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You know who we needed right about now.. oh wait, not again!!

Clemenza wrote:You who we needed right about now.. oh wait, not again!!

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Well, we'll see. Popovich cut BBJ at the end of camp this year and he hooked on with the Pels on a two-way. These were his first significant minutes of the year. OTOH, he's 6'6" and only 22.

The Clippers DID invest serious NBA minutes in him though, 1300 over 3 years, a provable exception to the charge they bury their young talent. Last year he shot 40% and only 27% from 3 [31% lifetime, and 32% in G-League] and worst of all, his net rating was minus-15.7 per 100 possessions, which is pretty much unplayable. 99 ORtg/117 DRtg. 13 assists vs 24 turnovers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630527?PerMode=Per100Possessions

IOW, he's a scorer but so far no 3, no D, no handle.

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:You who we needed right about now.. oh wait, not again!!

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Well, we'll see. Popovich cut BBJ at the end of camp this year and he hooked on with a two-way with the Pels. These were his first significant minutes of the year. OTOH, he's 6'6" and only 22.

The Clippers DID invest serious NBA minutes in him though, 1300 over 3 years, a provable exception to the charge they bury their young talent. Last year he shot 40% and only 27% from 3 [31% lifetime, and 32% in G-League] and worst of all, his net rating was minus-15.7 per 100 possessions, which is pretty much unplayable. 99 ORtg/117 DRtg. 13 assists vs 24 turnovers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630527?PerMode=Per100Possessions

IOW, he's a scorer but so far no 3, no D, no handle.

Yea, I would need far more sample and data to have any regret about him being let go. When we say we need scoring, it has to at least be around league average efficiency. Boston was a 48.7% TS guy as a Clipper, about 8-9% below league average, that's just too low as all ppg isn't created equal.

Low efficiency volume scoring won't make the team average more total ppg because every shot requires possessions and overall points is about points per possession, so unless it is taking away from even lower efficiency attempts (it won't), then it's not valuable.

Of course, again, we expected this team to not be so good offensively, so I guess this is par the course. On the bright side, they are 6th in Drtg so far.

They held OKC to 104.5 Ortg (113.7 Ortg coming in to the game). Of course OKC offense had done poorly against all the decent teams and are boosted by beating up ATL and Portland.

og15 wrote:

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:You who we needed right about now.. oh wait, not again!!

Read on Twitter

Well, we'll see. Popovich cut BBJ at the end of camp this year and he hooked on with a two-way with the Pels. These were his first significant minutes of the year. OTOH, he's 6'6" and only 22.

The Clippers DID invest serious NBA minutes in him though, 1300 over 3 years, a provable exception to the charge they bury their young talent. Last year he shot 40% and only 27% from 3 [31% lifetime, and 32% in G-League] and worst of all, his net rating was minus-15.7 per 100 possessions, which is pretty much unplayable. 99 ORtg/117 DRtg. 13 assists vs 24 turnovers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630527?PerMode=Per100Possessions

IOW, he's a scorer but so far no 3, no D, no handle.

Yea, I would need far more sample and data to have any regret about him being let go. When we say we need scoring, it has to at least be around league average efficiency. Boston was a 48.7% TS guy as a Clipper, about 8-9% below league average, that's just too low as all ppg isn't created equal.

Low efficiency volume scoring won't make the team average more total ppg because every shot requires possessions and overall points is about points per possession, so unless it is taking away from even lower efficiency attempts (it won't), then it's not valuable.

Of course, again, we expected this team to not be so good offensively, so I guess this is par the course. On the bright side, they are 6th in Drtg so far.

They held OKC to 104.5 Ortg (113.7 Ortg coming in to the game). Of course OKC offense had done poorly against all the decent teams and are boosted by beating up ATL and Portland.

Absolutely. And though I'm a big plus/minus guy, sometimes you gotta get points from SOMEWHERE. You can't put 5 role-players who won't shoot out there, which is why Jamal and LouWill were not seen by their teammates as selfish gunners. If they finished in the red [and they usually did], the other 4 guys were really more to blame.

Which takes us to the elephant in the room--T-Mann and only to a lesser degree, Coffey. These are the latest per-100 possession numbers:



Note that Batum doesn't score either but leads the pack [as he has his whole Clipper career]. If you're not helping to put points on the scoreboard, you gotta help keep them off.

