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I like this signing. Hope everyone feels the same?

I was impressed w/ DJJ in the playoffs. Good athletic pick-up for a reasonable contract. Loved his defense on PG and SGA too. Harden will have fun lobbing to DJJ. I don't really see him as a 4 though and not sure if he's a starter.

It's been a while since we've had the full and mini MLE, so we know there are a couple more moves coming. We'll see what come next.

NickP wrote:I like this signing. Hope everyone feels the same?

Makes Mann redundant, no? Filled the same role for Dallas as Mann did here, spacefiller starter. 8-9 ppg. Better D, not as good at 3.

Harden to Jones oops should also be fun

KL2 wrote:

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$3.3 from the ntMLE
$4.7 from the BAE

$13.9 left overall before the hard cap.

Should be interesting.

esqtvd wrote:

NickP wrote:I like this signing. Hope everyone feels the same?

Makes Mann redundant, no? Filled the same role for Dallas as Mann did here, spacefiller starter. 8-9 ppg. Better D, not as good at 3.

I think one always needs redundancy with these kind of players because they usually have some little different skilsets.

For example, Mann can also be a backup ball handler, and then you can have options if a matchup isn't working for one or one's shot is off.

Jones is still not a good shooter, even if he's behind okay, so there will be times you need him out of there to get more shooting which Man certainly does better.

Jones was a 23.5 mpg starter and shot 34.3% 3PT on 4.8 attempts per 36.

Jones is also not a PF, too small, doesn't give you enough on the defensive glass and will get bodied by anyone with size, so the team still needs a big forward.

og15 wrote:

esqtvd wrote:

NickP wrote:I like this signing. Hope everyone feels the same?

Makes Mann redundant, no? Filled the same role for Dallas as Mann did here, spacefiller starter. 8-9 ppg. Better D, not as good at 3.

I think one always needs redundancy with these kind of players because they usually have some little different skilsets.

For example, Mann can also be a backup ball handler, and then you can have options if a matchup isn't working for one or one's shot is off.

Jones is still not a good shooter, even if he's behind okay, so there will be times you need him out of there to get more shooting which Man certainly does better.

Jones was a 23.5 mpg starter and shot 34.3% 3PT on 4.8 attempts per 36.

Jones is also not a PF, too small, doesn't give you enough on the defensive glass and will get bodied by anyone with size, so the team still needs a big forward.

The Mann-as-ballhandler fiction has to be dispensed with. Paul George was the secondary ballhandler behind Harden or Russ. Mann didn't cut it. And Mann shot 34.8% on even lower volume [3.9 3ptAPG/36 min] than DJJ. Yes, we still need a big forward, but not redundancy in placeholder role players; still, DJJ seems to be a bigger and better on-ball defender and a true SF.

And Kevin Porter looks to take whatever minutes call for offense. He's a real factor--19.2/5.3/5.7 on 44%/37% shooting in his last year with HOU. Those are needle-mover numbers.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/porteke02.html

esqtvd wrote:

og15 wrote:

esqtvd wrote:
Makes Mann redundant, no? Filled the same role for Dallas as Mann did here, spacefiller starter. 8-9 ppg. Better D, not as good at 3.

I think one always needs redundancy with these kind of players because they usually have some little different skilsets.

For example, Mann can also be a backup ball handler, and then you can have options if a matchup isn't working for one or one's shot is off.

Jones is still not a good shooter, even if he's behind okay, so there will be times you need him out of there to get more shooting which Man certainly does better.

Jones was a 23.5 mpg starter and shot 34.3% 3PT on 4.8 attempts per 36.

Jones is also not a PF, too small, doesn't give you enough on the defensive glass and will get bodied by anyone with size, so the team still needs a big forward.

The Mann-as-ballhandler fiction has to be dispensed with. Paul George was the secondary ballhandler behind Harden or Russ. Mann didn't cut it. And Mann shot 34.8% on even lower volume [3.9 3ptAPG/36 min] than DJJ. Yes, we still need a big forward, but not redundancy in placeholder role players; still, DJJ seems to be a bigger and better on-ball defender and a true SF.

And Kevin Porter looks to take whatever minutes call for offense. He's a real factor--19.2/5.3/5.7 on 44%/37% shooting in his last year with HOU. Those are needle-mover numbers.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/porteke02.html

Mann is not a playmaker, but he is a good enough release ball handler who can get in the lane on the weak side and make plays or catch in the middle of the floor and make good decisions.

Jones Jr. simply doesn't have that skill, hence the career 1.3 assists/36 with a high of 1.5 assists/36. Mann for his career is at 3.1 ast/36, Mann's 34.8% 3PT was a career low, while Jones' 34.4% 3PT was a career high. Mann shot 17% 3PT the first 10 games of the season, then finished shooting 38.5% 3PT in the last 61 games making at least one three in 69% of those games. Mann shot 45.5% 3PT in the playoffs.

At this point, we don't really know what kind of shooter Jones truly is in a multi year sample. Mann has a 4 year sample of 3.4 3PT / 37.4% 3PT.

