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Playoff Paul George Mega-thread

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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#21 » by madmaxmedia » Wed May 5, 2021 5:24 pm

esqtvd wrote:We all know the reasons why the Clippers can't win, but the only fun now is why they CAN.


This is the bottom line right here. Our floor is certainly another second round exit (or even first round in worst case disaster scenario), but our ceiling is still very high with our roster. I think most all of us understand this, even if we sometimes forget that others also understand this too. I also think it was a very good idea for OP to start this thread so any general PG discussion can be done here, he is saying a lot of the same things he's said in game threads but the discussion has been much better here.

PG's overall stat line for the season has been great, but his night to night consistency obviously less so. Maybe it would be better if more of his games both good and bad were closer to his season averages but I guess it is what it is. I mean if he only leveled out the bad games he might be the best player in the league (which he's not.) Let's hope he can play at close to his season averages in the playoffs, even if it includes some bad games.

I agree when things are not going well he should focus on his shooting. I think he wants to help carry the load but forces the issue at times. Its generally not a bad thing at all to create in other ways when your shot is not falling, but at his height and with his good-but-not-great ball handling he is prone to turnovers. I would rather he try to shoot his way out of a slump than start forcing drives to the basket. I will accept living and dying with his 3 pointers as long as they are reasonably good looks.

Certainly much of our focus will be on PG and Kawhi playing well, but other half of this is what the staff and our game plans can do to help put those two in the best positions possible to succeed. I still believe if we do that, PG and Kawhi will generally produce for us this playoffs.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#22 » by og15 » Wed May 5, 2021 6:07 pm

RingColluder has one thing wrong, the issue isn’t criticizing Paul George. I wouldn’t even call myself a “Paul George fan”, I support him because he’s on the Clippers, but criticism of Paul George means little to me. I’ve even said that at times him opening his mouth brings some of the comments he gets. The issue is if it is so constant and excessive that every game thread somehow morphs into a discussion about Paul George and how he performs in the playoffs.

One of the biggest problems being that there’s not really anything new to say anymore. Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars. Basically any team he is on has to know this, and has to be prepared for it. The coaching staff should have a plan for his bad shooting nights that isn’t simply shooting himself out of it, but of course having a plan doesn’t mean it will work or will be executed as it should be.

If we wanted to be criticize our other star too, Kawhi has had issues himself with what people might call choking, but because he’s won championships, we don’t mention it.

    When the Clippers beat the Spurs in 2015, Kawhi averaged 14 ppg on 30% FG / 20% 3PT in games 5-7 after averaging 25 ppg on 60% FG / 56% 3PT in games 1-4. Clippers won games 6 and 7 by 6 and 2 points, if Kawhi didn’t massively suck offensively in those last two games, the Spurs would have won that series. The Clippers atrocious bench and lack of depth should not have beat the Spurs, even with how well CP and BG played, Kawhi’s performance in the closing games is what opened up the opportunity.

    In 15-16 vs OKC, Spurs won game 1 in a blowout fashion, then lost in 6 games, including losing the last three. Kawhi in those last 5 games had 3 bad/inefficient games and two efficient games. Overall his TS% in the last 5 games of the series was 51.5%. They lost the last three games, Kawhi averaged 50.5 TS% / 23 ppg / 7 rpg / 3.7 apg / 4.0 spg / 44% FG / 17% 3PT. He contributed in other areas, but his scoring used up a lot of possessions, and his efficiency was very poor.

    In 16-17, he was on a roll until he got injured.

    18-19 he helped the Raptors to a championship.

    Last season, he had to carry Paul George past the first round. Second round vs Denver, he had that bad game 2 performance, then games 6 and 7 his second halves were nothing but atrocious (3/10 = 11 pts, 1/11 = 2 pts), and game 7 was trash altogether. He’s much more consistent than PG, but he’s had his up and down moments too, seemingly more on a seasons by season run basis, it’s just not really acknowledged or even known by most people
.

That’s how it is though, body of work will tend to cover up deficiencies unless you are a player who has a large amount of supporters and therefore haters also and so they will find every flaw, every bad stretch, etc. This is not to hate on Kawhi, if we look, all players, even the most revered will have some series’ that didn’t go so well or some stretches of games in a series that they just didn’t come through. No one talks about Bird having 19 pts / 6-15 in game 5 and 12 pts / 5-19 in games 6 vs Philly in 1980 or averaging 18 ppg / 41% FG vs Philly in 82, etc.

Paul George is not going to become something he isn’t, but at least what the Clippers need from him is #1, don’t have the worst playoffs of his career like he did last season, #2, be consistent enough, enough is the key word. We’re not going to get Lebron 75-80% individual production consistency from Paul George, that’s just living in fantasy, even Kawhi would have a hard time with that. What we can’t have is 4 bad games in a 7 game series for example, and since last season was the only time that’s happened for him, I’d say we shouldn’t. The question is when the inevitable 1-2 bad-atrocious efficiency games will happen in a series, and if he can give enough other impact and the rest of team can do enough when he has a below average though not terrible game.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#23 » by clipperlover » Wed May 5, 2021 7:04 pm

RingColluder wrote:
clipperlover wrote:
RingColluder wrote:He's had 5 consecutive first round exits


Before starting a thread to bash a player, maybe get rid of the fake news. It is pretty easy to check.


*This is not to bash a player, it's to talk about him in a larger sense absent of the GT

If you looked at my second post, I verbatim wrote, "5 consecutive first round exits from him (excluding last year which also was a bad playoff year),"


I'll correct the first post then if it somehow makes the point better for you. :o


Consecutive: following continuously.
2011 - 1st round exit - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2012 - EC Semis - Opponent won the Title
2013 - EC Finals - Opponent won the Title
2014 - EC Finals - Opponent played for the Title
2016 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2017 - 1st Round - Opponent played for the Title
2018 - 1st Round - Opponent ousted in the WC Semis
2019 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the WC Finals
2020 - WC Semis - Opponent played in the WC Finals

Where are the 5 consecutive 1st round exits?

Seems to me that having only been ousted one time by a team that went on to the Conference Finals and/or NBA Finals shows that his teams were playing some damn good teams.

By comparison, Chris Paul's time with the Clippers saw us ousted multiple times by a team that didn't get past the semis. Damian Lillard's teams have been ousted multiple times by teams that didn't make it past the semis.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#24 » by esqtvd » Wed May 5, 2021 7:42 pm

og15 wrote:
If we wanted to be criticize our other star too, Kawhi has had issues himself with what people might call choking, but because he’s won championships, we don’t mention it.




Very good point that they mentioned on TNT last night. If Kawhi's buzzer-beater vs Philly doesn't bounce-bounce-bounce in and the Raptors don't win that title [helped also by KD's series-ending injury] what is Kawhi's reputation then?

