GAME #41: LAL (22-17) @ LAC (23-17) —SUN 1/19 6 PM, NBA-TV

[esqtvd]

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[og15]

Harden is Clippers MVP so far

21.8 ppg, 5.8 rebs, 8 asst

He is, and the team also isn't built like that too. The team is only 2.6 pts/100 worse on offense when he's off the court.

The teams offense is bottom 10 in the league in Ortg, but their defense is top 3.

Technically the defense is the MVP of the team

Harden is helping to keep the offense adequate enough to win on the back of the defense, but the on/off Ortg suggests that his offensive impact this season is not particularly interesting.

[esqtvd]

Harden is Clippers MVP so far

21.8 ppg, 5.8 rebs, 8 asst

He is, and the team also isn't built like that too. The team is only 2.6 pts/100 worse on offense when he's off the court.

The teams offense is bottom 10 in the league in Ortg, but their defense is top 3.

Technically the defense is the MVP of the team

Harden is helping to keep the offense adequate enough to win on the back of the defense, but the on/off Ortg suggests that his offensive impact this season is not particularly interesting.

Harden's plus/minus is much improved which indicates his D has come around. And Powell and Zu are having career years on offense while DJJ isn't an offensive factor at all. It's all at least partly attributable to Beard.

Norm scores 2 ppg better. +/- is plus+0.9 better. But only 3.1 rpg and an ASST/TO ratio of 2.3 to 2.1.

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another but IMO Harden is underrated once again. Not the man he was but his production is still ace.

[og15]

Harden is Clippers MVP so far

21.8 ppg, 5.8 rebs, 8 asst

He is, and the team also isn't built like that too. The team is only 2.6 pts/100 worse on offense when he's off the court.

The teams offense is bottom 10 in the league in Ortg, but their defense is top 3.

Technically the defense is the MVP of the team

Harden is helping to keep the offense adequate enough to win on the back of the defense, but the on/off Ortg suggests that his offensive impact this season is not particularly interesting.

Harden's plus/minus is much improved which indicates his D has come around. And Powell and Zu are having career years on offense while DJJ isn't an offensive factor at all. It's all at least partly attributable to Beard.

Norm scores 2 ppg better. +/- is plus+0.9 better. But only 3.1 rpg and an ASST/TO ratio of 2.3 to 2.1.

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another but IMO Harden is underrated once again. Not the man he was but his production is still ace.

I'm actually not comparing any Clippers, I'm simply saying that this team isn't set up / hasn't performed in the fashion where anyone is the MVP.

Harden is the highest total counting statistical output guy for sure, but they are an elite defense with bad offense both with and without Harden.

The no Harden lineups are still a +0.6 pts/100. Harden's total on/off is +3.4. This is a team winning by team effort, Harden's part is important as they need a playmaker. Norm's is important as they need efficient scoring to balance out the offense from being even worse. All the point of attack defenders allow the weaker defenders to hide. The guys who can knock down the open shots keep space available. Zubac anchors the defense and controls the glass. Of course every team has multiple performers to be good, but it's just so balanced on this roster in terms of importance, it's not some Jokic and the rest situation or anything like that.

Technically NetRtg says that Zubac who doesn't have adequate backups in terms of strength and has anchored the middle is the MVP. He's at a +5.9 pts/100 and +9.1 on/off Net pts/100 , leading the team. Harden at +4.0 with +3.4 On/Off Net, Norm is at +5.4 with +5.3 on/off Net.

If Kawhi can become the star he's meant to be, you take the team from bottom offense with elite defense to top offense with elite defense...scary.

[esqtvd]

He is, and the team also isn't built like that too. The team is only 2.6 pts/100 worse on offense when he's off the court.

The teams offense is bottom 10 in the league in Ortg, but their defense is top 3.

Technically the defense is the MVP of the team

Harden is helping to keep the offense adequate enough to win on the back of the defense, but the on/off Ortg suggests that his offensive impact this season is not particularly interesting.