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:You who we needed right about now.. oh wait, not again!!

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Well, we'll see. Popovich cut BBJ at the end of camp this year and he hooked on with the Pels on a two-way. These were his first significant minutes of the year. OTOH, he's 6'6" and only 22.

The Clippers DID invest serious NBA minutes in him though, 1300 over 3 years, a provable exception to the charge they bury their young talent. Last year he shot 40% and only 27% from 3 [31% lifetime, and 32% in G-League] and worst of all, his net rating was minus-15.7 per 100 possessions, which is pretty much unplayable. 99 ORtg/117 DRtg. 13 assists vs 24 turnovers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630527?PerMode=Per100Possessions

IOW, he's a scorer but so far no 3, no D, no handle.

I know he regressed last season, but with PG & Westbrook out the door and Kawhi's health forever a mystery, BBJ should've still gotten something like a team friendly 2 yr/$8 million dollar deal - 2nd year team option just for safe keeping. You developed him all this time, one year wouldn't have hurt.

Clemenza wrote:

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:You who we needed right about now.. oh wait, not again!!

Read on Twitter

Well, we'll see. Popovich cut BBJ at the end of camp this year and he hooked on with the Pels on a two-way. These were his first significant minutes of the year. OTOH, he's 6'6" and only 22.

The Clippers DID invest serious NBA minutes in him though, 1300 over 3 years, a provable exception to the charge they bury their young talent. Last year he shot 40% and only 27% from 3 [31% lifetime, and 32% in G-League] and worst of all, his net rating was minus-15.7 per 100 possessions, which is pretty much unplayable. 99 ORtg/117 DRtg. 13 assists vs 24 turnovers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630527?PerMode=Per100Possessions

IOW, he's a scorer but so far no 3, no D, no handle.

I know he regressed last season, but with PG & Westbrook out the door and Kawhi's health forever a mystery, BBJ should've still gotten something like a team friendly 2 yr/$8 million dollar deal - 2nd year team option just for safe keeping. You developed him all this time, one year wouldn't have hurt.

With the new apron rules and all that stuff, I'm not sure it is true that one year wouldn't hurt in this case. I can't remember all the numbers anymore from the off-season, but it might not have been reasonable.

14/5/4 tonight though lol

Clemenza wrote:

I know he regressed last season, but with PG & Westbrook out the door and Kawhi's health forever a mystery, BBJ should've still gotten something like a team friendly 2 yr/$8 million dollar deal - 2nd year team option just for safe keeping. You developed him all this time, one year wouldn't have hurt.

I'd say it's that his skills regressed.

IOW, he's a scorer but so far no 3, no D, no handle.

Just not what they're looking for. He didn't hit the 3 even in G-League, and the D and A/TO ratio were blecch. The new philosophy starts with D and not turning the ball over. The scoring follows--open 3s, ball movement, transition buckets.

Frankly, even in the good times--13 consecutive winning seasons--the Clippers were never designed with a philosophy. Blake and CP3 dropped into their laps. Kawhi wanted PG-13 but as it turned out, they weren't a complementary pair--they did pretty much the same thing and took turns doing it. The coaches were charged with taking them plus the best talent that fit under the salary cap and try to mold a team out of it.

That's why there's all this talk about "identity." No, we never had one. Lob City didn't really lob all that much, and if 213 was about positionless basketball, it certainly doesn't work unless you can afford 3 other guys who can play it with them.

So, if at the moment the Clippers can't get the guys they DO want, at least they're dumping the guys they don't.

og15 wrote:

Clemenza wrote:

esqtvd wrote:
Well, we'll see. Popovich cut BBJ at the end of camp this year and he hooked on with the Pels on a two-way. These were his first significant minutes of the year. OTOH, he's 6'6" and only 22.

The Clippers DID invest serious NBA minutes in him though, 1300 over 3 years, a provable exception to the charge they bury their young talent. Last year he shot 40% and only 27% from 3 [31% lifetime, and 32% in G-League] and worst of all, his net rating was minus-15.7 per 100 possessions, which is pretty much unplayable. 99 ORtg/117 DRtg. 13 assists vs 24 turnovers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630527?PerMode=Per100Possessions

IOW, he's a scorer but so far no 3, no D, no handle.

