that and success is due to LeBron's ability to make the necessary changes and perform. It's basically a lose/lose to some people as a coach of a LeBron team. You lose, it's your fault, you win, it was LeBron.


Vogel has gotten tremendous respect in coaching circles (in some ways more than Spo's first Heat ring) and given a lot of credit for his help in getting the Lakers the ring next year, not sure what you're reading..

That's why I said generally vs always


Ty Lue I'd argue gets a ton of respect too, and Spo in retrospect has become one of the top 3 or so elite coaches in circles. So really it boils down to more if you lose with LeBron it's a huge mark on your career bc of his talent level, but at the end of the day, coaches who win rings still always get the respect they deserve.
wco81
RealGM
Posts: 13,373
And1: 5,140
Joined: Jul 04, 2013
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#110 » by wco81 » Mon May 24, 2021 7:58 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:Time for another update after Game 1:

Paul George ($190 million): Abysmal in the first half (1-7 shooting). His decent second half wasn't nearly enough to make up for the disappearing act he put on for half the game.
Marcus Morris ($64 million): 4 points on 2-8 shooting (0-6 from three), -23. Basically unplayable.
Luke Kennard ($64 million): DNP


I'm curious about the circumstances around these signings.

PG13 - he was hand-picked by Kawhi so there was no doubt the Clippers were going to pay him. With his contract he should be at least the second-best player leading the team to title contention. He's don't it for big stretches of the regular season and had big playoffs games but he hasn't done it consistently enough in the playoffs.

But they weren't going to NOT sign him to an extension, after all that they gave up for him. At least sign him and look at trading him if necessary.


Marcus Morris - He shot well for the Knicks before the Clippers traded for him, didn't shoot so well in the regular season. In the playoffs he shot really well.

But I wonder if the Clippers had any other options than to sign him? Did they have the cap space to go out into the open market and find another starter-level forward who could shoot? Weren't they only able to sign Morris because they got his Bird rights when they traded for him?


Luke Kennard - They must certainly have known when they traded for him that he was going to be RFA next season so they must have calculated whether it was worth trading for him and then extending him.

Again, could the Clippers have signed a starter level 2/3 in free agency or the only way was to trade, meaning sending out some assets?


That's the thing about having 2 max contract players on the roster. Makes you competitive but you're limited in whom you can acquire and sign for the rest of the roster.


If Morris and Kennard don't make contributions in this playoffs run, there will be questions raised but I think they will have at least one more season to see if they fit into the long-term picture.

Same thing for PG13, you're not getting another all-NBA level player for him unless it's a situation like AD who is burning bridges with his current team and demanding to be traded or he will walk away in free agency.
og15
Forum Mod - Clippers
Forum Mod - Clippers
Posts: 38,907
And1: 18,473
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Location: NBA Fan
 

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#111 » by og15 » Tue May 25, 2021 2:02 am

Kennard was not a good extension, that's a dead horse they we've beaten over and over again. I don't think anyone is arguing that it was. There was no pressure or imminence to signing him, they could have waited and seen how he played, but it's done.

PG extension, I'm not sure why people expected anything different. It just wouldn't make sense to give up all the assets, not re-sign him, then what? Hope that Kawhi re-signs regardless with the secondary hope that another star FA at least as good as PG, hopefully better wants to come to the Clippers and that they can clear enough cap space for the player? Yikes!

You re-sign, you have some leverage, you have options. If things don't work out, you can still make a move. The NBA landscape is constantly changing, unexpected players become available at times, better to have assets to make a move than not have them and just hope for FA signings.

Morris, yes, it was one of those over the cap, can't sign anyone else in the free agent market, so unless the Clippers are trying to save money, avoid luxury tax, etc his contract is not preventing any other big signing or moves. I think sometimes people focus too much on contract amounts and don't do enough homework on context and salary cap, etc.

Not having Morris on the roster doesn't open up his contract amount to sign another player. The amount of years was more what I was meh about, especially since there aren't any options in the contract IIRC.
User avatar
madmaxmedia
General Manager
Posts: 8,789
And1: 4,129
Joined: Jun 22, 2001
Location: SoCal

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#112 » by madmaxmedia » Tue May 25, 2021 7:29 pm

For better and for worse, IIRC Doc and Frank inherited different situations which makes it hard to compare them by only comparing the results of their teams. Doc didn't inherit the Lob City squad, that was basically set in stone when he arrived (for better and for worse.) Our big 3 was Blake, CP3, and Deandre, his job as GM was mainly to try to complete a championship level squad largely with those 3 as the core. OTOH Frank was part of the front office that blew up that core, and then turned those returns into what we have today. Again, for better and for worse.

I'd say they both had their successes and failures. Certainly neither was an 'F', neither was/has been an 'A' either in my book. I think you have a single head coach-GM only when you already have a playoff core built, and hope that combination coach-GM can lead you to that big step to championship contender. For that reason I thought Doc was a pretty good hire to do that, even if I didn't like some of his moves.

With Frank the analysis is very different. I think he (with Jerry West's help) made some great bold moves to completely re-position the franchise which IMO definitely deserves kudos. OTOH, for every good smaller move he's made (such as the Ivica Zubac trade) there's probably a complementary bad move (Luke Kennard extension.)

I guess I think they are both good solid good basketball people that unfortunately tripped up here and there in smaller moves that ultimately cost us upside, as can be seen in our playoff results over both tenures.
wco81
RealGM
Posts: 13,373
And1: 5,140
Joined: Jul 04, 2013
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#113 » by wco81 » Wed May 26, 2021 5:22 am

Just stunning results so far. Maybe bad matchup but Mavs have shot the lights out in the first two games.

Clippers have players who are unplayable in this series, Zubac, Beverly, Jackson, Rondo.