Same player, plus or minus a lucky bounce.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#25 » by madmaxmedia » Wed May 5, 2021 8:04 pm

On a side note, I remember AI and the Sixers coming pretty close to going up 2-0 on the Lakers in that Finals. The Lakers probably would have gone on to win even down 2-0 (being that they were down 1-0 and won the series 4-1), but who knows. I think well-informed fans have a reasonable understanding of AI's strengths and weaknesses, but leading the Sixers to a championship over the Shaq/Kobe Lakers would have significantly impacted his legacy.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#26 » by RingColluder » Wed May 5, 2021 8:36 pm

clipperlover wrote:
RingColluder wrote:
clipperlover wrote:
Before starting a thread to bash a player, maybe get rid of the fake news. It is pretty easy to check.


*This is not to bash a player, it's to talk about him in a larger sense absent of the GT

If you looked at my second post, I verbatim wrote, "5 consecutive first round exits from him (excluding last year which also was a bad playoff year),"


I'll correct the first post then if it somehow makes the point better for you. :o


Consecutive: following continuously.
2011 - 1st round exit - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2012 - EC Semis - Opponent won the Title
2013 - EC Finals - Opponent won the Title
2014 - EC Finals - Opponent played for the Title
2016 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2017 - 1st Round - Opponent played for the Title
2018 - 1st Round - Opponent ousted in the WC Semis
2019 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the WC Finals
2020 - WC Semis - Opponent played in the WC Finals

Where are the 5 consecutive 1st round exits?

Seems to me that having only been ousted one time by a team that went on to the Conference Finals and/or NBA Finals shows that his teams were playing some damn good teams.

By comparison, Chris Paul's time with the Clippers saw us ousted multiple times by a team that didn't get past the semis. Damian Lillard's teams have been ousted multiple times by teams that didn't make it past the semis.



I said: 5 times excluding last year, which makes it 4.

"2016 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2017 - 1st Round - Opponent played for the Title
2018 - 1st Round - Opponent ousted in the WC Semis
2019 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the WC Finals"

There's your answer.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#27 » by RingColluder » Wed May 5, 2021 8:37 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:I’m a huge Dodger fan. So I’ve literally watched our franchise player melt down multiple times on the playoff stage. I also am a FORMER Tom Brady hater. Thus, Peyton Manning was that guy to me for years. I swore if Peyton ever had Belichick, he could have as many rings...

Just lol.

Some guys play UP or stay their normal elite self when the playoffs come:
- Derek Jeter
- Tom Brady
- Madison Bumgarner
- Curt Schilling
- LeBron (sorry Skip)
- Tim Duncan

Then there’s superstars or stars that become less of themselves in these moments:
- Kershaw
- David Price
- Peyton Manning
- Paul George

You want to believe these guys can get over the hump because the talent is there. Worst? These types of guys will actually give you a solid performance every now and then in the playoffs. Sucks you in. Makes you believe.

The betting money should ALWAYS be on these guys to be less than their regular season selves. You should always be hoping the roster can pick up their weak and choking garbage elsewhere when you need it.



Cliffs:
- Don’t expect Paul George to do anything but choke.
- If he doesn’t choke? It’s all profit.

#WheresThatImGonnaMissSGAThreadIMadeTheDayAfterWeTradedForPaulGeorge


This is so brilliantly said. Well done!

Paul George is basically in the same place LeBron was after choking to the Mavs.. except LeBron had already made it to multiple finals and Paul George despite ample talent throughout his career can't even make it to the finals :lol: :lol: I think I could list 30 Current players max or otherwise I would love to have on the team instead of him.

TBH it still astounds me how ANYOEN Can believe in PG for an entire playoff year (let alone series) given his track record. People really get sucked into that? Maybe 6-7 years ago when he was facing off with LBJ in the East but not anymore, especially after the OKC debacle.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#28 » by RingColluder » Wed May 5, 2021 8:39 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:
esqtvd wrote:We all know the reasons why the Clippers can't win, but the only fun now is why they CAN.


This is the bottom line right here. Our floor is certainly another second round exit (or even first round in worst case disaster scenario), but our ceiling is still very high with our roster. I think most all of us understand this, even if we sometimes forget that others also understand this too. I also think it was a very good idea for OP to start this thread so any general PG discussion can be done here, he is saying a lot of the same things he's said in game threads but the discussion has been much better here.

PG's overall stat line for the season has been great, but his night to night consistency obviously less so. Maybe it would be better if more of his games both good and bad were closer to his season averages but I guess it is what it is. I mean if he only leveled out the bad games he might be the best player in the league (which he's not.) Let's hope he can play at close to his season averages in the playoffs, even if it includes some bad games.

I agree when things are not going well he should focus on his shooting. I think he wants to help carry the load but forces the issue at times. Its generally not a bad thing at all to create in other ways when your shot is not falling, but at his height and with his good-but-not-great ball handling he is prone to turnovers. I would rather he try to shoot his way out of a slump than start forcing drives to the basket. I will accept living and dying with his 3 pointers as long as they are reasonably good looks.

Certainly much of our focus will be on PG and Kawhi playing well, but other half of this is what the staff and our game plans can do to help put those two in the best positions possible to succeed. I still believe if we do that, PG and Kawhi will generally produce for us this playoffs.


Because we are actually talking facts and logic, whereas a lot of things in the GT are purely emotion based. But I digress..

I think our floor is the first round exit. I'm not convinced at all we beat the Lakers w this roster and even the Mavericks.

The issue is PG is just an iso type of player, luckily at least he has started to drive more rather than shoot his awful contested 2's he was doing for so much of the season. If he can get to the line at least and make Ft's (which lately he has been struggling on, again a head scratcher) then things may be fine for now. I have serious doubts.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#29 » by RingColluder » Wed May 5, 2021 8:47 pm

og15 wrote:RingColluder has one thing wrong, the issue isn’t criticizing Paul George. I wouldn’t even call myself a “Paul George fan”, I support him because he’s on the Clippers, but criticism of Paul George means little to me. I’ve even said that at times him opening his mouth brings some of the comments he gets. The issue is if it is so constant and excessive that every game thread somehow morphs into a discussion about Paul George and how he performs in the playoffs.

One of the biggest problems being that there’s not really anything new to say anymore. Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars. Basically any team he is on has to know this, and has to be prepared for it. The coaching staff should have a plan for his bad shooting nights that isn’t simply shooting himself out of it, but of course having a plan doesn’t mean it will work or will be executed as it should be.

If we wanted to be criticize our other star too, Kawhi has had issues himself with what people might call choking, but because he’s won championships, we don’t mention it.

    When the Clippers beat the Spurs in 2015, Kawhi averaged 14 ppg on 30% FG / 20% 3PT in games 5-7 after averaging 25 ppg on 60% FG / 56% 3PT in games 1-4. Clippers won games 6 and 7 by 6 and 2 points, if Kawhi didn’t massively suck offensively in those last two games, the Spurs would have won that series. The Clippers atrocious bench and lack of depth should not have beat the Spurs, even with how well CP and BG played, Kawhi’s performance in the closing games is what opened up the opportunity.

