RealGM

The same amount of turnovers or more per game than assists.

Paul George
19/20, 18/48 games 38%
20/21, 19/54 games 35%
21/22, 12/31 games 39% (career high 5.7 assists per game)
22/23, 18/56 games 32%
23/24, 33/74 games 45%

Kawhi
19/20, 12/57 games 21%
20/21, 9/52 games 17% (career high 5.2 assists per game)
22/23, 12/52 games 23%
23/24, 19/68 games 28%

James Harden
23/24, 3/72 games 4%


So this past season, for almost every other game...Paul George would have same amount of turnovers or more per game than he had assists. turnover machine Paul George. He is also #1 in nba history in making passes to the refs that are just standing out of bounds.

Phureal wrote:The same amount of turnovers or more per game than assists.

Paul George
19/20, 18/48 games 38%
20/21, 19/54 games 35%
21/22, 12/31 games 39% (career high 5.7 assists per game)
22/23, 18/56 games 32%
23/24, 33/74 games 45%

Kawhi
19/20, 12/57 games 21%
20/21, 9/52 games 17% (career high 5.2 assists per game)
22/23, 12/52 games 23%
23/24, 19/68 games 28%

James Harden
23/24, 3/72 games 4%


So this past season, for almost every other game...Paul George would have same amount of turnovers or more per game than he had assists. turnover machine Paul George. He is also #1 in nba history in making passes to the refs that are just standing out of bounds.

Yah, but the reason is that Mann can't play the point or even be the secondary ballhandler and bring up the ball. Powell either. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. George keeps getting stuck with a job he hates.

And Mann shouldn't have been starting but somebody had to do it and he was the best choice. Just when Coffey was ready to make his move into the starting lineup, he went belly up.

And Beard presented all sorts of liabilities that didn't really show up in the primary box score but he leaks points and was terrible after the ASB [minus-3.9, 3rd worst next to Plum and Coffey on 38%/30% shooting]. It's all there in the post-All Star Break numbers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?PerMode=Per100Possessions&SeasonSegment=Post%20All-Star&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746&dir=A&sort=PLUS_MINUS

This was a sorely mismatched team and although Russ had one of the best +/- at the end of the season, his other measurables were dogspit too--10 ppg on 42%/23%.

And in the playoffs, once Kawhi went MIA again--and even when he played--I don't know what to tell you. It's not even worth doing the stats. Everybody was garbage.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?PerMode=Per100Possessions&SeasonType=Playoffs&TeamID=1610612746&dir=A&sort=PLUS_MINUS

That great 26-5 run when everybody was healthy was a beautiful thing. But once Russ broke his hand and then Kawhi missed the end of the RS, it was never the same. I called it a house of cards but it was Jenga.




And you know what? I don't think Ballmer has much choice but to run it back. If George re-signs--and he will if Ballmer meets his price--I think the real question is whether to bring back Beard...at any price.

It might be better to turn the PG reins back over to Russ...and Bones. And CP3 if he's interested. When we run the numbers, it's Beard whose stats deserve the fish-eye.
______________________

ADD:

Lol CP3, did you find a time machine?

This is an odd critique. George is not a point guard or primary playmaker, why are we judging him on ast/TOV? Doesn't make much sense.

George averaged 2.1 TOV, his lowest in a long time because the team had enough playmaking help that he wasn't being put in a role beyond his abilities.

If you compare to similar type players in terms of role (more scorer/finisher than primary playmaker), Jaylen Brown, KD, Edwards, AD, you will find a similar result.

He had 3+ seasons to improve as a playmaker but he just keeps committing the same dumb turnovers over and over.
Plus, there's no accountability with PG. He's always spreading his arms wide after turnovers. There's never a my bad my bad.
There's no rhythm with PG and Zubac pick and rolls. His passes are either too low, too high, too left, too right, too slow, too fast. And fans are saying Zu has bad hands. Thank god for James Harden and his accurate passes. No problems with Zu now if we keep Harden.

