Game 38 : Los Angeles Clippers (24-13) @ Washington Wizards (13-20) - 7:00PM

[esqtvd]

You would know better than me, but I coudl have sworn people on this board were talking about Zu's all star potential on the board last year.

And he is a below average performer who looked like an average player (with a decent ceiling) last year playing with stars. He has regressed. He is imo a 3rd string center on a supposed contending team not even close to a starter or even 2nd string caliber. Perhaps on a lottery team he can do very well as a backup but we saw even Robin Lopez take him to town multiple times tonight.



Are issues are strong rim protection and PG. Zu is 50% of that but I think he'll look much better playing w Batum on the 2dn team not Morris.

People (including me) were excited about his potential for improvement. But absolutely no one considered him any sort of potential all star, even if only for the fact that his style of big man is totally outdated in today's NBA.

I specifically remember multiple times hearing the words "All star" and Zu on this board. Is there an easy search button? LOL

In fairness I don't remember that either. I'm not down on Zu--he's still younger than Terance Mann and Luke Kennard.

But to this day there are people who still spit on Clipper 6MOYs Jamal, Lou and Trezz, the same people who were pumping Zu as a major player who deserved major minutes. They don't do that anymore.

[Clemenza]

You would know better than me, but I coudl have sworn people on this board were talking about Zu's all star potential on the board last year.

And he is a below average performer who looked like an average player (with a decent ceiling) last year playing with stars. He has regressed. He is imo a 3rd string center on a supposed contending team not even close to a starter or even 2nd string caliber. Perhaps on a lottery team he can do very well as a backup but we saw even Robin Lopez take him to town multiple times tonight.



Are issues are strong rim protection and PG. Zu is 50% of that but I think he'll look much better playing w Batum on the 2dn team not Morris.

People (including me) were excited about his potential for improvement. But absolutely no one considered him any sort of potential all star, even if only for the fact that his style of big man is totally outdated in today's NBA.

I specifically remember multiple times hearing the words "All star" and Zu on this board. Is there an easy search button? LOL

Nobody on this board put the words Zu and All Star together not once. If he even flashed any sort of all star material he would still be with the Lakers

[og15]

People (including me) were excited about his potential for improvement. But absolutely no one considered him any sort of potential all star, even if only for the fact that his style of big man is totally outdated in today's NBA.

I specifically remember multiple times hearing the words "All star" and Zu on this board. Is there an easy search button? LOL

Nobody on this board put the words Zu and All Star together not once. If he even flashed any sort of all star material he would still be with the Lakers

Only person I can think of could be Clipsfansince98 who might have said something to that effect, but he's on the GB and doesn't really frequent the Clippers board.

[RingColluder]

People (including me) were excited about his potential for improvement. But absolutely no one considered him any sort of potential all star, even if only for the fact that his style of big man is totally outdated in today's NBA.

I specifically remember multiple times hearing the words "All star" and Zu on this board. Is there an easy search button? LOL

In fairness I don't remember that either. I'm not down on Zu--he's still younger than Terance Mann and Luke Kennard.

But to this day there are people who still spit on Clipper 6MOYs Jamal, Lou and Trezz, the same people who were pumping Zu as a major player who deserved major minutes. They don't do that anymore. :wink:

The man got demoted after Trez left, how does that happen? And he still looks awful.

We desperately need some post game scoring off the bench, which Trez would have provided. He's an easy 14-16 pts a game at minimum. Sigh. And don't give me that, "He gives it up on defense" when Zu and Kennard do the exact same thing, only with way less consistency offensive scoring.

Whatever at this point the "All star" thing doesn't matter (Though I do wish I could search the key words "Zubac" and "All star" on this board specifically somehow lol).

Let's just hope he manages to actually provide some value to this team moving forward. This Wizards game was a major step back, especially in the 2nd half.

[esqtvd]

I specifically remember multiple times hearing the words "All star" and Zu on this board. Is there an easy search button? LOL

In fairness I don't remember that either. I'm not down on Zu--he's still younger than Terance Mann and Luke Kennard.

But to this day there are people who still spit on Clipper 6MOYs Jamal, Lou and Trezz, the same people who were pumping Zu as a major player who deserved major minutes. They don't do that anymore. :wink:

The man got demoted after Trez left, how does that happen? And he still looks awful.

We desperately need some post game scoring off the bench, which Trez would have provided. He's an easy 14-16 pts a game at minimum. Sigh. And don't give me that, "He gives it up on defense" when Zu and Kennard do the exact same thing, only with way less consistency offensive scoring.