I know he regressed last season, but with PG & Westbrook out the door and Kawhi's health forever a mystery, BBJ should've still gotten something like a team friendly 2 yr/$8 million dollar deal - 2nd year team option just for safe keeping. You developed him all this time, one year wouldn't have hurt.

With the new apron rules and all that stuff, I'm not sure it is true that one year wouldn't hurt in this case. I can't remember all the numbers anymore from the off-season, but it might not have been reasonable.

14/5/4 tonight though lol

This is the best stretch of Boston's career, so far tonight:
18/3/4 on 8/12 FG, 2/4 3PT. This is the guy who was inefficient in high school, college, G-League, so it's more likely a hot streak, but hey, maybe this was the hardest working summer of his life.

A good ole fashion Lawrence Frank and Ty Lue special comin' right up!! Spurs f*cked up too.

Clemenza wrote:A good ole fashion Lawrence Frank and Ty Lue special comin' right up!! Spurs f*cked up too.

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Got the start. Played 37 minutes. Pelicans lost by 18. At home. To the Trailblazers. Just sayin'.

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:A good ole fashion Lawrence Frank and Ty Lue special comin' right up!! Spurs f*cked up too.

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Got the start. Played 37 minutes. Pelicans lost by 18. At home. To the Trailblazers. Just sayin'.

Zion, McCollum, Murray out, I think the loss is pretty irrelevant here, he's not supposed to be a star.

Boston putting up 14+ points on good efficiency 3 games in a row is actually very surprising.

They lost by 18, but were only -5 in his 37 minutes, so -13 in the other 11 minutes he didn't play, which at least means the lineups he played with were decent, and he certainly didn't limit those lineups with an efficient 20 pts, likely helped them.

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:A good ole fashion Lawrence Frank and Ty Lue special comin' right up!! Spurs f*cked up too.

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Got the start. Played 37 minutes. Pelicans lost by 18. At home. To the Trailblazers. Just sayin'.

He's starting because they have injuries is the context to all is this, but he'll stay in their rotation because of this. No matter how you slice it, it's still going to fall under the mantra of the Clipps can't and refuse to develop a soul. They wouldn't be able to develop a role of film if this was the 80's. I called it for the last two years that he would blossom as soon as he left the Clipps. It's all good tho. This might turn into the BBJ watch thread. Jordan Miller will suffer the same fate

og15 wrote:

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:A good ole fashion Lawrence Frank and Ty Lue special comin' right up!! Spurs f*cked up too.

Read on Twitter

Got the start. Played 37 minutes. Pelicans lost by 18. At home. To the Trailblazers. Just sayin'.

Zion, McCollum, Murray out, I think the loss is pretty irrelevant here, he's not supposed to be a star.

Boston putting up 14+ points on good efficiency 3 games in a row is actually very surprising.

They lost by 18, but were only -5 in his 37 minutes, so -13 in the other 11 minutes he didn't play, which at least means the lineups he played with were decent, and he certainly didn't limit those lineups with an efficient 20 pts, likely helped them.

He would be starting on the team we have now without question. I just don't understand how you have a guy in tow for four years and then ship him out when PG walks and you trade Westbrook.. But start Mann who won't even face the basket let alone shoot the ball? BBJ is exactly what this team needs right now. Could've resigned him for pennies on the dollar with team options included. Jordan Miller will be next once he leaves the Ty Lue dungeon, and what's the point in trying to sell us on Cam Christie & Trent Flowers with automatic contracts? It's truly mind boggling

Clemenza wrote:

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:A good ole fashion Lawrence Frank and Ty Lue special comin' right up!! Spurs f*cked up too.

Read on Twitter

Got the start. Played 37 minutes. Pelicans lost by 18. At home. To the Trailblazers. Just sayin'.

He's starting because they have injuries is the context to all is this, but he'll stay in their rotation because of this. No matter how you slice it, it's still going to fall under the mantra of the Clipps can't and refuse to develop a soul. They wouldn't be able to develop a role of film if this was the 80's. I called it for the last two years that he would blossom as soon as he left the Clipps. It's all good tho. This might turn into the BBJ watch thread. Jordan Miller will suffer the same fate

We'll see. Maybe it was a bucket of water in the face when Pop cut him. He couldn't even make the top 18 of a rebuilding team? It's not like NO was that particularly brilliant in throwing him a two-way and playing him now because they're desperate for bodies with injuries to Dejounte Murray, CJ McCollum, Herb Jones, Trey Murphy, and Zion Williamson.