Phureal wrote:He had 3+ seasons to improve as a playmaker but he just keeps committing the same dumb turnovers over and over.
Plus, there's no accountability with PG. He's always spreading his arms wide after turnovers. There's never a my bad my bad.
There's no rhythm with PG and Zubac pick and rolls. His passes are either too low, too high, too left, too right, too slow, too fast. And fans are saying Zu has bad hands. Thank god for James Harden and his accurate passes. No problems with Zu now if we keep Harden.

Yes, Paul George is not a point guard and he wasn't succesful at being developed into one at 30 plus years old when he never had to be that his whole career even before the NBA. There's nothing interesting to discuss there though. The only reason he was even being attempted as a primary playmaker was due to roster deficiency.

Phureal wrote:He had 3+ seasons to improve as a playmaker but he just keeps committing the same dumb turnovers over and over.
Plus, there's no accountability with PG. He's always spreading his arms wide after turnovers. There's never a my bad my bad.
There's no rhythm with PG and Zubac pick and rolls. His passes are either too low, too high, too left, too right, too slow, too fast. And fans are saying Zu has bad hands. Thank god for James Harden and his accurate passes. No problems with Zu now if we keep Harden.

Couldn't agree more. PG is a TO machine. That he's asked to bring the ball up is a lame excuse as much lame as the excuse that he's not a PG. He volunteers to bring the ball up so he's accountable. Period. It's not like Lue put a gun to his head. If he's on the job he's got to take the criticism.

NickP wrote:

Phureal wrote:He had 3+ seasons to improve as a playmaker but he just keeps committing the same dumb turnovers over and over.
Plus, there's no accountability with PG. He's always spreading his arms wide after turnovers. There's never a my bad my bad.
There's no rhythm with PG and Zubac pick and rolls. His passes are either too low, too high, too left, too right, too slow, too fast. And fans are saying Zu has bad hands. Thank god for James Harden and his accurate passes. No problems with Zu now if we keep Harden.

Couldn't agree more. PG is a TO machine. That he's asked to bring the ball up is a lame excuse as much lame as the excuse that he's not a PG. He volunteers to bring the ball up so he's accountable. Period. It's not like Lue put a gun to his head. If he's on the job he's got to take the criticism.

Who is the comparison?
Who exactly are we comparing him to? Paul George is not turning the ball over at any different rate from players of similar level and role in the non primary playmaker role.

George averaged 2.3 tpg in the playoffs in 37 mpg. In the regular season, 2.1 tpg in 33.8 mpg. I guess I don't understand what you guys think these kinds of players do with turnovers, maybe since the Clippers haven't had any star like wings until Kawhi and George, the perception of players like George's turnover rate is not realistic.

Kawhi is a naturally low turnovers guy as a primarly scorer, he's in the highest percentile, and it is part of why he's an elite player. So if the argument is "he's not like Kawhi", it's not a good argument, few players are.

Vs Similar Players (Not Small Guards)
Compare him to similar level and role guys like Bridges, Edwards, Durant, J.Brown, Barrett. Durant is a far better player, but another tall perimeter guy, and you would cite the same issues, ball handling turnovers, not a super accurate passer, etc.

Here's similar guys assists and turnovers, these are guys who are primarily scorer, secondarily playmaker types at the big guard or the forward position:

George: 3.5 ast / 2.1 tov / 1.67
Kawhi: 3.6 ast / 1.8 tov / 2.00
Durant: 5.0 ast / 3.3 tov / 1.52
Brown: 3.6 ast / 2.4 tov / 1.50
Edwards: 5.1 ast / 3.1 tov / 1.65
Barrett: 3.3 ast / 2.2 tov / 1.50
Bridges (Nets): 3.6 ast / 2.0 tov / 1.80
Bridges (Cha): 3.3 ast / 2.0 tov / 1.65
C.Thomas: 2.9 ast / 1.9 tov / 1.52
Kuzma: 4.2 ast / 2.7 tov / 1.56
Siakam: 4.3 ast / 1.8 tov / 2.39
Wagner: 3.7 ast / 1.9 tov / 1.95
Banchero: 5.4 ast / 3.1 tov / 1.74
Ingram: 5.7 ast / 2.5 tov / 2.28
DeRozan: 5.3 ast / 1.7 tov / 3.12