    In 15-16 vs OKC, Spurs won game 1 in a blowout fashion, then lost in 6 games, including losing the last three. Kawhi in those last 5 games had 3 bad/inefficient games and two efficient games. Overall his TS% in the last 5 games of the series was 51.5%. They lost the last three games, Kawhi averaged 50.5 TS% / 23 ppg / 7 rpg / 3.7 apg / 4.0 spg / 44% FG / 17% 3PT. He contributed in other areas, but his scoring used up a lot of possessions, and his efficiency was very poor.

    In 16-17, he was on a roll until he got injured.

    18-19 he helped the Raptors to a championship.

    Last season, he had to carry Paul George past the first round. Second round vs Denver, he had that bad game 2 performance, then games 6 and 7 his second halves were nothing but atrocious (3/10 = 11 pts, 1/11 = 2 pts), and game 7 was trash altogether. He’s much more consistent than PG, but he’s had his up and down moments too, seemingly more on a seasons by season run basis, it’s just not really acknowledged or even known by most people
.

That’s how it is though, body of work will tend to cover up deficiencies unless you are a player who has a large amount of supporters and therefore haters also and so they will find every flaw, every bad stretch, etc. This is not to hate on Kawhi, if we look, all players, even the most revered will have some series’ that didn’t go so well or some stretches of games in a series that they just didn’t come through. No one talks about Bird having 19 pts / 6-15 in game 5 and 12 pts / 5-19 in games 6 vs Philly in 1980 or averaging 18 ppg / 41% FG vs Philly in 82, etc.

Paul George is not going to become something he isn’t, but at least what the Clippers need from him is #1, don’t have the worst playoffs of his career like he did last season, #2, be consistent enough, enough is the key word. We’re not going to get Lebron 75-80% individual production consistency from Paul George, that’s just living in fantasy, even Kawhi would have a hard time with that. What we can’t have is 4 bad games in a 7 game series for example, and since last season was the only time that’s happened for him, I’d say we shouldn’t. The question is when the inevitable 1-2 bad-atrocious efficiency games will happen in a series, and if he can give enough other impact and the rest of team can do enough when he has a below average though not terrible game.



"Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars" - This is a horrifying admission and the critical error in his ENTIRE game. We cannot give a max player a contract then like this, straight up. A max player should bring us closer to a championship not stile our cap space and make our odds of winning even shakier (even if its w a supposed higher ceiling).

And you're talking about Kawhi from 6 years ago. That's ridiculous. Kawhi has grown tremendously since then, that's the whole point of why he's considered one of the best in the game today. Paul George has regressed. Similar ages, and yet totally different stories. You're really talking about something from 6 years ago AND still choosing to ignore his monster series's against the Heat. There's a reason LeBron feared Kawhi even in the early parts of his career. He has never had that fear of PG.

And again, we're talking about a similar point from the GT. The REASON Kawhi played poorly in the later games is bc of Paul George's atrocious foul trouble. That doesn't show up on the box score but had he just played defense and used smart BBIQ (which he consistently fails to do INCLUDING in the last game) Kawhi doesn't have the issue. Kawhi played on teams with tremendous BBIQ w the Spurs and Raptors. He's getting exposed bc his max player counterpart is failing to do so.

You can find games and series where LeBron, KD and Steph Curry all "choked" too.. the bottom line is they won when they needed too and more often than not came up clutch. Just like Kawhi. Paul George is the total opposite of it. Quake Griffin had a remarkable post on it if people hadn't read it yet earlier in the thread...

And yes the issue is CONSISTENCY. Even less than that, NOT PLAYING ATROCIOUSLY IN THE PLAYOFFS. Kawhi has proven 3 times with 3 different rosters (less-so the Spurs I suppose) he can adjust and do it w virtually any sorts of teammates... Paul George has had the same type of opportunities and consistently failed to do so with 4 consecutive first round exits. That's not leadership, that's clownery.


The only thing Paul George is consistent at is being inconsistent. Your admission at the top of the post is why there's a conflict. As someone looking to win a CHAMPIONSHIP, "Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars" is UNACCEPTABLE.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#30 » by RingColluder » Wed May 5, 2021 8:50 pm

esqtvd wrote:
og15 wrote:
If we wanted to be criticize our other star too, Kawhi has had issues himself with what people might call choking, but because he’s won championships, we don’t mention it.




Very good point that they mentioned on TNT last night. If Kawhi's buzzer-beater vs Philly doesn't bounce-bounce-bounce in and the Raptors don't win that title [helped also by KD's series-ending injury] what is Kawhi's reputation then?

Same player, plus or minus a lucky bounce.


Then the game goes to overtime.

And Kawhi CARRIED that team against the 76ers when no one could even hit a shot. Was one of the all time best playoff performances, it was not just "a lucky bounce".

And even in that aspect if KD doesn't get injured, Kawhi's track record of getting to the finals is superb. Paul George hasn't even made it to the finals.

As "star" players they are in 2 completely separate categories. One has proven it time and time again, the other is a fraud and why other NBA stars don't respect him! PG is at best a mediocre #2, when my hopes for him after him signing were he'd be a low end #1 given he'd have to do less w a proven superstar in Kawhi. Instead it seems PG is the "#1" for some reason on both the Doc and Lue teams. Baffling!
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#31 » by RingColluder » Wed May 5, 2021 8:51 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:On a side note, I remember AI and the Sixers coming pretty close to going up 2-0 on the Lakers in that Finals. The Lakers probably would have gone on to win even down 2-0 (being that they were down 1-0 and won the series 4-1), but who knows. I think well-informed fans have a reasonable understanding of AI's strengths and weaknesses, but leading the Sixers to a championship over the Shaq/Kobe Lakers would have significantly impacted his legacy.


The sad part is it's going to somehow be considered a win for the franchise if they make it to the WCF. As a passionate sports fan it's championship or bust. Perhaps a finals appearance is good enough, but given the talent level of this team we just keep lowering and lowering the standard.

I remember after losing last year Lou Will was very upset and said we had championship hopes and dreams, and then minutes later Paul George pretended like that was never the goal that year :lol: :lol: Dude what?

An extremely talented and gifted athlete, but a very low BBIQ + other IQ player..
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#32 » by clipperlover » Wed May 5, 2021 9:50 pm

esqtvd wrote:
og15 wrote:
If we wanted to be criticize our other star too, Kawhi has had issues himself with what people might call choking, but because he’s won championships, we don’t mention it.




Very good point that they mentioned on TNT last night. If Kawhi's buzzer-beater vs Philly doesn't bounce-bounce-bounce in and the Raptors don't win that title [helped also by KD's series-ending injury] what is Kawhi's reputation then?