Whatever at this point the "All star" thing doesn't matter (Though I do wish I could search the key words "Zubac" and "All star" on this board specifically somehow lol).

Let's just hope he manages to actually provide some value to this team moving forward. This Wizards game was a major step back, especially in the 2nd half.

Zu was a sacred cow around here last year [and still is] so it's amusing to see you shaking the tree. The irony is that Zu's stats are nearly identical across the board to last year's except for plus/minus. You is what you is.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1627826/

[NickP]

^^ How absolutely idiotic to say Zu got demoted especially when Trez left. You probably forgot we signed Serge Ibaka? Even Morris for the sake of this team gave up his starting position.
Seriously man, go build a monument for Trez and Doc.

Strike for personal attack, please address arguments and not people

[MartinToVaught]

The Trez/Doc obsession is borderline creepy at this point, honestly. How many championships did we win with those two again? How many times did we get past the second round?

[NickP]

The Trez/Doc obsession is borderline creepy at this point, honestly. How many championships did we win with those two again? How many times did we get past the second round?

Exactly. Every damn thread is about Trez and Doc. It's downright creepy at this point.

[RingColluder]

The Trez/Doc obsession is borderline creepy at this point, honestly. How many championships did we win with those two again? How many times did we get past the second round?

Who is talking about Doc?

You were the one raving about Zu all last season, and we would be a better team with Montrez and not Zu. We both know it.

Zu won't even get us past the 1st round this season unless his game dramatically improves

[RingColluder]

^^ How absolutely idiotic to say Zu got demoted especially when Trez left. You probably forgot we signed Serge Ibaka? Even Morris for the sake of this team gave up his starting position.
Seriously man, go build a monument for Trez and Doc.

So mods, we're allowed to make posts talking about, "how absolutely idiotic" people are? Just want to know where the lines are drawn on this board.


Zu was expected to be the starter this season, it was a total surprise to most he wasn't in the media.

Again, who is talking about Doc in a positive way? You probably forget to read the post?


I would say more in honesty, but will wait till I hear from the mods.

[RingColluder]

In fairness I don't remember that either. I'm not down on Zu--he's still younger than Terance Mann and Luke Kennard.

But to this day there are people who still spit on Clipper 6MOYs Jamal, Lou and Trezz, the same people who were pumping Zu as a major player who deserved major minutes. They don't do that anymore. :wink:

The man got demoted after Trez left, how does that happen? And he still looks awful.

We desperately need some post game scoring off the bench, which Trez would have provided. He's an easy 14-16 pts a game at minimum. Sigh. And don't give me that, "He gives it up on defense" when Zu and Kennard do the exact same thing, only with way less consistency offensive scoring.

Whatever at this point the "All star" thing doesn't matter (Though I do wish I could search the key words "Zubac" and "All star" on this board specifically somehow lol).

Let's just hope he manages to actually provide some value to this team moving forward. This Wizards game was a major step back, especially in the 2nd half.

Zu was a sacred cow around here last year [and still is] so it's amusing to see you shaking the tree. The irony is that Zu's stats are nearly identical across the board to last year's except for plus/minus. You is what you is.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1627826/

Yup! Exactly how I remember. Glad someone else can call it out as well.


He's a below average player (which isnt bad given his contract), but I was shocked how poorly he has performed this season not playing with PG and Kawhi constantly.

Unfortunately because of his game (and the loss of Trez), not only do we need a PG we also need a center who has hands. Zu should be doing hand eye coordination drills 24/7 in practice, what exactly is he doing? Kennard's game issues are mental it seems (and defensive) Zu has had hands of stones for years.

[NickP]

The Trez/Doc obsession is borderline creepy at this point, honestly. How many championships did we win with those two again? How many times did we get past the second round?

Who is talking about Doc?

You were the one raving about Zu all last season, and we would be a better team with Montrez and not Zu. We both know it.

Zu won't even get us past the 1st round this season unless his game dramatically improves

You must be esqtvd because you joined the board few days ago and are already talking about somebody raving about Zu all last season? Lol

[esqtvd]

The man got demoted after Trez left, how does that happen? And he still looks awful.

We desperately need some post game scoring off the bench, which Trez would have provided. He's an easy 14-16 pts a game at minimum. Sigh. And don't give me that, "He gives it up on defense" when Zu and Kennard do the exact same thing, only with way less consistency offensive scoring.

Whatever at this point the "All star" thing doesn't matter (Though I do wish I could search the key words "Zubac" and "All star" on this board specifically somehow lol).