If we look at 22-23 when he did more ball handling and playmaking but not excessively too much because Westbrook was brought in:

5.1 ast / 3.1 tov / 1.65

So he still did well. At these non small guard positions with a player in a primary scorer and secondary playmaker role, anything over 1.5 you are happy with. Below not so good, and guys who are 2+ are very good, and then if you are doing 2.5+ you're exceptional and basically a point guard on the team. George is 7th out of those 15 guys listed.

As we see, there were only 4 players in that list with 2+ and only one with 2.5+, why? Because these guys aren't point guards!! lol.

George is at exactly the same level as similar players. He's not better like guys like DeRozan who is very low turnover and high assists, or a guy like Siakam or Ingram, but he's not worse than the regular 19-20+ ppg guard/forward who does some playmaking as long as you aren't asking him to be your primary playmaker and essentially point guard as in his few games in 21-22.

George this past season committed 3 more turnovers every 10 games than Kawhi, or 1 more every 3 games with the same assists per game. If that's the threshold for a guy being some massive turnover machine, that's not logical.

Feeling vs Reality
Now if you say, "well George's are worse even those the amount is the same", first of all, if its the same amount, who cares if it feels worse, that has no impact on results. Secondly, that's what we called biased sampling and confirmation bias, that's not reality, that's your perception based on remembering the worst of him due to more exposure and not watching the other guys enough as well as feeling towards the player.

Paul George brings the ball up because teams that have multiple ball handlers like to relieve other guys to preserve energy, because teams will have sets where a different guy is the primary initiator, to give the defense another look, because teams at times want to have first person to get the rebound who can handle bring the ball up to get into sets quicker.

I think og15 covered it all really well.

It is interesting that Kawhi and PG's AST/TO numbers aren't that different at all. Kawhi is definitely a better player, but he doesn't handle double teams very well sometimes. I think PG's turnovers often come when he starts to commit to something before he really knows it's there. Sometimes it leads to anticipating a good pass, other times he gets stuck and throws a bad pass. There are plays where he slithers into the paint and finishes with a beautiful little touch layup, other times he runs into a wall and has to bail out and ends up throwing a bad pass. I don't think we can only have the good plays.

I think this topic is analogous to PG's inconsistent production (Kawhi is near the top of this list, PG is on page 2):
https://edraft.com/nba/fantasy-basketball/tools/player-consistency/forward/?season=2023-2024&col1=60&col2=45&con=30
He has good games and bad games and it's easy to focus on the bad sometimes, but at the end of the day his season averages are still high level. His FG% as a Clipper is over 45%, his 3PT% is near 40%. If he could avoid the clunker games he'd be Lebron James, but in reality he's not that good.

I'm kind of over him myself, but I don't not want him on the team. I just don't want to tie us to a 4-year max deal which I think will end badly due to his age.

From the Philly papers--Re Morey, Ballmer, PG and the max. PG is OLD, let's get real here:

I’m more than skeptical that George or any other established superstar would seriously consider signing with the Sixers, at any price. That might be a good thing. George is eligible to sign a four-year contract worth $221 million. A recent report by the Ringer suggested that the Sixers could end up landing the 34-year-old star if the Clippers remain unwilling to give him that full amount. Daryl Morey has made it clear that he is operating in extreme win-now mode. Understandably so. But the Sixers should also be trying to minimize the chances of a complete and total disaster. George will be 35 years old by the end of next postseason. He would be 38 by the end of a four-year deal. Joel Embiid’s prime may be limited, but Tyrese Maxey’s prime should also be a consideration. Let’s not endanger that, too.

