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How is Frank any better than GM Doc?

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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#121 » by Clemenza » Wed May 26, 2021 6:13 pm

I say get a new front office. No disrepect to Jerry West but him and Lawrence Frank have done Ballmer wrong. Bad first round drafting, bad contracts doled out, and love that Kawhi is on the team but the process to get him and letting him force the trade is not playing out well. Series isn't over yet though so we'll see
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#122 » by Clemenza » Thu May 27, 2021 2:34 am

Coaching staff and front office are not on the same page. Damn shame

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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#123 » by esqtvd » Thu May 27, 2021 4:37 am

Clemenza wrote:I say get a new front office. No disrepect to Jerry West but him and Lawrence Frank have done Ballmer wrong. Bad first round drafting, bad contracts doled out, and love that Kawhi is on the team but the process to get him and letting him force the trade is not playing out well. Series isn't over yet though so we'll see



yes but Ballmer signed off on every major move

this was always a one-way ticket because at age 64 Ballmer did not want to wait for a rebuild

and since you can't fire the owner, the highest-paid FO in sports is next lol


Shamet is 6th man on the title favorites while Kennard can't even get off the bench [nor should]
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#124 » by madmaxmedia » Thu May 27, 2021 3:41 pm

esqtvd wrote:
Clemenza wrote:I say get a new front office. No disrepect to Jerry West but him and Lawrence Frank have done Ballmer wrong. Bad first round drafting, bad contracts doled out, and love that Kawhi is on the team but the process to get him and letting him force the trade is not playing out well. Series isn't over yet though so we'll see


yes but Ballmer signed off on every major move

this was always a one-way ticket because at age 64 Ballmer did not want to wait for a rebuild

and since you can't fire the owner, the highest-paid FO in sports is next lol

Shamet is 6th man on the title favorites while Kennard can't even get off the bench [nor should]


I'm really happy for Landry, he was struggling with his shot at the beginning of the season.

The big move to get Kawhi and Paul George was not a 100% win because of what we gave up to get George, but it's hard (for me) to really criticize that move even now, without a very large helping of hindsight. I mean with the benefit of hindsight even Kawhi might change his mind and pick another player for the Clippers to target, or whatever- someone less talented but in hindsight a better fit. At the time, the short/mid-term ROI of getting both players even against what we gave up was very good, it's not like Kawhi forced our hand to trade for a so-so, non-All-Star best friend.

So I still think all the big moves were good ones, major franchise altering ones at that (trading Blake, then trading Harris, then parlaying the returns into Kawhi and PG.) But we've missed on many secondary moves, including most of our draft picks. Having 1 or 2 later 1st round pick just slightly surprise and become a good energy role players makes a big difference for a old, top-heavy playoff team. Then the one younger guy we do acquire, we trade for a non-factor this season. So as before, we end up having to try to squeeze water out of rocks trying to fill out the roster, which invariably means getting even older because who else is available for MLE, vet min, or buyout market???

Assuming we don't win a championship, it's going to be a very interesting off-season.

On a side note, teams that generally only make consensus draft picks are often criticized for being sheep, not having good scouts who can really find great talent/picks, etc. But off the top of my head I feel like the surprise picks more often fail than not. There's a reason why consensus picks are what they are, even if conventional wisdom is not 100% accurate.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#125 » by esqtvd » Thu May 27, 2021 10:01 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:
On a side note, teams that generally only make consensus draft picks are often criticized for being sheep, not having good scouts who can really find great talent/picks, etc. But off the top of my head I feel like the surprise picks more often fail than not. There's a reason why consensus picks are what they are, even if conventional wisdom is not 100% accurate.


Interesting thought but besides Porter--whom we passed on for medical reasons, which puts it in a different category--nobody drafted after Jerome Robinson particularly stands out.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/redrafting-the-2018-nba-draft-suns-take-luka-doncic-with-no-1-pick-instead-of-deandre-ayton/
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#126 » by MartinToVaught » Thu May 27, 2021 10:05 pm

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It's safe to say that the Ibaka signing has been ANOTHER failure by this front office. At this point, it might be quicker to list the things they've done right.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#127 » by wco81 » Thu May 27, 2021 10:23 pm

Wasn't Ibaka in demand during free agency? I think he chose the Clippers because of Kawhi.

What would have been the alternative, re-sign Harrell?

Ibaka and Harrell made the same money this season and they both have a $9.7 million player options for next year.

Even the Lakers are cutting Harrell's minutes in the playoffs while Clippers are trying to get Ibaka into playoffs games.