Same player, plus or minus a lucky bounce.


Kawhi would still be the NBA Finals MVP that took LeBron to task and ended the Miami Heat run.

He is also the same guy that helped his team take the season series from the Warriors in 2016-2017 and had his team up by 23 pts in Game 1 prior to going out with injury never to return in the series. With Kawhi out, Durant then went on to score 20 of his 34 and lead the Warriors comeback in Game 1.

Durant was Kawhi's b!+ch prior to going out in 2017. So, the chatter that the Warriors beat the Raptors if Durant doesn't go down is just non-sense. If Kawhi doesn't get hurt in 2017 WC Finals Game 1, Durant never gets a ring and Warriors fans are calling crying for Barnes.

Since people are questioning Kawhi's shot vs Philly, then how about this. If Kawhi doesn't miss his 1st FT in the 2013 NBA Finals Game 6 4th Quarter and the Spurs go up 4, then Miami's Ray Allen isn't in a position to tie the game with a 3 and send it to overtime and the Spurs win the title. Miami doesn't repeat.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#33 » by clipperlover » Wed May 5, 2021 10:04 pm

RingColluder wrote:I remember after losing last year Lou Will was very upset and said we had championship hopes and dreams


I know. He was so excited to get to the Finals that in his first opportunity to get to his 1st Conference Finals appearance, he went 2-10 from the field. 0-5 from 3 and scored 4 pts. He scored a blazing 0 pts in the 2nd half.

Kawhi and PG carried the offensive and defensive load in games 5, 6 and 7.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#34 » by clipperlover » Wed May 5, 2021 10:11 pm

RingColluder wrote:
clipperlover wrote:
RingColluder wrote:
*This is not to bash a player, it's to talk about him in a larger sense absent of the GT

If you looked at my second post, I verbatim wrote, "5 consecutive first round exits from him (excluding last year which also was a bad playoff year),"


I'll correct the first post then if it somehow makes the point better for you. :o


Consecutive: following continuously.
2011 - 1st round exit - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2012 - EC Semis - Opponent won the Title
2013 - EC Finals - Opponent won the Title
2014 - EC Finals - Opponent played for the Title
2016 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2017 - 1st Round - Opponent played for the Title
2018 - 1st Round - Opponent ousted in the WC Semis
2019 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the WC Finals
2020 - WC Semis - Opponent played in the WC Finals

Where are the 5 consecutive 1st round exits?

Seems to me that having only been ousted one time by a team that went on to the Conference Finals and/or NBA Finals shows that his teams were playing some damn good teams.

By comparison, Chris Paul's time with the Clippers saw us ousted multiple times by a team that didn't get past the semis. Damian Lillard's teams have been ousted multiple times by teams that didn't make it past the semis.



I said: 5 times excluding last year, which makes it 4.

"2016 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2017 - 1st Round - Opponent played for the Title
2018 - 1st Round - Opponent ousted in the WC Semis
2019 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the WC Finals"

There's your answer.

Here let me assist:

RingColluder wrote:
If you looked at my second post, I verbatim wrote, "5 consecutive first round exits from him (excluding last year which also was a bad playoff year),"


5 consecutive times, "excluding last year" is still 5 consecutive times instead of 6. I am still trying to count the 5 consecutive times.
Either way fake news.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#35 » by RingColluder » Wed May 5, 2021 10:21 pm

clipperlover wrote:
RingColluder wrote:
clipperlover wrote:
Consecutive: following continuously.
2011 - 1st round exit - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2012 - EC Semis - Opponent won the Title
2013 - EC Finals - Opponent won the Title
2014 - EC Finals - Opponent played for the Title
2016 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2017 - 1st Round - Opponent played for the Title
2018 - 1st Round - Opponent ousted in the WC Semis
2019 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the WC Finals
2020 - WC Semis - Opponent played in the WC Finals

Where are the 5 consecutive 1st round exits?

Seems to me that having only been ousted one time by a team that went on to the Conference Finals and/or NBA Finals shows that his teams were playing some damn good teams.

By comparison, Chris Paul's time with the Clippers saw us ousted multiple times by a team that didn't get past the semis. Damian Lillard's teams have been ousted multiple times by teams that didn't make it past the semis.



I said: 5 times excluding last year, which makes it 4.

"2016 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the EC Finals
2017 - 1st Round - Opponent played for the Title
2018 - 1st Round - Opponent ousted in the WC Semis
2019 - 1st Round - Opponent played in the WC Finals"

There's your answer.

Here let me assist:

RingColluder wrote:
If you looked at my second post, I verbatim wrote, "5 consecutive first round exits from him (excluding last year which also was a bad playoff year),"


5 consecutive times, "excluding last year" is still 5 consecutive times instead of 6. I am still trying to count the 5 consecutive times.
Either way fake news.


Ok this doesn't help your point whatsoever but ok :lol:

4 consecutive times! Happy? 8-)
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#36 » by Scoundreldays » Thu May 6, 2021 12:13 am

playaloc916 wrote:
Scoundreldays wrote:
RingColluder wrote:
Same! I was so happy after we had the trade that brought him and Kawhi here and thought we'd be unstoppable (he'd be the Pippen to Kawhi's Jordan) but alas it hasn't worked out at all up to this point. Didnt' realize what a ballstopper he was till he got to the Clippers and given the nature of last year's team chemistry turmoil not the best leader either...


Was a lurker last year as well and started posting early in the season (I think). It's a great board way better than reddit, just it turns out you can't discuss or even criticize PG at all in a general sense unless it's in it's own designed thread. Must be part of the max contract :lol:

Came from the gamefaqs board. This place is Heaven compared to there.
He has done pretty well against the Lakers this season so I'm hoping he can keep building up some momentum Thursday.

Wow! Gamefaqs board! I used to post on all sorts of message boards on Gamefaqs when I was in high school/college (probably over 15 years ago). Wow those were the days... I remember they had a basketball board but it was mostly casuals on there.

Same here! Can't believe I signed up back in 2002 there. Don't post anymore on there usually just look for information.
The board there is whatever, lots of silly takes and constant Lebron vs Jordan threads sprinkled with Lonzo Ball love and hate topics
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#37 » by MartinToVaught » Thu May 6, 2021 2:53 am

RingColluder wrote:The sad part is it's going to somehow be considered a win for the franchise if they make it to the WCF.

After 50 years of never making it that far, it would absolutely be a win. It would be a huge weight off this franchise's shoulders.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#38 » by RingColluder » Thu May 6, 2021 3:45 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
RingColluder wrote:The sad part is it's going to somehow be considered a win for the franchise if they make it to the WCF.

After 50 years of never making it that far, it would absolutely be a win. It would be a huge weight off this franchise's shoulders.


