Game 38 : Los Angeles Clippers (24-13) @ Washington Wizards (13-20) - 7:00PM

[NickP]

Harell is better scorer and a more energetic / mobile guy, Zubac is a better rebounder and rim protector and has superior size. These two players bring different skill sets. I’m not really sure what is being argued here. We already determined that the team can’t have Ibaka and Trez because the hard cap would not make it possible to sign all the contracts signed. Correction, the team could have both, but then Marcus Morris would have had to be let go.

We also understand that chemistry was a problem, so a player who was having friction with your stars is just as likely to make the team worse by compounding chemistry issues as they are to make the team better through their play.

So the options are Ibaka + Trez (no Morris), Ibaka + Morris (no Montrezl). Zubac still has value as a big to guard bigger big men. It’s the same reason the Lakers are looking at guys like Cousins and Drummond. Yes, those big men might not be needed the same way in every series, but when you run into a team in which you need those big men, not having them can mean losing. The Clippers can’t have championship hopes and see teams with guys like Jokic and Embiid and have zero big men with size on the roster, it’s foolish.

For example, Dwight Howard averaged 7.8 mpg and played 2/5 games vs Houston, but then played 20.2 mpg vs Denver and was on for 35 mins in the closing game 5, then went back down to 11.8 mpg vs Miami.

Zubac is 23 (almost 24) and has a friendly contract for two more seasons after this one, moving him just for the sake of moving him doesn’t really make much sense. Harrell is a nice player, but the Clippers locking themselves into Harrell locks them into some problems that they were trying to figure out.

1) He’s not a starter on the Clippers based on fit, spacing and his specific skills
2) In the playoffs he’s not strong or versatile enough on defense to be a consistent high minute player every series.

The Clippers fit is simply not as good as the fit with the Lakers who are a bigger team and have a PF who can both play outside and can protect the rim and be an anchor. A player being better than another in a vacuum is just that, it doesn’t mean the fit is better for building a championship roster.

Part of the reason we gave up on Trez is his defense. Vogel wouldn't even play him in a close game where AD and Kuz were both out.
Keeping him and Lou and playing them both in the playoffs was a disaster.

[RingColluder]

Harell is better scorer and a more energetic / mobile guy, Zubac is a better rebounder and rim protector and has superior size. These two players bring different skill sets. I’m not really sure what is being argued here. We already determined that the team can’t have Ibaka and Trez because the hard cap would not make it possible to sign all the contracts signed. Correction, the team could have both, but then Marcus Morris would have had to be let go.

We also understand that chemistry was a problem, so a player who was having friction with your stars is just as likely to make the team worse by compounding chemistry issues as they are to make the team better through their play.

So the options are Ibaka + Trez (no Morris), Ibaka + Morris (no Montrezl). Zubac still has value as a big to guard bigger big men. It’s the same reason the Lakers are looking at guys like Cousins and Drummond. Yes, those big men might not be needed the same way in every series, but when you run into a team in which you need those big men, not having them can mean losing. The Clippers can’t have championship hopes and see teams with guys like Jokic and Embiid and have zero big men with size on the roster, it’s foolish.

For example, Dwight Howard averaged 7.8 mpg and played 2/5 games vs Houston, but then played 20.2 mpg vs Denver and was on for 35 mins in the closing game 5, then went back down to 11.8 mpg vs Miami.

Zubac is 23 (almost 24) and has a friendly contract for two more seasons after this one, moving him just for the sake of moving him doesn’t really make much sense. Harrell is a nice player, but the Clippers locking themselves into Harrell locks them into some problems that they were trying to figure out.

1) He’s not a starter on the Clippers based on fit, spacing and his specific skills
2) In the playoffs he’s not strong or versatile enough on defense to be a consistent high minute player every series.

The Clippers fit is simply not as good as the fit with the Lakers who are a bigger team and have a PF who can both play outside and can protect the rim and be an anchor. A player being better than another in a vacuum is just that, it doesn’t mean the fit is better for building a championship roster.

Part of the reason we gave up on Trez is his defense. Vogel wouldn't even play him in a close game where AD and Kuz were both out.
Keeping him and Lou and playing them both in the playoffs was a disaster.