Ibaka and Harrell both are probably going to look for longer-term deals, though Ibaka may opt-in because of the injuries he had this season.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#128 » by MartinToVaught » Thu Jun 3, 2021 2:59 pm

Marcus Morris ($64 million) has been abysmal all series and Luke Kennard ($64 million) can't play outside of garbage time. Ibaka has been a bust of a signing. Beverley ($40 million) is already washed to the point of being unplayable and he still has another whole season left on that contract.

Rick Carlisle is working miracles with a team that is garbage outside of Luka. He's putting on a clinic on how to adjust both during games and between games. Ty "Doc 2.0" Lue, by comparison, is so inept at his job that despite correctly predicting what Carlisle's next moves would be before the game, he still made zero adjustments and went with the same gameplan that the Mavs had already figured out anyway. It took him until GAME 4 to do something as obvious as moving Zu out of the starting lineup. If the Mavs hadn't choked Game 3 away, we would have effectively been swept before Lue made a single adjustment.

How much more does Ballmer need to see before he fires this front office? They are mediocre at best in the draft, they get fleeced in trades, they wildly overpay for marginal players, and they screwed up arguably the most important coaching search in the history of the franchise. Ballmer needs to fire everyone and back up the Brinks truck to get Masai.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#129 » by MartinToVaught » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:07 am

I shouldn't even have to explain at this point why the $190 million contract for PG is reason enough to fire everyone. It's embarrassing for the fans and even more so for the franchise. We'll never win a title when we go into every playoff game hoping that PG doesn't shoot 2-14 and check out mentally.

Marcus Morris ($64 million) has also been terrible throughout the entire playoffs except for one game. Who were we bidding against, exactly?
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#130 » by Quake Griffin » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:13 am

It is kinda bad to have your $190 million player be a choke and a sore spot for fans watching and fans in sports banter.

LOL.
Guy is literally out there getting jeered by Utah fans.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#131 » by wco81 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 6:21 am

Well one game. As we saw with the first round, after 2 games, the Clippers looked dead but they clawed back.

Kahwi carried the team through the first round. Can he against a better defense? He'll get his points but he has to set up the shooters, who were red-hot in the first half.

Yeah PG13 is pressing too hard, trying to create for himself. Sometimes the shots fall, sometimes they don't, when you take tough off the dribble shots.

The contract is what it is. Didn't he carry the team through stretches of the season when Kawhi wasn't playing? No he may ultimately not be good enough to be a #2 scorer on a championship team. But there are players making that max money who aren't even in the playoffs. So it's pretty much the going rate.

No way he was going to take say a $20 million or $100 million over 5 years deal, not when you have the richest owner in the league.

Yeah Morris took some tough shots but on this team, he should mostly be catch and shoot. Earlier in his career, they could shoot off the dribble contested midrange shots. But that's not the game any more. I think they paid him because he's shown during his career that he can knock down 3s at a good enough rate.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#132 » by Clemenza » Wed Jun 9, 2021 7:25 am

Quake Griffin wrote:It is kinda bad to have your $190 million player be a choke and a sore spot for fans watching and fans in sports banter.

LOL.
Guy is literally out there getting jeered by Utah fans.

That atmosphere had a college element to it which I enjoyed. No lie when they chanted 'overrated' to him while at the free throw line he had a angry look in his eyes like he wanted some paybasck to shut them up. Should've taken that last shot but oh well hopefully he's show an proves on Thursday.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#133 » by clipperlover » Wed Jun 9, 2021 4:59 pm

Clemenza wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:It is kinda bad to have your $190 million player be a choke and a sore spot for fans watching and fans in sports banter.

LOL.
Guy is literally out there getting jeered by Utah fans.

That atmosphere had a college element to it which I enjoyed. No lie when they chanted 'overrated' to him while at the free throw line he had a angry look in his eyes like he wanted some paybasck to shut them up. Should've taken that last shot but oh well hopefully he's show an proves on Thursday.


They also chanted "Playoff P" before "Overrated". I have not seen the killer instinct from PG since he has come to the Clips. He is silky smooth, but doesn't have the ice running in his veins. Hope his 4th quarter is the beginning of a change for him. I think he has deferred so much to Westbrook and Kawhi the last few years that he has forgotten how to rise to the occasion.

Ingles punked him in the playoffs a couple of years back and that is why Utah fans love to get on him. If he can slay that dragon in Game 2, then I think he has a chance to be the player we expect.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#134 » by TucsonClip » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:11 am

The dollar amount doesn't matter if Balmer is willing to pay.

People always seem to forget the cap rules when discussing dudes being overpaid. Yes, they are, but they are also the only way for us to construct trades and fill out the roster with decent players.