It's not a win, I don't care what franchise it is - when you have this level of talent anything less than a championship is a joke.
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#39 » by og15 » Thu May 6, 2021 4:06 am

RingColluder wrote:
og15 wrote:RingColluder has one thing wrong, the issue isn’t criticizing Paul George. I wouldn’t even call myself a “Paul George fan”, I support him because he’s on the Clippers, but criticism of Paul George means little to me. I’ve even said that at times him opening his mouth brings some of the comments he gets. The issue is if it is so constant and excessive that every game thread somehow morphs into a discussion about Paul George and how he performs in the playoffs.

One of the biggest problems being that there’s not really anything new to say anymore. Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars. Basically any team he is on has to know this, and has to be prepared for it. The coaching staff should have a plan for his bad shooting nights that isn’t simply shooting himself out of it, but of course having a plan doesn’t mean it will work or will be executed as it should be.

If we wanted to be criticize our other star too, Kawhi has had issues himself with what people might call choking, but because he’s won championships, we don’t mention it.

    When the Clippers beat the Spurs in 2015, Kawhi averaged 14 ppg on 30% FG / 20% 3PT in games 5-7 after averaging 25 ppg on 60% FG / 56% 3PT in games 1-4. Clippers won games 6 and 7 by 6 and 2 points, if Kawhi didn’t massively suck offensively in those last two games, the Spurs would have won that series. The Clippers atrocious bench and lack of depth should not have beat the Spurs, even with how well CP and BG played, Kawhi’s performance in the closing games is what opened up the opportunity.

    In 15-16 vs OKC, Spurs won game 1 in a blowout fashion, then lost in 6 games, including losing the last three. Kawhi in those last 5 games had 3 bad/inefficient games and two efficient games. Overall his TS% in the last 5 games of the series was 51.5%. They lost the last three games, Kawhi averaged 50.5 TS% / 23 ppg / 7 rpg / 3.7 apg / 4.0 spg / 44% FG / 17% 3PT. He contributed in other areas, but his scoring used up a lot of possessions, and his efficiency was very poor.

    In 16-17, he was on a roll until he got injured.

    18-19 he helped the Raptors to a championship.

    Last season, he had to carry Paul George past the first round. Second round vs Denver, he had that bad game 2 performance, then games 6 and 7 his second halves were nothing but atrocious (3/10 = 11 pts, 1/11 = 2 pts), and game 7 was trash altogether. He’s much more consistent than PG, but he’s had his up and down moments too, seemingly more on a seasons by season run basis, it’s just not really acknowledged or even known by most people
.

That’s how it is though, body of work will tend to cover up deficiencies unless you are a player who has a large amount of supporters and therefore haters also and so they will find every flaw, every bad stretch, etc. This is not to hate on Kawhi, if we look, all players, even the most revered will have some series’ that didn’t go so well or some stretches of games in a series that they just didn’t come through. No one talks about Bird having 19 pts / 6-15 in game 5 and 12 pts / 5-19 in games 6 vs Philly in 1980 or averaging 18 ppg / 41% FG vs Philly in 82, etc.

Paul George is not going to become something he isn’t, but at least what the Clippers need from him is #1, don’t have the worst playoffs of his career like he did last season, #2, be consistent enough, enough is the key word. We’re not going to get Lebron 75-80% individual production consistency from Paul George, that’s just living in fantasy, even Kawhi would have a hard time with that. What we can’t have is 4 bad games in a 7 game series for example, and since last season was the only time that’s happened for him, I’d say we shouldn’t. The question is when the inevitable 1-2 bad-atrocious efficiency games will happen in a series, and if he can give enough other impact and the rest of team can do enough when he has a below average though not terrible game.



"Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars" - This is a horrifying admission and the critical error in his ENTIRE game. We cannot give a max player a contract then like this, straight up. A max player should bring us closer to a championship not stile our cap space and make our odds of winning even shakier (even if its w a supposed higher ceiling).

And you're talking about Kawhi from 6 years ago. That's ridiculous. Kawhi has grown tremendously since then, that's the whole point of why he's considered one of the best in the game today. Paul George has regressed. Similar ages, and yet totally different stories. You're really talking about something from 6 years ago AND still choosing to ignore his monster series's against the Heat. There's a reason LeBron feared Kawhi even in the early parts of his career. He has never had that fear of PG.

And again, we're talking about a similar point from the GT. The REASON Kawhi played poorly in the later games is bc of Paul George's atrocious foul trouble. That doesn't show up on the box score but had he just played defense and used smart BBIQ (which he consistently fails to do INCLUDING in the last game) Kawhi doesn't have the issue. Kawhi played on teams with tremendous BBIQ w the Spurs and Raptors. He's getting exposed bc his max player counterpart is failing to do so.

You can find games and series where LeBron, KD and Steph Curry all "choked" too.. the bottom line is they won when they needed too and more often than not came up clutch. Just like Kawhi. Paul George is the total opposite of it. Quake Griffin had a remarkable post on it if people hadn't read it yet earlier in the thread...

And yes the issue is CONSISTENCY. Even less than that, NOT PLAYING ATROCIOUSLY IN THE PLAYOFFS. Kawhi has proven 3 times with 3 different rosters (less-so the Spurs I suppose) he can adjust and do it w virtually any sorts of teammates... Paul George has had the same type of opportunities and consistently failed to do so with 4 consecutive first round exits. That's not leadership, that's clownery.


The only thing Paul George is consistent at is being inconsistent. Your admission at the top of the post is why there's a conflict. As someone looking to win a CHAMPIONSHIP, "Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars" is UNACCEPTABLE.

2nd Tier Stars Doing 2nd Tier Star Things
Well, yea, this is why Paul George is a tier 2 star and not a tier 1 star. Initial expectations seem to be a factor. This is only a massive problem if you thought he was a higher tier of player, if not, this is nothing surprising. Tier 2 stars in the NBA are still max players, because that is how the NBA salary cap structure works out. I always see fans talking about max contracts as it if is this holy grail reserved for top 5-7 players, but isn't at all. The NBA salary structure means that we're going to have around 20+ max contract level players (not all will qualify for the highest max due to years of experience).


The Max Salary Confusion

Currently in the NBA there are:
    40 players making $27+ million
    22 players making $30+ million
    14 players making $34+ million


Even some guys that could be considered tier 3 stars will get max contracts. Most teams are incapable of getting two tier 1 stars, the lucky teams that do are getting a bargain for the amount of impact/production.

Most teams, including contenders will have one tier 1 star and then either a tier 2 and/or 3 star alongside them.

Paul George this season is making $35.5 million, his contract is within $3 million of Klay Thompson ($35.4), Mike Conley ($34.5), Kemba Walker ($34.3), Tobias Harris ($34.3), Khris Middleton ($33.0). I'm not here to discuss or argue whether any of those guys are better or worse, the point is that there is nothing out of the ordinary or worthy of complaining about Paul George having a max contract.