You simply don't throw away options when you don't actually have a full time quality starting guy. If his was KCP, then yes, you forget about Mann, but if teams just said, "oh we got another marginal starter guy, let's get rid of all other marginal starter guys", that's how you get in trouble with your rotation.

I'm pretty sure the team is being cautious on Porter lol, there's a reason a 19/5/6 guy only got the minimum, they are not going to make other rotation player roster moves at the moment based on the logic of "well we have Porter", because they are well aware that even outside of legal issues he had locker room and attitude problems in his previous stints. (Unless of course it is a roster move where they get an upgrade, they will always do that)

og15 wrote:

esqtvd wrote:

og15 wrote:I think one always needs redundancy with these kind of players because they usually have some little different skilsets.

For example, Mann can also be a backup ball handler, and then you can have options if a matchup isn't working for one or one's shot is off.

Jones is still not a good shooter, even if he's behind okay, so there will be times you need him out of there to get more shooting which Man certainly does better.

Jones was a 23.5 mpg starter and shot 34.3% 3PT on 4.8 attempts per 36.

Jones is also not a PF, too small, doesn't give you enough on the defensive glass and will get bodied by anyone with size, so the team still needs a big forward.

The Mann-as-ballhandler fiction has to be dispensed with. Paul George was the secondary ballhandler behind Harden or Russ. Mann didn't cut it. And Mann shot 34.8% on even lower volume [3.9 3ptAPG/36 min] than DJJ. Yes, we still need a big forward, but not redundancy in placeholder role players; still, DJJ seems to be a bigger and better on-ball defender and a true SF.

And Kevin Porter looks to take whatever minutes call for offense. He's a real factor--19.2/5.3/5.7 on 44%/37% shooting in his last year with HOU. Those are needle-mover numbers.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/porteke02.html

Mann is not a playmaker, but he is a good enough release ball handler who can get in the lane on the weak side and make plays or catch in the middle of the floor and make good decisions.

Jones Jr. simply doesn't have that skill, hence the career 1.3 assists/36 with a high of 1.5 assists/36. Mann for his career is at 3.1 ast/36, Mann's 34.8% 3PT was a career low, while Jones' 34.4% 3PT was a career high. Mann shot 17% 3PT the first 10 games of the season, then finished shooting 38.5% 3PT in the last 61 games making at least one three in 69% of those games. Mann shot 45.5% 3PT in the playoffs.

At this point, we don't really know what kind of shooter Jones truly is in a multi year sample. Mann has a 4 year sample of 3.4 3PT / 37.4% 3PT.

You simply don't throw away options when you don't actually have a full time quality starting guy. If his was KCP, then yes, you forget about Mann, but if teams just said, "oh we got another marginal starter guy, let's get rid of all other marginal starter guys", that's how you get in trouble with your rotation.

I'm pretty sure the team is being cautious on Porter lol, there's a reason a 19/5/6 guy only got the minimum, they are not going to make other rotation player roster moves at the moment based on the logic of "well we have Porter", because they are well aware that even outside of legal issues he had locker room and attitude problems in his previous stints.

Nobody said to get rid of Mann before a single shot is taken. But Jones Jr. does pretty much what he does, 9 points a game. He's bigger and a better rim attacker. He doesn't shoot the 3 as well but when we're talking low-volume shooters, does it really matter? And I cannot agree Mann has any proven value as a ballhandler. PG did that job because Mann can't.

Mann got those starter minutes mostly by default. He was the best defensive fit behind 3 high-usage guys where Powell and Russ weren't. Coffey was great for awhile but dropped off precipitously after the ASB.

Now PG is gone and the equilibrium is changed. And according to the internet, since he is not a factor on offense, Mann's game but undersized D may well be replaceable by either Jones Jr's size or Porter's bigger offensive punch.

esqtvd wrote:

NickP wrote:I like this signing. Hope everyone feels the same?

Makes Mann redundant, no? Filled the same role for Dallas as Mann did here, spacefiller starter. 8-9 ppg. Better D, not as good at 3.

I like Mann, but he's our trade chip in an salary aggregation move. Feels like it's lined up for a S&T of some sorts, or getting a distressed asset for cheap.

With the addition of Dunn, trading Mann now is more logical, now you have enough options without having to rely on a guy like Porter to keep things together.

Interested to see what they do next.

I think Derrick Jones at 10M per season is a steal in this market. He's a very solid defender and lob threat, and shoots well enough to keep the defense honest. He reminds me sort of like a better version of Corey Brewer.

og15 wrote:With the addition of Dunn, trading Mann now is more logical, now you have enough options without having to rely on a guy like Porter to keep things together.

Interested to see what they do next.

May I add expiring Coffey as well to trade? Dunn - Porter Jr - D.Jones Jr - Batum - Bamba 2nd unit?

With Harden-Mann-Kawhi-X-Zubac lineup with Bones-Norm-Tucker-Russ-Coffey to go?

og15 wrote:With the addition of Dunn, trading Mann now is more logical, now you have enough options without having to rely on a guy like Porter to keep things together.

Interested to see what they do next.

Agree. Mann just became redundant. I think a trade should come down soon with Mann Coffey Powell et al. I hope we get someone decent and call it a summer.