Let's just hope he manages to actually provide some value to this team moving forward. This Wizards game was a major step back, especially in the 2nd half.

Zu was a sacred cow around here last year [and still is] so it's amusing to see you shaking the tree. The irony is that Zu's stats are nearly identical across the board to last year's except for plus/minus. You is what you is.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1627826/

Yup! Exactly how I remember. Glad someone else can call it out as well.


He's a below average player (which isnt bad given his contract), but I was shocked how poorly he has performed this season not playing with PG and Kawhi constantly.

Unfortunately because of his game (and the loss of Trez), not only do we need a PG we also need a center who has hands. Zu should be doing hand eye coordination drills 24/7 in practice, what exactly is he doing? Kennard's game issues are mental it seems (and defensive) Zu has had hands of stones for years.

I'm not going to lay it on the backup center this year or for last. It's Kawhi's team, his and Sundance's. For $30-40M a year you're supposed to be able to cover for the shortcomings of a guy making less than 20% of that.

It IS amazing that Zu's stats are almost exactly the same as last year's, yet nobody could say he's been particularly impressive this season. But he's the same player! It shows how in the eyes of many fans, perception equals reality.

[RingColluder]

Zu was a sacred cow around here last year [and still is] so it's amusing to see you shaking the tree. The irony is that Zu's stats are nearly identical across the board to last year's except for plus/minus. You is what you is.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1627826/

Yup! Exactly how I remember. Glad someone else can call it out as well.


He's a below average player (which isnt bad given his contract), but I was shocked how poorly he has performed this season not playing with PG and Kawhi constantly.

Unfortunately because of his game (and the loss of Trez), not only do we need a PG we also need a center who has hands. Zu should be doing hand eye coordination drills 24/7 in practice, what exactly is he doing? Kennard's game issues are mental it seems (and defensive) Zu has had hands of stones for years.

I'm not going to lay it on the backup center this year or for last. It's Kawhi's team, his and Sundance's. For $30-40M a year you're supposed to be able to cover for the shortcomings of a guy making less than 20% of that.

It IS amazing that Zu's stats are almost exactly the same as last year's, yet nobody could say he's been particularly impressive this season. But he's the same player! It shows how in the eyes of many fans, perception equals reality.

85% of this is on Lawrence Frank for lack of depth and roster contract moves.

Just like Kennard has career high's in FG% and 3PT% and has looked awful. Stats and numbers lie lol

[esqtvd]

Yup! Exactly how I remember. Glad someone else can call it out as well.


He's a below average player (which isnt bad given his contract), but I was shocked how poorly he has performed this season not playing with PG and Kawhi constantly.

Unfortunately because of his game (and the loss of Trez), not only do we need a PG we also need a center who has hands. Zu should be doing hand eye coordination drills 24/7 in practice, what exactly is he doing? Kennard's game issues are mental it seems (and defensive) Zu has had hands of stones for years.

I'm not going to lay it on the backup center this year or for last. It's Kawhi's team, his and Sundance's. For $30-40M a year you're supposed to be able to cover for the shortcomings of a guy making less than 20% of that.

It IS amazing that Zu's stats are almost exactly the same as last year's, yet nobody could say he's been particularly impressive this season. But he's the same player! It shows how in the eyes of many fans, perception equals reality.

85% of this is on Lawrence Frank for lack of depth and roster contract moves.

Just like Kennard has career high's in FG% and 3PT% and has looked awful. Stats and numbers lie lol

Percentages lie. The scoreboard does not.

[MartinToVaught]

we would be a better team with Montrez and not Zu. We both know it.

But we wouldn't. For the millionth time, Trez wouldn't have fixed our defense or our playmaking issues. All he would have brought to the table was a bad attitude. We'd be complaining about Trez right now and wishing we had Zu back.

[RingColluder]

we would be a better team with Montrez and not Zu. We both know it.

But we wouldn't. For the millionth time, Trez wouldn't have fixed our defense or our playmaking issues. All he would have brought to the table was a bad attitude. We'd be complaining about Trez right now and wishing we had Zu back.

Totally disagree, Trez is literally a better player in every aspect to Zu. Our 2nd team is again a powerful force with him opening up the floor for others and bringing the energy and hustle we so desperately need.

[esqtvd]

Totally disagree, Trez is literally a better player in every aspect to Zu. Our 2nd team is again a powerful force with him opening up the floor for others and bringing the energy and hustle we so desperately need.