You can even go down $5-6 million from his contract, because if you got a player making $6 million less than PG, that $6 million is on average not going to get you anything to make your team much better than having Paul George and $6 million less in salary space. In the $29 million range, you're looking at guys like Wiggins, Adams, Siakam, Love, McCollum, etc.

Inconsistency is the name of the game for tier 2/3 stars

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/1/6/21050900/most-least-consistent-nba-player
The reason a player is a 2nd option on a contender is due to their lack of production consistency.

Code: Select all

NBA All-Star Consistency Since 2017-18
Player   Games   Retained Production
LeBron James   171   60.2%
Giannis Antetokounmpo   181   59.2%
Kevin Durant   146   58.6%
Kawhi Leonard   97   57.0%
James Harden   184   56.4%
Anthony Davis   163   55.3%
DeMarcus Cousins   78   54.8%
Damian Lillard   187   53.2%
Joel Embiid   156   52.9%
Stephen Curry   122   51.8%
Ben Simmons   194   50.4%
Jimmy Butler   155   50.3%
Russell Westbrook   184   50.2%
Nikola Vucevic   160   49.5%
Karl-Anthony Towns   182   49.5%
Kyrie Irving   137   48.7%
Nikola Jokic   190   48.6%
Andre Drummond   190   47.4%
Bradley Beal   195   46.8%
DeMar DeRozan   191   46.4%
LaMarcus Aldridge   188   46.2%
Paul George   181   45.4%
Khris Middleton   189   44.9%
Kyle Lowry   168   44.7%
Blake Griffin   151   44.5%
Kevin Love   107   44.1%
Kemba Walker   192   43.9%
Victor Oladipo   110   43.7%
Al Horford   173   43.7%
John Wall   73   42.9%
Draymond Green   163   41.6%
Kristaps Porzingis   78   41.3%
Klay Thompson   151   40.3%
Goran Dragic   134   32.2%
D'Angelo Russell   150   31.7%

I'll just use recent teams, but you can go back further, and I'll tell you this, hindsight, and the teams having already won can also tend to make people then explain away or rationalize how one poor performance was not as poor, but it's simply hindsight and winning bias.

Siakam for example was on the Raptors championship team, he had a lot of poor and even tragic games in the playoffs, but the Raptors had a tier 1 star (Kawhi), a tier 2 star (Lowry), and a tier 3 star (Siakam), and a lot of good complimentary players. So when Siakam has 9 points and 2/10 FG vs Philly they still win. When he has 11 pts on 4/11 FG in Game 7 vs Philly, they still win. When he averages 14.5 ppg on 40% FG / 25% 3PT vs #1 seed Milwaukee who was 8-1 going into that series, they still win in 6 games, despite games of (15 pts, 6/20 FG | 8 pts, 4/9 FG | 14 pts, 5/15 FG ). They won in the finals, and he had a nice game 6, but game 2 he has 12 pts, 5/18 FG and game 5, 12 pts, 6/15 FG.

Klay Thompson in 2015, he's the Warriors 2nd option. 10/22 games his TS% is 50.1% or lower, and 6/22 games it was 44% or lower. in the last 4 games of the 2015 finals averaged 10 ppg on 37/26. The Warriors won because they had elite defense, another tier 2-ish star impact player in Green, and a high impact complimentary player in Iguodala, etc.

Kyrie is immortalized for his big shot in 2016 vs the Warriors. In 2017 playoffs, he was basically inefficient in about half of the games he played. The Cavs played 18 playoffs games, his eFG% was under 50% in 9/18 games, and under 40% in 5/18 games. Giving him the benefit of FTA's and FTM, is TS% was under 53.5% in 9/18 games and under 45% in 5/18 games.

These are all levels of consistency that Paul George can and has attained, and actually some even worse than what Paul George has done (outside of last season) and all those players mentioned were able to be second scorers on championship teams. The Clippers of course unlike some of those other teams don't have that other tier 2 or 3 star player (Green, Love, Kyrie, etc). Even the Lakers with two tier 1 stars last season, ended up getting somewhat tier 3 star like impact from Rondo in order to get them to the win.

Expectations impact reactions
My point here is that Paul George's contract, and even his consistency as a scoring option is not anything abnormal for a tier 2 star. The Lakers for example have two tier 1 stars, they are a lucky one. The Warriors with Curry and Durant had two tier 1 stars (+Klay and Draymond). The Nets have two tier 1 stars (Harden and Durant) and 1 tier 2 star in Kyrie. Milwaukee previously had one tier 1 star (Giannis) and one tier 3 (maybe 2.5) star (Middleton) plus role players, but now they have added another tier 3, maybe 2.5 star in Holiday. Denver last season beat the Clippers with a tier 1 star, and a co-star in Jamal Murray that is equally as inconsistent as Paul George.

An issue for a lot of Clippers fans could be that they were expecting tier 1 star level of production, impact and consistency from Paul George. I personally never really saw Paul George as a tier 1 star, so it's not really hitting me the same way for someone who might have done so. Last season I gave him leeway for the playoffs like I've said, since it was an extreme outlier in terms of bad production compared to his career, and there were different circumstances.

The pairing causes a greater playmaking burden on the rest of the roster than pairings with top playmakers
Of course part of the issue that Paul George and Kawhi as a pairing suffer from is that neither is a top level playmaker. They are both good and capable passers, and in different ways, but neither can (or should) have an offense run through them as the scorer and primary shot creator for others. This means that with this combination, you have a greater burden for additional playmaking than you would have if your tier 1 star was Lebron, Harden, Doncic, Curry, etc, or your tier 2/3 star was Chris Paul, Jimmy Butler, Westbrook etc, guys who can carry a lot of playmaking. Someone like Lebron who can carry playmaking complained about not enough playmaking on a team that had him and Kyrie Irving, so how much more on other teams?
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Re: Playoff Paul George Mega-thread 

Post#40 » by RingColluder » Thu May 6, 2021 4:46 am

og15 wrote:
RingColluder wrote:
og15 wrote:RingColluder has one thing wrong, the issue isn’t criticizing Paul George. I wouldn’t even call myself a “Paul George fan”, I support him because he’s on the Clippers, but criticism of Paul George means little to me. I’ve even said that at times him opening his mouth brings some of the comments he gets. The issue is if it is so constant and excessive that every game thread somehow morphs into a discussion about Paul George and how he performs in the playoffs.

One of the biggest problems being that there’s not really anything new to say anymore. Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars. Basically any team he is on has to know this, and has to be prepared for it. The coaching staff should have a plan for his bad shooting nights that isn’t simply shooting himself out of it, but of course having a plan doesn’t mean it will work or will be executed as it should be.

If we wanted to be criticize our other star too, Kawhi has had issues himself with what people might call choking, but because he’s won championships, we don’t mention it.