Playing Zu at any point this season has been a disaster. The only strength he has is that he is tall. If Harrell gets 14 points but gives up 8, vs. Zu who gives up 6 and gets nothing on offense, who is the better play? Our offense is cripplingly bad with our 2nd team lineup and ends up just being PG isos and him jumping in the air in the paint for a turnover. Lou looks totally lost trying to develop chemistry with Zu and we've already gone over Kennard. Morris is the only guy bailing us out. Imagine how unstoppable our 2nd team would have been w Trez/Lou chemistry, Morris as a spot up, and alternating having either Kawhi or PG to help out too.

And once again since no one argues otherwise, Zu has regressed despite ample opportunity. I love how people are acting like he's some above average defender when he is NOT. You could hear multiple times in the last game Ty Lue yelling at Zu to switch onto the other guy in the 4th quarter and took him out when it was becoming an issue. THE WIZARDS.

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And cap space wise, we couldn't have traded Zu (at his supposed peak of his career last year) and still signed Trez and Ibaka while not signing Kennard long term?

You know what's the worst thing for chemistry? LOSING GAMES. I understand had Doc been the coach Trez could not have stayed, but Ty Lue a player friendly coach could have eased things up and Harrell was upset and offended the Clippers never offered him anything. Suck it up PG! You made nice with Dame this weekend, you could do it with Trez.

And Cousins and Drummond even in their diminished state still pose a threat OFFENSIVELY to opponents which Zu does not (in addition to being tall big men). Maybe if Zu was even 50% as coordinated or had hands that weren't awful he'd be compared to them, but to even compare them to Zu is laughable. There's a reason the Lakers (a team I despise but makes savvy moves) traded him to the Clippers of all teams!! We really believe the Clippers management is at the level of the Lakers basketball IQ wise? Come on!

2 years 18 million. People are letting their personal opinion of Trez as a person cloud their judgment on pure numbers. If people choose to believe Trez was at his peak in the bubble and not suffering tremendously/extremely out of shape bc of personal circumstances that's on you.

I just find it funny to hear the silence regarding Zu this season after so much hooplah over him last year.

You ask 29 teams and their fans who they would want on their team on their 2nd team at the given price/trade value and 29 of them say Trez. Easily. He does things that only a handful of bigmen can do in the league, and this idea that he gives it all up on defense the other way when Zu can't even keep the ball in his hands AND has been lost on defense this entire season is ludicrous

[RingColluder]

Let's look at both of their last 10 games:

Zu averages around 8 rebounds a game. Great. He's had 3 games with 2 blocks, the other 7 games he had 0 blocks. He had 3 games with 12 points or so, and an outlier great game for him with 22 points.

He's also 5 out of 10 (50%) absolutely dud games on offense. 20 minutes with 2-3 points is UNACCEPTABLE. He also averages slightly over 1 turnover a game as well.

So yes a decent rebounder.. and that's it. His offense is atrocious and extremely extremely inconsistent.


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Harrell averages about 6 rebounds a game. . I'm sorry, that is not a significant difference in rebounding when Zu is constantly losing his man on defense and getting lost. He also averaged about a block a game as well. I thought Zu was significantly better on defense? The stats actually do Zu's game justice better than the eye test.

Now offensively. Harrell has had 3 dud games for his standard, at 6 points or so in 20 minutes. Not 3 points. The other 7 out of 10 games he averages double digit points with 2 games at (26 points!!) and averaging closer to 20 points in the other 4 games. His turnovers like Zu are around 1 a game as well, just like his blocks.

Being fair to both since they both played the Wizards recently, Zu in 30 minutes had 13 points and 13 rebounds. In 7 less minutes of playing time, Harrell had 26 points (10-17) and 9 rebounds. 26 points! We literally let a guy go for 9 million a year who has the ability to go OFF on any given night and give the 2nd team a lift, instead of the dull limited chemistry 2nd lineup we currently have.

So Zu is currently averaging about 8.5 points a game and Harrell is at 14.5 pts a game, with very similar rebound numbers, but yet somehow Zu's "defense" is worth that extra 6 points a game?!? No no no no.