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/summary-judgements-orion-kerkering-strikeout-rate-20240610.html#loaded

esqtvd wrote:From the Philly papers--Re Morey, Ballmer, PG and the max. PG is OLD, let's get real here:

I’m more than skeptical that George or any other established superstar would seriously consider signing with the Sixers, at any price. That might be a good thing. George is eligible to sign a four-year contract worth $221 million. A recent report by the Ringer suggested that the Sixers could end up landing the 34-year-old star if the Clippers remain unwilling to give him that full amount. Daryl Morey has made it clear that he is operating in extreme win-now mode. Understandably so. But the Sixers should also be trying to minimize the chances of a complete and total disaster. George will be 35 years old by the end of next postseason. He would be 38 by the end of a four-year deal. Joel Embiid’s prime may be limited, but Tyrese Maxey’s prime should also be a consideration. Let’s not endanger that, too.

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/summary-judgements-orion-kerkering-strikeout-rate-20240610.html#loaded

If it comes to that, one side with 4 year $221 million and other side is somewhere 3 year $140 million(below Kawhi deal). PG13 should sign with Sixers without thinking. But I dont think either offer is on the table.

?s=19

Like I said, he's not a point guard and we're out here complaining that a guy who led the league in assists is better at passing than him lol

og15 wrote:

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Like I said, he's not a point guard and we're out here complaining that a guy who led the league in assists is better at passing than him lol

Pat Bev describing PG's passes was hilarious. Paul George turnovers are not only due to his stupid passes. He really loves to lose the ball when he splits the double team. You don't need to be a point guard to throw accurate passes and limit turnovers. Sabonis, Scottie Barnes, Jimmy Butler, Jokic just to name a few. Jimmy Butler is a good one.

Phureal wrote:

og15 wrote:

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Like I said, he's not a point guard and we're out here complaining that a guy who led the league in assists is better at passing than him lol

Pat Bev describing PG's passes was hilarious. Paul George turnovers are not only due to his stupid passes. He really loves to lose the ball when he splits the double team. You don't need to be a point guard to throw accurate passes and limit turnovers. Sabonis, Scottie Barnes, Jimmy Butler, Jokic just to name a few. Jimmy Butler is a good one.

I'm using point guard both as a fill in for point _____ and also because OP mentions how much better Harden is. All those guys mentioned are point something, point forward, point center, in essence, primary playmakers, and the fact that they can read and process the defense quickly and make accurate passes is why they are in those roles. Draymond too. DeRozan too. Sengun too,etc. Not everyone at can consistently process quickly enough at this level and you can't just make it happen by trying harder or watching more film.

The point is if you compare Paul George to unlike players who's playmaking skills are superior, yes, he's going to be worse, duh!

If you actually compare him to like players and also watch those players nightly you would see that they have the same issues, and that's why those guys aren't or are not yet (for the young developing ones who may or may not get there) primary playmakers.

Paul George is actually average to mildly above average among those types of players, but he's well below average if he's compared to different skillset players.

So when people are saying he's a "turnover machine" and saying he throws inaccurate passes, compared to whom? Well, OP mentions Harden, so that's one player he's being compared to, a guy who is a PG and elite playmaker. When we compare to like players, we remember a guy like Edwards throwing a bounce pass to Gobert on the run, that's the type of stuff guys at his level of playmaking and passing do.

Durant is another guy, if the team is without a primary initiator, his overall impact on team offense decreases, and he does not look good in the lead playmaker role, not his skillset. First 10 games of the season with Booker out all but 2 games, KD did 4.6 ast / 4.1 tov, that's the level of player PG is at when it comes to playmaking. KD is just as bad at that aspect.