Rondo
Luke
Sr

All are trade chips for salary matching. Say what you want about PG, but there is no chance in hell we were gonna be able to trade him without an extension, so lump him in too if you wish.

I told you all, Rondo was traded for this playoff push AND the fact we can aggregate his salary over the summer or on draft night with our first round pick, which people see to forget we have every other year. You can do that same with the names above.

So what someone calls a dumb move and an overpay, also means we retained a potential asset and salary matching in trades.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#135 » by esqtvd » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:48 am

TucsonClip wrote:The dollar amount doesn't matter if Balmer is willing to pay.

People always seem to forget the cap rules when discussing dudes being overpaid. Yes, they are, but they are also the only way for us to construct trades and fill out the roster with decent players.

Rondo
Luke
Sr

All are trade chips for salary matching. Say what you want about PG, but there is no chance in hell we were gonna be able to trade him without an extension, so lump him in too if you wish.

I told you all, Rondo was traded for this playoff push AND the fact we can aggregate his salary over the summer or on draft night with our first round pick, which people see to forget we have every other year. You can do that same with the names above.

So what someone calls a dumb move and an overpay, also means we retained a potential asset and salary matching in trades.


Our board cementheads still don't understand why we 'overpaid' Austin and Jamal in the insane salary summer of 2016. It was either that or lose them and have to replace them with MINIMUM WAGE garbage off the street.

BTW the Lakers are SO f**ked lol. Forget Trezz--who HAS to exercise his $9M player option after having his market value incinerated by his benching. The fLakers are also stuck long-term with Kuzma who was no less a disaster this season than Trezz. And then there's UFA Dennis Schroder, who is this year's scapegoat.

Gasol is walking dead, and the Lakers might have no choice than to keep Drummond who is a statistical marvel but a STIFF in real basketball.

Anyway, Jeff, great to see you back around here. I think were seeing a sea change in the NBA---your 22 year olds, not your 32 year olds. This Clippers team is 30 year old and already tired, with more than half the playoffs to go. The Nets might win this one but the Superteam concept is already played out.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#136 » by clipperlover » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:54 pm

esqtvd wrote:Our board cementheads still don't understand why we 'overpaid' Austin and Jamal in the insane salary summer of 2016. It was either that or lose them and have to replace them with MINIMUM WAGE garbage off the street.


No one was paying Silver Spoon that much in 2016. We SHOULD have replaced him with a Minimum Wage player because that is exactly what he was. Only on his dad's team was he worth more than that. In 2015-2016, Ish Smith started 53 games (Spoon had started only 42 in the prior 4 seasons). Ish signed for $6M in that off-season. Spoon was not worth double. Because Daddy enriched the family, the Clippers were forced to overpay Crawford.

We absolutely could have signed minimum players and not done any worse. We still got bounced in the 1st round.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#137 » by MartinToVaught » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:59 pm

We overpaid Austin because his dad was the GM and coach. End of story. Letting him walk would have been addition by subtraction.

Jamal was hardly irreplaceable either. He was consistently atrocious in the playoffs because of his inefficiency and poor defense. He only got overpaid because the players demanded it and Doc caved instead of doing his job as GM.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#138 » by Quake Griffin » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:55 pm

It was a problem for some in the locker room - an unnecessary one given the level of player that he is.

Doc literally gave that kid every opportunity to get his **** together when he was certainly about to be out of the league. These were opportunities I couldn't see any other NBA team giving him at the time. To Austin's credit, he turned himself into an actual league player (though not a very good one). Nonetheless, the juice was never worth the squeeze with that kid. It rings hollow to defend paying him as an alternative to garbage cans off the street when the entire investment is an avenue we shouldn't have gone down AND it's questionable he would have gotten that anywhere else.

We are seeing this same logic with Paul George. Individually, the juice is not worth the squeeze with him. Then we have to pay him or lose him for nothing. Rings hollow to defend paying him on the basis of pay him or lose him for nothing given the level of investment in him, individually, was not worth the squeeze.

Of course there's an argument that the juice was worth the squeeze factoring in Kawhi but Kawhi will finish writing that script for us over the next week or 2.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#139 » by wco81 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:18 pm

Well if CP3 has beef with Austin as rumored, he's punishing Austin's team in the playoffs now, Phoenix up 2-0.
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Re: How is Frank any better than GM Doc? 

Post#140 » by esqtvd » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:28 pm

clipperlover wrote:
We absolutely could have signed minimum players and not done any worse.


Can't argue with statements like this. :dontknow:

Austin got 3 years/$35 million. Tyler Johnson got 4 years and $50 million that summer and had about the same production. It was the going rate and replacing our FAs with rando guys off the street makes no sense to me.




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