Personally I was always curious to see how a Zu, Harrell front court looked but bc of Zu's failure to step up and progress as a player this season year, we are in the market for both a legitimate center and PG at the deadline. Help us basketball gods

[esqtvd]

Let's look at both of their last 10 games:

Zu averages around 8 rebounds a game. Great. He's had 3 games with 2 blocks, the other 7 games he had 0 blocks. He had 3 games with 12 points or so, and an outlier great game for him with 22 points.

He's also 5 out of 10 (50%) absolutely dud games on offense. 20 minutes with 2-3 points is UNACCEPTABLE. He also averages slightly over 1 turnover a game as well.

So yes a decent rebounder.. and that's it. His offense is atrocious and extremely extremely inconsistent.


----
Harrell averages about 6 rebounds a game. . I'm sorry, that is not a significant difference in rebounding when Zu is constantly losing his man on defense and getting lost. He also averaged about a block a game as well. I thought Zu was significantly better on defense? The stats actually do Zu's game justice better than the eye test.

Now offensively. Harrell has had 3 dud games for his standard, at 6 points or so in 20 minutes. Not 3 points. The other 7 out of 10 games he averages double digit points with 2 games at (26 points!!) and averaging closer to 20 points in the other 4 games. His turnovers like Zu are around 1 a game as well, just like his blocks.

many good points
I'm not down on Zu but at a plus/minus barely over zero on a winning team as backup center, the numbers are not on his side

You're flirting with an interesting statistical argument here--averages vs medians. This is where statistics can tell us a lot, and where season averages tend to conceal more than they reveal. It's necessary to look at the last 10-15 games just as it's instructive to follow the RUNNING plus/minus during a game.

a) Especially for a backup center, I would rate night-to-night consistency over up-and-down performances that look ok when averaged out.

Being fair to both since they both played the Wizards recently, Zu in 30 minutes had 13 points and 13 rebounds. In 7 less minutes of playing time, Harrell had 26 points (10-17) and 9 rebounds. 26 points! We literally let a guy go for 9 million a year who has the ability to go OFF on any given night and give the 2nd team a lift, instead of the dull limited chemistry 2nd lineup we currently have.

So Zu is currently averaging about 8.5 points a game and Harrell is at 14.5 pts a game, with very similar rebound numbers, but yet somehow Zu's "defense" is worth that extra 6 points a game?!? No no no no.

b) And the other half of your argument--can this guy be a difference-maker? WIN you a game when everybody else was sucking ass? INCLUDING your starters/leaders?

As the backup center, Trezz was plus+4.0 for the Clippers and Zu is plus+0.4 on this year's squad. Big difference. Does anybody think Zubac would be getting 24 mpg on this year's Lakers like Trezz is? Be serious.

Can anybody say with a straight face that Ivica Zubac ever won us a game we would have lost? Trezz did, Lou has. That's why this blame game is such rubbish. Like you say, the NBA is about DOING. Scoring more than the other guy.

[RingColluder]

Let's look at both of their last 10 games:

Zu averages around 8 rebounds a game. Great. He's had 3 games with 2 blocks, the other 7 games he had 0 blocks. He had 3 games with 12 points or so, and an outlier great game for him with 22 points.

He's also 5 out of 10 (50%) absolutely dud games on offense. 20 minutes with 2-3 points is UNACCEPTABLE. He also averages slightly over 1 turnover a game as well.

So yes a decent rebounder.. and that's it. His offense is atrocious and extremely extremely inconsistent.


----
Harrell averages about 6 rebounds a game. . I'm sorry, that is not a significant difference in rebounding when Zu is constantly losing his man on defense and getting lost. He also averaged about a block a game as well. I thought Zu was significantly better on defense? The stats actually do Zu's game justice better than the eye test.

Now offensively. Harrell has had 3 dud games for his standard, at 6 points or so in 20 minutes. Not 3 points. The other 7 out of 10 games he averages double digit points with 2 games at (26 points!!) and averaging closer to 20 points in the other 4 games. His turnovers like Zu are around 1 a game as well, just like his blocks.

many good points
I'm not down on Zu but at a plus/minus barely over zero on a winning team as backup center, the numbers are not on his side

You're flirting with an interesting statistical argument here--averages vs medians. This is where statistics can tell us a lot, and where season averages tend to conceal more than they reveal. It's necessary to look at the last 10-15 games just as it's instructive to follow the RUNNING plus/minus during a game.

a) Especially for a backup center, I would rate night-to-night consistency over up-and-down performances that look ok when averaged out.