Captain Ballmer wrote:

esqtvd wrote:From the Philly papers--Re Morey, Ballmer, PG and the max. PG is OLD, let's get real here:

I’m more than skeptical that George or any other established superstar would seriously consider signing with the Sixers, at any price. That might be a good thing. George is eligible to sign a four-year contract worth $221 million. A recent report by the Ringer suggested that the Sixers could end up landing the 34-year-old star if the Clippers remain unwilling to give him that full amount. Daryl Morey has made it clear that he is operating in extreme win-now mode. Understandably so. But the Sixers should also be trying to minimize the chances of a complete and total disaster. George will be 35 years old by the end of next postseason. He would be 38 by the end of a four-year deal. Joel Embiid’s prime may be limited, but Tyrese Maxey’s prime should also be a consideration. Let’s not endanger that, too.

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/summary-judgements-orion-kerkering-strikeout-rate-20240610.html#loaded

If it comes to that, one side with 4 year $221 million and other side is somewhere 3 year $140 million(below Kawhi deal). PG13 should sign with Sixers without thinking. But I dont think either offer is on the table.

Paying older players big contracts late in their career is a franchise killer. Knicks suffered for years because they felt they had to get something for Ewing rather than let him walk. They traded him and ended up passing around one bad contract after another for years. The only way I would extend an older player is if the contract is on a declining scale with performance incentives. There isn't any other team out there that is going to pay large money to PG. Clippers don't need to outbid themselves.

If he opts in, then they could trade him. Maybe they send him to South Beach for Jimmy buckets.

og15 wrote:

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Like I said, he's not a point guard and we're out here complaining that a guy who led the league in assists is better at passing than him lol

He throws some of the worst passes i have ever seen. Kawhi is not great at it either. They are all over the place. They may get to the teammate but the teammate has to adjust and then cant just shoot/drive naturally

Too bad I didn't see this in 2018. I had to see it with my own eyes how much of a fraud this guy is. Really nice of PG to play 74 games this year after avg 47 games his first 4 years with the Clippers. He'll be back to playing 50 games next year after securing his bag.

Mirjam is the Clippers beat writer for The Daily News, The Orange County Register, and all the other regional papers

The 76ers, who are among the collection of teams in contention mode, could – and pretty clearly would – offer George a max deal of four years and $212.2 million. So could the Magic, with whom George could flourish, playing relatively pressure-free basketball – and, in either scenario, paying significantly less state income tax than he would in California.

The Clippers know this. And they’re letting it be known that they’re fine with it.

https://www.ocregister.com/2024/06/18/swanson-why-paul-george-and-the-clippers-might-be-breaking-up/

Ultimately, James Harden for Paul George was the fair trade.

rzzzzz wrote:Ultimately, James Harden for Paul George was the fair trade.

Paul George, Batum, Roco, Martin, 1st, Two 2nds, Swap and an OKC first (Clippers swap to OKC for them to give Philly a first) for Harden and Tucker is actually a terrible deal.

Hindsight is 20/20. In hindsight, the team would have been better off just doing a straight up Harden for George trade (if it was actually possible) and everyone keeping their role players and picks, yikes!

At least we won't have to discuss Paul George anymore, unless people decide they have to bring up every bad game or failure he has through the season, which I hope is not the case.

First, I want to thank Paul George for his time here. Wish it would have worked out and we made it to the Finals, but the injuries the team sustained were too much to overcome. I will appreciate him for helping lead us to our 1st WCF appearance. If not for Zu's injury, I think we would have taken out Phoenix even without Kawhi.

With that said, I would like the thank the front office for making the correct decision here. Good luck to PG in Philly where he will absolutely get destroyed by the fans. He was mentally weak here and Philly will eat him alive. The Philly press will kill him if he doesn't play up to his contract.

We took a chance, gave up a ton of draft capital in the hopes of going all in. We were on our way and then Covid hit right as we were rounding into form in 2020.Time to move on.