Harden's plus/minus is much improved which indicates his D has come around. And Powell and Zu are having career years on offense while DJJ isn't an offensive factor at all. It's all at least partly attributable to Beard.

Norm scores 2 ppg better. +/- is plus+0.9 better. But only 3.1 rpg and an ASST/TO ratio of 2.3 to 2.1.

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another but IMO Harden is underrated once again. Not the man he was but his production is still ace.

I'm actually not comparing any Clippers, I'm simply saying that this team isn't set up / hasn't performed in the fashion where anyone is the MVP.

Harden is the highest total counting statistical output guy for sure, but they are an elite defense with bad offense both with and without Harden.

The no Harden lineups are still a +0.6 pts/100. Harden's total on/off is +3.4. This is a team winning by team effort, Harden's part is important as they need a playmaker. Norm's is important as they need efficient scoring to balance out the offense from being even worse. All the point of attack defenders allow the weaker defenders to hide. The guys who can knock down the open shots keep space available. Zubac anchors the defense and controls the glass. Of course every team has multiple performers to be good, but it's just so balanced on this roster in terms of importance, it's not some Jokic and the rest situation or anything like that.

Technically NetRtg says that Zubac who doesn't have adequate backups in terms of strength and has anchored the middle is the MVP. He's at a +5.9 pts/100 and +9.1 on/off Net pts/100 , leading the team. Harden at +4.0 with +3.4 On/Off Net, Norm is at +5.4 with +5.3 on/off Net.

If Kawhi can become the star he's meant to be, you take the team from bottom offense with elite defense to top offense with elite defense...scary.

Clippers are 0-2 in the games Beard missed; 4-1 in the games Norman missed. Admittedly small samples, but just sayin'. You can replace a scorer much easier than your quarterback.

[I'm not so sure about On/Off as a stat since it includes garbage time that he has zero to do with, yes? NetRtg, I don't know how that works either. Is it a straight plus/minus or is there some other statistical mojo at work?]

[og15]

Harden's plus/minus is much improved which indicates his D has come around. And Powell and Zu are having career years on offense while DJJ isn't an offensive factor at all. It's all at least partly attributable to Beard.

Norm scores 2 ppg better. +/- is plus+0.9 better. But only 3.1 rpg and an ASST/TO ratio of 2.3 to 2.1.

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another but IMO Harden is underrated once again. Not the man he was but his production is still ace.

I'm actually not comparing any Clippers, I'm simply saying that this team isn't set up / hasn't performed in the fashion where anyone is the MVP.

Harden is the highest total counting statistical output guy for sure, but they are an elite defense with bad offense both with and without Harden.

The no Harden lineups are still a +0.6 pts/100. Harden's total on/off is +3.4. This is a team winning by team effort, Harden's part is important as they need a playmaker. Norm's is important as they need efficient scoring to balance out the offense from being even worse. All the point of attack defenders allow the weaker defenders to hide. The guys who can knock down the open shots keep space available. Zubac anchors the defense and controls the glass. Of course every team has multiple performers to be good, but it's just so balanced on this roster in terms of importance, it's not some Jokic and the rest situation or anything like that.

Technically NetRtg says that Zubac who doesn't have adequate backups in terms of strength and has anchored the middle is the MVP. He's at a +5.9 pts/100 and +9.1 on/off Net pts/100 , leading the team. Harden at +4.0 with +3.4 On/Off Net, Norm is at +5.4 with +5.3 on/off Net.

If Kawhi can become the star he's meant to be, you take the team from bottom offense with elite defense to top offense with elite defense...scary.

Clippers are 0-2 in the games Beard missed; 4-1 in the games Norman missed. Admittedly small samples, but just sayin'. You can replace a scorer much easier than your quarterback.

[I'm not so sure about On/Off as a stat since it includes garbage time that he has zero to do with, yes? NetRtg, I don't know how that works either. Is it a straight plus/minus or is there some other statistical mojo at work?]