    When the Clippers beat the Spurs in 2015, Kawhi averaged 14 ppg on 30% FG / 20% 3PT in games 5-7 after averaging 25 ppg on 60% FG / 56% 3PT in games 1-4. Clippers won games 6 and 7 by 6 and 2 points, if Kawhi didn’t massively suck offensively in those last two games, the Spurs would have won that series. The Clippers atrocious bench and lack of depth should not have beat the Spurs, even with how well CP and BG played, Kawhi’s performance in the closing games is what opened up the opportunity.

    In 15-16 vs OKC, Spurs won game 1 in a blowout fashion, then lost in 6 games, including losing the last three. Kawhi in those last 5 games had 3 bad/inefficient games and two efficient games. Overall his TS% in the last 5 games of the series was 51.5%. They lost the last three games, Kawhi averaged 50.5 TS% / 23 ppg / 7 rpg / 3.7 apg / 4.0 spg / 44% FG / 17% 3PT. He contributed in other areas, but his scoring used up a lot of possessions, and his efficiency was very poor.

    In 16-17, he was on a roll until he got injured.

    18-19 he helped the Raptors to a championship.

    Last season, he had to carry Paul George past the first round. Second round vs Denver, he had that bad game 2 performance, then games 6 and 7 his second halves were nothing but atrocious (3/10 = 11 pts, 1/11 = 2 pts), and game 7 was trash altogether. He’s much more consistent than PG, but he’s had his up and down moments too, seemingly more on a seasons by season run basis, it’s just not really acknowledged or even known by most people
.

That’s how it is though, body of work will tend to cover up deficiencies unless you are a player who has a large amount of supporters and therefore haters also and so they will find every flaw, every bad stretch, etc. This is not to hate on Kawhi, if we look, all players, even the most revered will have some series’ that didn’t go so well or some stretches of games in a series that they just didn’t come through. No one talks about Bird having 19 pts / 6-15 in game 5 and 12 pts / 5-19 in games 6 vs Philly in 1980 or averaging 18 ppg / 41% FG vs Philly in 82, etc.

Paul George is not going to become something he isn’t, but at least what the Clippers need from him is #1, don’t have the worst playoffs of his career like he did last season, #2, be consistent enough, enough is the key word. We’re not going to get Lebron 75-80% individual production consistency from Paul George, that’s just living in fantasy, even Kawhi would have a hard time with that. What we can’t have is 4 bad games in a 7 game series for example, and since last season was the only time that’s happened for him, I’d say we shouldn’t. The question is when the inevitable 1-2 bad-atrocious efficiency games will happen in a series, and if he can give enough other impact and the rest of team can do enough when he has a below average though not terrible game.



"Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars" - This is a horrifying admission and the critical error in his ENTIRE game. We cannot give a max player a contract then like this, straight up. A max player should bring us closer to a championship not stile our cap space and make our odds of winning even shakier (even if its w a supposed higher ceiling).

And you're talking about Kawhi from 6 years ago. That's ridiculous. Kawhi has grown tremendously since then, that's the whole point of why he's considered one of the best in the game today. Paul George has regressed. Similar ages, and yet totally different stories. You're really talking about something from 6 years ago AND still choosing to ignore his monster series's against the Heat. There's a reason LeBron feared Kawhi even in the early parts of his career. He has never had that fear of PG.

And again, we're talking about a similar point from the GT. The REASON Kawhi played poorly in the later games is bc of Paul George's atrocious foul trouble. That doesn't show up on the box score but had he just played defense and used smart BBIQ (which he consistently fails to do INCLUDING in the last game) Kawhi doesn't have the issue. Kawhi played on teams with tremendous BBIQ w the Spurs and Raptors. He's getting exposed bc his max player counterpart is failing to do so.

You can find games and series where LeBron, KD and Steph Curry all "choked" too.. the bottom line is they won when they needed too and more often than not came up clutch. Just like Kawhi. Paul George is the total opposite of it. Quake Griffin had a remarkable post on it if people hadn't read it yet earlier in the thread...

And yes the issue is CONSISTENCY. Even less than that, NOT PLAYING ATROCIOUSLY IN THE PLAYOFFS. Kawhi has proven 3 times with 3 different rosters (less-so the Spurs I suppose) he can adjust and do it w virtually any sorts of teammates... Paul George has had the same type of opportunities and consistently failed to do so with 4 consecutive first round exits. That's not leadership, that's clownery.


The only thing Paul George is consistent at is being inconsistent. Your admission at the top of the post is why there's a conflict. As someone looking to win a CHAMPIONSHIP, "Paul George is not a highly consistent player when it comes to scoring. Paul George is much more liable to have an atrocious shooting game than tier #1 stars" is UNACCEPTABLE.

2nd Tier Stars Doing 2nd Tier Star Things
Well, yea, this is why Paul George is a tier 2 star and not a tier 1 star. Initial expectations seem to be a factor. This is only a massive problem if you thought he was a higher tier of player, if not, this is nothing surprising. Tier 2 stars in the NBA are still max players, because that is how the NBA salary cap structure works out. I always see fans talking about max contracts as it if is this holy grail reserved for top 5-7 players, but isn't at all. The NBA salary structure means that we're going to have around 20+ max contract level players (not all will qualify for the highest max due to years of experience).


The Max Salary Confusion

Currently in the NBA there are:
    40 players making $27+ million
    22 players making $30+ million
    14 players making $34+ million


Even some guys that could be considered tier 3 stars will get max contracts. Most teams are incapable of getting two tier 1 stars, the lucky teams that do are getting a bargain for the amount of impact/production.

Most teams, including contenders will have one tier 1 star and then either a tier 2 and/or 3 star alongside them.

Paul George this season is making $35.5 million, his contract is within $3 million of Klay Thompson ($35.4), Mike Conley ($34.5), Kemba Walker ($34.3), Tobias Harris ($34.3), Khris Middleton ($33.0). I'm not here to discuss or argue whether any of those guys are better or worse, the point is that there is nothing out of the ordinary or worthy of complaining about Paul George having a max contract.

You can even go down $5-6 million from his contract, because if you got a player making $6 million less than PG, that $6 million is on average not going to get you anything to make your team much better than having Paul George and $6 million less in salary space. In the $29 million range, you're looking at guys like Wiggins, Adams, Siakam, Love, McCollum, etc.

Inconsistency is the name of the game for tier 2/3 stars

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/1/6/21050900/most-least-consistent-nba-player
The reason a player is a 2nd option on a contender is due to their lack of production consistency.