The Clippers invested 1300 NBA minutes him and he went backwards, last year shooting 27% from 3 with almost twice as many turnovers [24] as assists [13]. Worst plus/minus on the team. Except for Jordan Miller.




Can you name anyone else who went elsewhere and thrived? The myth remains that they don't develop their own talent but the truth is the guys they draft didn't have any talent in the first place.

As for Mann, I was always accused of being a Mann hater but it was more that I found the Mann stans annoying. He was always what he is: It's not that he sucks, it's that too often he's chasing the action instead of creating it. And that doesn't cut it in the NBA, especially when you're a tweener in the first place.

So I'll root BBJ on wherever he is because he was a Clipper and seemed like a good guy, and yes we could have kept him on a team-friendly deal. But while we're not a great team, our roster is actually pretty full. Between keeping 2 of say BBJ, Jordan Miller, and KPJ on our active roster, BBJ is easily the odd man out for me.

madmaxmedia wrote:So I'll root BBJ on wherever he is because he was a Clipper and seemed like a good guy, and yes we could have kept him on a team-friendly deal. But while we're not a great team, our roster is actually pretty full. Between keeping 2 of say BBJ, Jordan Miller, and KPJ on our active roster, BBJ is easily the odd man out for me.

Well the thing is, as of right now, BBJ looks ten times better than KPJ and Mann combined. Watched the Pels/Blazers replay and BBJ looks different. He's running the offense, setting up teammates, assists, defense, three ball working, etc. Literally everything we need right now in the worst way possible. Of course I'm rooting for KPJ, but I'm seeing him get ten times the leash to play through mistakes in six games than BBJ ever got in his entire time with us. And of course I want to see Miller play, but knowing this team, he might not take off until he leaves the Clipps too.

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:

esqtvd wrote:
Got the start. Played 37 minutes. Pelicans lost by 18. At home. To the Trailblazers. Just sayin'.

He's starting because they have injuries is the context to all is this, but he'll stay in their rotation because of this. No matter how you slice it, it's still going to fall under the mantra of the Clipps can't and refuse to develop a soul. They wouldn't be able to develop a role of film if this was the 80's. I called it for the last two years that he would blossom as soon as he left the Clipps. It's all good tho. This might turn into the BBJ watch thread. Jordan Miller will suffer the same fate

We'll see. Maybe it was a bucket of water in the face when Pop cut him. He couldn't even make the top 18 of a rebuilding team? It's not like NO was that particularly brilliant in throwing him a two-way and playing him now because they're desperate for bodies with injuries to Dejounte Murray, CJ McCollum, Herb Jones, Trey Murphy, and Zion Williamson.

The Clippers invested 1300 NBA minutes him and he went backwards, last year shooting 27% from 3 with almost twice as many turnovers [24] as assists [13]. Worst plus/minus on the team. Except for Jordan Miller.




Can you name anyone else who went elsewhere and thrived? The myth remains that they don't develop their own talent but the truth is the guys they draft didn't have any talent in the first place.

As for Mann, I was always accused of being a Mann hater but it was more that I found the Mann stans annoying. He was always what he is: It's not that he sucks, it's that too often he's chasing the action instead of creating it. And that doesn't cut it in the NBA, especially when you're a tweener in the first place.

Well you know I was a BBJ and youth movement Truther, and this is playing out exactly how I pictured it. He won't become something until he leaves the Clipps. I'm seeing KPJ, who I'm rooting for, in 6-7 games get ten times the leash to play through mistakes than BBJ got his entire time with us and BBJ looks ten times better than KPJ and Mann if we want to go there. Lets face facts, Mann is starting basically because of the 39 point playoff game.

I just don't like the front office talking that "development sh*t" and trying to sell us on Flowers and Christie, and giving them guaranteed slots on the team when they won't play this year, and maybe never know how we get down. I said two years ago on hear repeatedly that Boston would shine once he leaves the Clipps and it would be a lower-level SGA situation all over again. Hot take: the same thing will happen to Jordan Miller as well. I'll be shocked if it doesn't.

-Change the thread title to "team development or BBJ Watch or something". We got a good ongoing thing happening here. Of course I'm going to watch Pels/Cavs game when I get home from the Clipps/Philly game tonight.