They can score but Mavs can score a lot more easily. No point in having a defensive player in Beverly out there when Luka is ruthlessly hunting him, Zubac, Jackson, etc.

But is it just a bad matchup or is there a fundamental roster problem?

How would the Clippers fare vs. Utah/Memphis, Lakers/Suns, Denver/Portland?

Out of those, I would guess they would do well against all of them except Lakers, Denver and Mavs, based on regular season and the 2 games so far in this series. Haven't watched regular season games with these teams but I am giving Clippers the benefit of the doubt vs. Utah and Phoenix, because of their experience (and the fact that Mitchell and CP3 are now hobbled).

That's still almost half the field so that might mean the ceiling for this roster is second round or WCF, assuming most of these cores stay intact the next couple of seasons after this one.

I don't know what's going to happen with Lowry, who's a free agent. It would be hard for the Clippers to get him without giving up a major asset in a sign and trade. But you don't want him to sign with any of the other contenders.
TheNewEra
RealGM
Posts: 25,348
And1: 8,244
Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Location: Lob City
       

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#114 » by TheNewEra » Wed May 26, 2021 1:06 pm

wco81 wrote:Just stunning results so far. Maybe bad matchup but Mavs have shot the lights out in the first two games.

Clippers have players who are unplayable in this series, Zubac, Beverly, Jackson, Rondo.

They can score but Mavs can score a lot more easily. No point in having a defensive player in Beverly out there when Luka is ruthlessly hunting him, Zubac, Jackson, etc.

But is it just a bad matchup or is there a fundamental roster problem?

How would the Clippers fare vs. Utah/Memphis, Lakers/Suns, Denver/Portland?

Out of those, I would guess they would do well against all of them except Lakers, Denver and Mavs, based on regular season and the 2 games so far in this series. Haven't watched regular season games with these teams but I am giving Clippers the benefit of the doubt vs. Utah and Phoenix, because of their experience (and the fact that Mitchell and CP3 are now hobbled).

That's still almost half the field so that might mean the ceiling for this roster is second round or WCF, assuming most of these cores stay intact the next couple of seasons after this one.

I don't know what's going to happen with Lowry, who's a free agent. It would be hard for the Clippers to get him without giving up a major asset in a sign and trade. But you don't want him to sign with any of the other contenders.

Luka is hunting the whole team he’s scoring on everyone
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,197
And1: 4,522
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#115 » by Quake Griffin » Wed May 26, 2021 2:36 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Never truly liked him for the role and never really liked this whole idea that he is supposed to be some positive result from the Doc era- where Doc was terrible at POBO but at least he set us up with Frank, etc. etc.

Not my cup of tea.

We can certainly do better. We have the resources to do better. We should.

Welp. There I was on record in December.

Question is....
If we lose this series.
Do we fire Frank? Or do we fire all the guys - Winger, Redden?
What about Lee Jenkins? Wasn't he supposed to Vice President of having his finger on the pulse of something? The league? The locker room? How TF do we have the most sluggish, unenthusiastic bunch of any team in the playoffs?
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
User avatar
MartinToVaught
RealGM
Posts: 12,146
And1: 14,832
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#116 » by MartinToVaught » Wed May 26, 2021 2:37 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Never truly liked him for the role and never really liked this whole idea that he is supposed to be some positive result from the Doc era- where Doc was terrible at POBO but at least he set us up with Frank, etc. etc.

Not my cup of tea.

We can certainly do better. We have the resources to do better. We should.

Welp. There I was on record in December.

Question is....
If we lose this series.
Do we fire Frank? Or do we fire all the guys - Winger, Redden?
What about Lee Jenkins? Wasn't he supposed to Vice President of having his finger on the pulse of something? The league? The locker room? How TF do we have the most sluggish, unenthusiastic bunch of any team in the playoffs?

Literally everyone should be fired.
Image
wco81
RealGM
Posts: 13,373
And1: 5,140
Joined: Jul 04, 2013
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#117 » by wco81 » Wed May 26, 2021 4:09 pm

Would firing the front office make a difference though?

After next season, Beverly and Rondo come off the books. That's $22 million in salaries so they could also be traded as expiring contracts next year. Otherwise, the Clippers seem to have cap space limitations for making major changes to personnel.

That would let them get a good starter back?

On paper, Clippers got two of the best forwards in the NBA, all-NBA and MVP candidates. It was assumed that would be enough and while they've had big regular seasons, it may be that it's not enough.

Kawhi could sign the extension to stay with the Clippers, get the most money, stay in SoCal. But would it be the best choice if he wants more rings?

He may not want to move out to say Dallas or Miami which have cap space.
User avatar
TucsonClip
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,464
And1: 839
Joined: Jan 19, 2011
Contact:
 

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#118 » by TucsonClip » Wed May 26, 2021 5:46 pm

I just dont see how you can run this back if we lose in the first round.
Plus, why would I want to go to the NBA? Duke players suck in the pros.

- Shane Battier
User avatar
MartinToVaught
RealGM
Posts: 12,146
And1: 14,832
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#119 » by MartinToVaught » Wed May 26, 2021 5:55 pm

wco81 wrote:Would firing the front office make a difference though?

Having a good front office is always better than having a bad one.
Image
User avatar
MartinToVaught
RealGM
Posts: 12,146
And1: 14,832
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
     

Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#120 » by MartinToVaught » Wed May 26, 2021 5:57 pm

TucsonClip wrote:I just dont see how you can run this back if we lose in the first round.

It's already egregious that we ran it back as much as we did after last season. Hell, this is the same franchise that kept running it back with Doc for years when it was obvious after the Houston series that we were never winning anything with him.
Image

Return to Los Angeles Clippers