Code: Select all

NBA All-Star Consistency Since 2017-18
Player   Games   Retained Production
LeBron James   171   60.2%
Giannis Antetokounmpo   181   59.2%
Kevin Durant   146   58.6%
Kawhi Leonard   97   57.0%
James Harden   184   56.4%
Anthony Davis   163   55.3%
DeMarcus Cousins   78   54.8%
Damian Lillard   187   53.2%
Joel Embiid   156   52.9%
Stephen Curry   122   51.8%
Ben Simmons   194   50.4%
Jimmy Butler   155   50.3%
Russell Westbrook   184   50.2%
Nikola Vucevic   160   49.5%
Karl-Anthony Towns   182   49.5%
Kyrie Irving   137   48.7%
Nikola Jokic   190   48.6%
Andre Drummond   190   47.4%
Bradley Beal   195   46.8%
DeMar DeRozan   191   46.4%
LaMarcus Aldridge   188   46.2%
Paul George   181   45.4%
Khris Middleton   189   44.9%
Kyle Lowry   168   44.7%
Blake Griffin   151   44.5%
Kevin Love   107   44.1%
Kemba Walker   192   43.9%
Victor Oladipo   110   43.7%
Al Horford   173   43.7%
John Wall   73   42.9%
Draymond Green   163   41.6%
Kristaps Porzingis   78   41.3%
Klay Thompson   151   40.3%
Goran Dragic   134   32.2%
D'Angelo Russell   150   31.7%

I'll just use recent teams, but you can go back further, and I'll tell you this, hindsight, and the teams having already won can also tend to make people then explain away or rationalize how one poor performance was not as poor, but it's simply hindsight and winning bias.

Siakam for example was on the Raptors championship team, he had a lot of poor and even tragic games in the playoffs, but the Raptors had a tier 1 star (Kawhi), a tier 2 star (Lowry), and a tier 3 star (Siakam), and a lot of good complimentary players. So when Siakam has 9 points and 2/10 FG vs Philly they still win. When he has 11 pts on 4/11 FG in Game 7 vs Philly, they still win. When he averages 14.5 ppg on 40% FG / 25% 3PT vs #1 seed Milwaukee who was 8-1 going into that series, they still win in 6 games, despite games of (15 pts, 6/20 FG | 8 pts, 4/9 FG | 14 pts, 5/15 FG ). They won in the finals, and he had a nice game 6, but game 2 he has 12 pts, 5/18 FG and game 5, 12 pts, 6/15 FG.

Klay Thompson in 2015, he's the Warriors 2nd option. 10/22 games his TS% is 50.1% or lower, and 6/22 games it was 44% or lower. in the last 4 games of the 2015 finals averaged 10 ppg on 37/26. The Warriors won because they had elite defense, another tier 2-ish star impact player in Green, and a high impact complimentary player in Iguodala, etc.

Kyrie is immortalized for his big shot in 2016 vs the Warriors. In 2017 playoffs, he was basically inefficient in about half of the games he played. The Cavs played 18 playoffs games, his eFG% was under 50% in 9/18 games, and under 40% in 5/18 games. Giving him the benefit of FTA's and FTM, is TS% was under 53.5% in 9/18 games and under 45% in 5/18 games.

These are all levels of consistency that Paul George can and has attained, and actually some even worse than what Paul George has done (outside of last season) and all those players mentioned were able to be second scorers on championship teams. The Clippers of course unlike some of those other teams don't have that other tier 2 or 3 star player (Green, Love, Kyrie, etc). Even the Lakers with two tier 1 stars last season, ended up getting somewhat tier 3 star like impact from Rondo in order to get them to the win.

Expectations impact reactions
My point here is that Paul George's contract, and even his consistency as a scoring option is not anything abnormal for a tier 2 star. The Lakers for example have two tier 1 stars, they are a lucky one. The Warriors with Curry and Durant had two tier 1 stars (+Klay and Draymond). The Nets have two tier 1 stars (Harden and Durant) and 1 tier 2 star in Kyrie. Milwaukee previously had one tier 1 star (Giannis) and one tier 3 (maybe 2.5) star (Middleton) plus role players, but now they have added another tier 3, maybe 2.5 star in Holiday. Denver last season beat the Clippers with a tier 1 star, and a co-star in Jamal Murray that is equally as inconsistent as Paul George.

An issue for a lot of Clippers fans could be that they were expecting tier 1 star level of production, impact and consistency from Paul George. I personally never really saw Paul George as a tier 1 star, so it's not really hitting me the same way for someone who might have done so. Last season I gave him leeway for the playoffs like I've said, since it was an extreme outlier in terms of bad production compared to his career, and there were different circumstances.

The pairing causes a greater playmaking burden on the rest of the roster than pairings with top playmakers
Of course part of the issue that Paul George and Kawhi as a pairing suffer from is that neither is a top level playmaker. They are both good and capable passers, and in different ways, but neither can (or should) have an offense run through them as the scorer and primary shot creator for others. This means that with this combination, you have a greater burden for additional playmaking than you would have if your tier 1 star was Lebron, Harden, Doncic, Curry, etc, or your tier 2/3 star was Chris Paul, Jimmy Butler, Westbrook etc, guys who can carry a lot of playmaking. Someone like Lebron who can carry playmaking complained about not enough playmaking on a team that had him and Kyrie Irving, so how much more on other teams?


PG was just third in MVP voting like.. 3 seasons ago? maybe 2? His "MVP" year as he calls it (imagine LeBron saying his "MVP year" was a year he got 3rd..)

I agree w what you're saying the PROBLEM is that he is an awful fit for a true superstar like Kawhi Leonard. It's like having a team with 2 PG's on max deals or two centers. SF and SG are arguably the two positions where this COULD work but even then it's tricky unless BOTH players are elite. a version of this failed w even two guard teams like the Wizards.

And no PG has NOT attained this since Klay, Kyrie, etc have PROVEN to at least make the finals and not choke under the brightest moments. You're comparing Regular Season PG who by all accounts is probably a top 12 better with PLAYOFF Paul George who is arguably one of the worst playoff performers in the NBA today at his contract.

I totally agree w your tier system but Paul George as the #2 (tier 2) option needs to sacrifice his game for the betterment of the team AND Kawhi. It's obvious who is the better player, and there's a reason we are so inconsistent. PG can play a Marcus Morris role type role shooting 8-11 instead of 20 shots and rebounding (NOT playmaking) and defending. That's great! That would be ideal for us that he picks his spots and doesn't need to be "the man" all the time.

I think the issue as it stems from last season is that PG SEES HIMSELF as a Tier 1 player on the level of Kawhi, and his teammates nor most anyone else besides a select few interesting folks see him as an obvious tier 2. Hence his ROLE and ball usage is of a tier 1 player, when it HSOULD be at a tier 2 player.

I totally agree w your playmaking comments on both.

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I'm not sure we're disagreeing? I totally agree he's a tier 2 player, BUT bc of the awkward fit with Kawhi is playing more like a tier 3 player. You don't see the need for him to CHANGE and SACRIFICE His game for the betterment of the team? Bosh did it. Kevin love did it. Wade did it. Irving (grudgingly) did it w LeBron.

PG needs to sacrifice.

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