Being fair to both since they both played the Wizards recently, Zu in 30 minutes had 13 points and 13 rebounds. In 7 less minutes of playing time, Harrell had 26 points (10-17) and 9 rebounds. 26 points! We literally let a guy go for 9 million a year who has the ability to go OFF on any given night and give the 2nd team a lift, instead of the dull limited chemistry 2nd lineup we currently have.

So Zu is currently averaging about 8.5 points a game and Harrell is at 14.5 pts a game, with very similar rebound numbers, but yet somehow Zu's "defense" is worth that extra 6 points a game?!? No no no no.

b) And the other half of your argument--can this guy be a difference-maker? WIN you a game when everybody else was sucking ass? INCLUDING your starters/leaders?

As the backup center, Trezz was plus+4.0 for the Clippers and Zu is plus+0.4 on this year's squad. Big difference. Does anybody think Zubac would be getting 24 mpg on this year's Lakers like Trezz is? Be serious.

Can anybody say with a straight face that Ivica Zubac ever won us a game we would have lost? Trezz did, Lou has. That's why this blame game is such rubbish. Like you say, the NBA is about DOING. Scoring more than the other guy.

Bingo! Glad someone can see it like I do.


Let's hope we're both wrong about Zu and he becomes a superhuman elite rebounder and offensive automatic 16+ pts a game player by Thursday so we can either trade him or have a decent chance to make a deep run in the playoffs!

[esqtvd]

Let's hope we're both wrong about Zu and he becomes a superhuman elite rebounder and offensive automatic 16+ pts a game player by Thursday so we can either trade him or have a decent chance to make a deep run in the playoffs!

Nobody's wrong about Zu. His stats are the same as last year's. It's just how Coach uses him. One thing we haven't seen is Zu with the starting unit--like last year--and Serge with the 2nd. I think Coach knows the politics here--Serge came to play alongside Kawhi Leonard, not Lou Williams and certainly not with Terance Mann.

Politics suck, man. IMO, the only reason Senior "volunteered" to come off the bench is he got PAID. Play me 40 minutes or play me 10. I get PAID the same. Frankly, it looks like Senior just shows up for the paycheck. I'd like to see you do a median analysis on him. How many games he comes to play and how many he barely showed up for.

[NickP]

Let's hope we're both wrong about Zu and he becomes a superhuman elite rebounder and offensive automatic 16+ pts a game player by Thursday so we can either trade him or have a decent chance to make a deep run in the playoffs!

Nobody's wrong about Zu. His stats are the same as last year's. It's just how Coach uses him. One thing we haven't seen is Zu with the starting unit--like last year--and Serge with the 2nd. I think Coach knows the politics here--Serge came to play alongside Kawhi Leonard, not Lou Williams and certainly not with Terance Mann.

Politics suck, man. IMO, the only reason Senior "volunteered" to come off the bench is he got PAID. Play me 40 minutes or play me 10. I get PAID the same. Frankly, it looks like Senior just shows up for the paycheck. I'd like to see you do a median analysis on him. How many games he comes to play and how many he barely showed up for.

You must be a fly on the wall huh?
Since you just made a statement that Morris doesn't care about winning as long as he gets paid?
More GARBAGE takes as usual.

[RingColluder]

I like Morris's game. I would like to see how he does in the starting lineup, Batum has soured on me.

[esqtvd]

I like Morris's game. I would like to see how he does in the starting lineup, Batum has soured on me.

We got Batum as a FA and are paying him the minimum. I expect a lot more from Senior, for whom we traded assets and who is our 3rd highest-paid player. 12/4/1 is not doing it for me. 10th on the Clippers in plus/minus, ahead of only Kennard and Mann. In his last 8 games he's scored 9, 17, 5, 11, 9, 4, 11, and 10. This is not a team leader.