I didn't watch Pelican replays so I really don't have a strong opinion on BBJ either way. But here's my friendly bet- my guess is that after 30 games, KPJ will have a better RPM (or say WS) than BBJ. It's not a prediction, just something that will be interesting to keep an eye on. BBJ has an early jump on KPJ.

Asked and answered. What do you do with a shooting guard who don't D and can't shoot the 3?

FTR, here are some names that didn't do diddly elsewhere either:

Another entry in the graveyard of Clippers draft busts, including such illustrious names as:

Keon Johnson

Jason Preston

Daniel Oturu

Jay Scrubb

Mfiondu Kabengele

Jerome Robinson

Jawun Evans

Sindarius Thornwell

Brice Johnson

David Michineau

Diamond Stone

CJ Wilcox

Clemenza wrote:

esqtvd wrote:

Clemenza wrote:He's starting because they have injuries is the context to all is this, but he'll stay in their rotation because of this. No matter how you slice it, it's still going to fall under the mantra of the Clipps can't and refuse to develop a soul. They wouldn't be able to develop a role of film if this was the 80's. I called it for the last two years that he would blossom as soon as he left the Clipps. It's all good tho. This might turn into the BBJ watch thread. Jordan Miller will suffer the same fate

We'll see. Maybe it was a bucket of water in the face when Pop cut him. He couldn't even make the top 18 of a rebuilding team? It's not like NO was that particularly brilliant in throwing him a two-way and playing him now because they're desperate for bodies with injuries to Dejounte Murray, CJ McCollum, Herb Jones, Trey Murphy, and Zion Williamson.

The Clippers invested 1300 NBA minutes him and he went backwards, last year shooting 27% from 3 with almost twice as many turnovers [24] as assists [13]. Worst plus/minus on the team. Except for Jordan Miller.




Can you name anyone else who went elsewhere and thrived? The myth remains that they don't develop their own talent but the truth is the guys they draft didn't have any talent in the first place.

As for Mann, I was always accused of being a Mann hater but it was more that I found the Mann stans annoying. He was always what he is: It's not that he sucks, it's that too often he's chasing the action instead of creating it. And that doesn't cut it in the NBA, especially when you're a tweener in the first place.

Well you know I was a BBJ and youth movement Truther, and this is playing out exactly how I pictured it. He won't become something until he leaves the Clipps. I'm seeing KPJ, who I'm rooting for, in 6-7 games get ten times the leash to play through mistakes than BBJ got his entire time with us and BBJ looks ten times better than KPJ and Mann if we want to go there. Lets face facts, Mann is starting basically because of the 39 point playoff game.

I just don't like the front office talking that "development sh*t" and trying to sell us on Flowers and Christie, and giving them guaranteed slots on the team when they won't play this year, and maybe never know how we get down. I said two years ago on hear repeatedly that Boston would shine once he leaves the Clipps and it would be a lower-level SGA situation all over again. Hot take: the same thing will happen to Jordan Miller as well. I'll be shocked if it doesn't.

-Change the thread title to "team development or BBJ Watch or something". We got a good ongoing thing happening here. Of course I'm going to watch Pels/Cavs game when I get home from the Clipps/Philly game tonight.

SGA was already shining as a Clipper though, it's not that he was just let go, he was moved off the team for a specific trade reason. The star potential was already evident, what wasn't evident was superstar and MVP potential, so he's not in the same category.

I actually think the perception of young guys who leave the Clippers and become good players is quite overstated, it's no different than the amount who leave other teams and do the same.

The Clippers have benefitted from it just as much or even more. Zubac was a guy kinda dumped away, Clippers win.

Clippers didn't resign Hartenstein, Clippers loss, but that wasn't a "we don't think you're good" situation.

Clippers developed Mann and Coffey, win.

Dumped Jerome Robinson for Morris, he has done nothing.

Traded away Shamet, he's bounced around the league.

Diabete is on Charlotte in the same position

Keon Johnson is still not a rotation NBA player

Kabengele did nothing

Scrubb was the same player and he got injured

I mean, sure, if they give up on 10 guys who don't look like NBA players, they might get it wrong on one, but you get it right on 2 or 3 and you're still winning since the other 9 do actually suck (NBA wise)