Enjoying this

Re: debate tactics--LOL, you're doing well avoiding get sucked into only defending. Some people just attackattackattack and it often works especially with the weakminded. No positive case is being made for Zubac here, only trashing Trezz. But that doesn't make Zu the better player. I prefer to argue the affirmative case. Trashing people is easy but the NBA is about PRODUCTION not perfection. [This is why percentages lie.]

Trezz won 6MOY, averaging 18+ ppg not only in 2020 but in the 2019 playoffs too. Zu will never do that.

Neither do I think Zu could get 24 mpg on this year's Lakers team and be one of their top 5 or 6 best players. Like Trezz is on the Lakers, Zu is NOT on the Clippers. DEBATE OVER.


Personal note: I was a headhunter for lawyers for many years and I became friends briefly with a lawyer who was the federal prosecutor who convicted Mafioso Sam "The Plumber" DeCavalcante. He told me that "innocent until proven guilty" is bullsh*it. He won by attacking the defense, not by proving the case against DeCavalante. Attack long enough and hard enough and negative enough and you'll win over the jury.

I don't bother to do that on our board, just to win a debate. I don't want to argue that Zubac sucks. We need him, just like we needed Trezz. Nobody in the NBA is perfect; nobody in the NBA sucks or they're drummed out of it.

Except Jared Dudley. WTF.

[RingColluder]

Totally disagree, Trez is literally a better player in every aspect to Zu. Our 2nd team is again a powerful force with him opening up the floor for others and bringing the energy and hustle we so desperately need.

Enjoying this

Re: debate tactics--LOL, you're doing well avoiding get sucked into only defending. Some people just attackattackattack and it often works especially with the weakminded. No positive case is being made for Zubac here, only trashing Trezz. But that doesn't make Zu the better player. I prefer to argue the affirmative case. Trashing people is easy but the NBA is about PRODUCTION not perfection. [This is why percentages lie.]

Trezz won 6MOY, averaging 18+ ppg not only in 2020 but in the 2019 playoffs too. Zu will never do that.

Neither do I think Zu could get 24 mpg on this year's Lakers team and be one of their top 5 or 6 best players. Like Trezz is on the Lakers, Zu is NOT on the Clippers. DEBATE OVER.


Personal note: I was a headhunter for lawyers for many years and I became friends briefly with a lawyer who was the federal prosecutor who convicted Mafioso Sam "The Plumber" DeCavalcante. He told me that "innocent until proven guilty" is bullsh*it. He won by attacking the defense, not by proving the case against DeCavalante. Attack long enough and hard enough and negative enough and you'll win over the jury.

I don't bother to do that on our board, just to win a debate. I don't want to argue that Zubac sucks. We need him, just like we needed Trezz. Nobody in the NBA is perfect; nobody in the NBA sucks or they're drummed out of it.

Except Jared Dudley. WTF.

Thank you! Not much else to talk about till Thursday's game anyway.

[og15]

Harell is better scorer and a more energetic / mobile guy, Zubac is a better rebounder and rim protector and has superior size. These two players bring different skill sets. I’m not really sure what is being argued here. We already determined that the team can’t have Ibaka and Trez because the hard cap would not make it possible to sign all the contracts signed. Correction, the team could have both, but then Marcus Morris would have had to be let go.

We also understand that chemistry was a problem, so a player who was having friction with your stars is just as likely to make the team worse by compounding chemistry issues as they are to make the team better through their play.

So the options are Ibaka + Trez (no Morris), Ibaka + Morris (no Montrezl). Zubac still has value as a big to guard bigger big men. It’s the same reason the Lakers are looking at guys like Cousins and Drummond. Yes, those big men might not be needed the same way in every series, but when you run into a team in which you need those big men, not having them can mean losing. The Clippers can’t have championship hopes and see teams with guys like Jokic and Embiid and have zero big men with size on the roster, it’s foolish.

For example, Dwight Howard averaged 7.8 mpg and played 2/5 games vs Houston, but then played 20.2 mpg vs Denver and was on for 35 mins in the closing game 5, then went back down to 11.8 mpg vs Miami.

Zubac is 23 (almost 24) and has a friendly contract for two more seasons after this one, moving him just for the sake of moving him doesn’t really make much sense. Harrell is a nice player, but the Clippers locking themselves into Harrell locks them into some problems that they were trying to figure out.

1) He’s not a starter on the Clippers based on fit, spacing and his specific skills
2) In the playoffs he’s not strong or versatile enough on defense to be a consistent high minute player every series.

The Clippers fit is simply not as good as the fit with the Lakers who are a bigger team and have a PF who can both play outside and can protect the rim and be an anchor. A player being better than another in a vacuum is just that, it doesn’t mean the fit is better for building a championship roster.