It's funny how people like Lou get all the flak and certain guys like Senior fly below the radar untouched.

[RingColluder]

I like Morris's game. I would like to see how he does in the starting lineup, Batum has soured on me.

We got Batum as a FA and are paying him the minimum. I expect a lot more from Senior, for whom we traded assets and who is our 3rd highest-paid player. 12/4/1 is not doing it for me. 10th on the Clippers in plus/minus, ahead of only Kennard and Mann. In his last 8 games he's scored 9, 17, 5, 11, 9, 4, 11, and 10. This is not a team leader.

It's funny how people like Lou get all the flak and certain guys like Senior fly below the radar untouched.

I'm not ready to count him out at all until Lue swaps him with Batum in the starting lineup. I really like Morris's game on both sides of the ball and he easily our 3rd best shooter. I did not understand giving him a 4 year deal at his age though.

Most of my blame falls on management besides Kennard. I don't personally blame Lou or Zu or any of the underperforming players this season. This roster just sucks and it stems from Kawhi and company buying into the idea of him and PG being enough to win. PG is just a bad max player if you want to win a championship. Just like Melo and Russ, just isn't that type of winner in basketball.

[RingColluder]

Don't think people realize next season we will be a bottom 8 team if Kawhi leaves. Very scary times, gotta show something to start after the ASB.

[esqtvd]

Don't think people realize next season we will be a bottom 8 team if Kawhi leaves. Very scary times, gotta show something to start after the ASB.

And if the Lakers land Drummond, fuggetaboutit. Kawhi owes Ballmer nothing, promised nobody nothing [Serge can opt out], and got his running buddy Paul George PAID. He can walk away with a clean conscience if he wants.

[RingColluder]

Don't think people realize next season we will be a bottom 8 team if Kawhi leaves. Very scary times, gotta show something to start after the ASB.

And if the Lakers land Drummond, fuggetaboutit. Kawhi owes Ballmer nothing, promised nobody nothing [Serge can opt out], and got his running buddy Paul George PAID. He can walk away with a clean conscience if he wants.

I don' see Kawhi going to the Lakers if they repeat, but if they lose to the Nets or somehow miss the finals and Clippers don't make it past round 2, he's gone.

Best case in that scenario is Ballmer begs him to sign a 1 + 1 and gives some goodies to Uncle Dennis

[esqtvd]

I like Morris's game. I would like to see how he does in the starting lineup, Batum has soured on me.

We got Batum as a FA and are paying him the minimum. I expect a lot more from Senior, for whom we traded assets and who is our 3rd highest-paid player. 12/4/1 is not doing it for me. 10th on the Clippers in plus/minus, ahead of only Kennard and Mann. In his last 8 games he's scored 9, 17, 5, 11, 9, 4, 11, and 10. This is not a team leader.

It's funny how people like Lou get all the flak and certain guys like Senior fly below the radar untouched.

I'm not ready to count him out at all until Lue swaps him with Batum in the starting lineup. I really like Morris's game on both sides of the ball and he easily our 3rd best shooter. I did not understand giving him a 4 year deal at his age though.

Most of my blame falls on management besides Kennard. I don't personally blame Lou or Zu or any of the underperforming players this season. This roster just sucks and it stems from Kawhi and company buying into the idea of him and PG being enough to win. PG is just a bad max player if you want to win a championship. Just like Melo and Russ, just isn't that type of winner in basketball.

I'm not counting anybody out--with the playoffs closing in, this is our team and we either support them or we douchebag them and fingerpoint and scapegoat and turn every thread into a misery. I leave that for the offseason . [Some folks think it's their duty to do it 365/24/7. ]


In the meantime, SOMEBODY'S got to get in gear come the playoffs. Since February 1, we're 6-6.

PG has actually been carrying us and nobody's seemed to notice that Kawhi's plus/minus has been dragging ass lately. Lou has been carrying us too--he and PG are #1 and #2 in plus/minus over that period. Everyone else has been some varying degree of meh. Marcus is the worst except for Mann.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746&LastNGames=12&DateFrom=02%2F01%2F2021&DateTo=03%2F07%2F2021