On/off is just +/- but normalized per possession (they use per 100 possessions of course so the number isn't decimals). When you have enough of a sample size, the garbage time is statistically irrelevant.

So On would be the teams +/- per 100 possessions with the player. Off would be the teams +/- per 100 possessions when the player is off the court.

NetRtg is just (pts per possession on) - (pts per possession off).

So if the team has a +4 pts/100 with you, and a +1 pts/100 without you, you're NetRtg is +3 pts/100. The difference between how good the team is with you minutes without you per possession.

Pts/100 is better than +/- because lower minute positive players aren't punished if one is doing a comparison.

In raw +/-, the more minutes I play in a game the team is winning, the higher my +/-, but that doesn't mean I was more impactful than someone playing less.

For example if you are +2 every 10 minutes over a large span and play 27 mpg, your average will be +5.4. If another guy is also +2 every 10 minutes over a large sample, but plays 18 mpg, his average will be +3.6.

Now if we just look at raw +/-, we'll say, player A is +5.4 and player B is +3.6, so the team does better when player A is on, but per minute they are actually doing the same thing, player A just plays more.

So out conclusion based on not taking to account minutes would be inaccurate. Per 100 possessions takes the minutes problem away and does +/- per possession so it's normalized.

[esqtvd]

I'm actually not comparing any Clippers, I'm simply saying that this team isn't set up / hasn't performed in the fashion where anyone is the MVP.

Harden is the highest total counting statistical output guy for sure, but they are an elite defense with bad offense both with and without Harden.

The no Harden lineups are still a +0.6 pts/100. Harden's total on/off is +3.4. This is a team winning by team effort, Harden's part is important as they need a playmaker. Norm's is important as they need efficient scoring to balance out the offense from being even worse. All the point of attack defenders allow the weaker defenders to hide. The guys who can knock down the open shots keep space available. Zubac anchors the defense and controls the glass. Of course every team has multiple performers to be good, but it's just so balanced on this roster in terms of importance, it's not some Jokic and the rest situation or anything like that.

Technically NetRtg says that Zubac who doesn't have adequate backups in terms of strength and has anchored the middle is the MVP. He's at a +5.9 pts/100 and +9.1 on/off Net pts/100 , leading the team. Harden at +4.0 with +3.4 On/Off Net, Norm is at +5.4 with +5.3 on/off Net.

If Kawhi can become the star he's meant to be, you take the team from bottom offense with elite defense to top offense with elite defense...scary.

Clippers are 0-2 in the games Beard missed; 4-1 in the games Norman missed. Admittedly small samples, but just sayin'. You can replace a scorer much easier than your quarterback.

[I'm not so sure about On/Off as a stat since it includes garbage time that he has zero to do with, yes? NetRtg, I don't know how that works either. Is it a straight plus/minus or is there some other statistical mojo at work?]

On/off is just +/- but normalized per possession (they use per 100 possessions of course so the number isn't decimals). When you have enough of a sample size, the garbage time is statistically irrelevant.

So On would be the teams +/- per 100 possessions with the player. Off would be the teams +/- per 100 possessions when the player is off the court.

NetRtg is just (pts per possession on) - (pts per possession off).

So if the team has a +4 pts/100 with you, and a +1 pts/100 without you, you're NetRtg is +3 pts/100. The difference between how good the team is with you minutes without you per possession.

Pts/100 is better than +/- because lower minute positive players aren't punished if one is doing a comparison.

In raw +/-, the more minutes I play in a game the team is winning, the higher my +/-, but that doesn't mean I was more impactful than someone playing less.

For example if you are +2 every 10 minutes over a large span and play 27 mpg, your average will be +5.4. If another guy is also +2 every 10 minutes over a large sample, but plays 18 mpg, his average will be +3.6.

Now if we just look at raw +/-, we'll say, player A is +5.4 and player B is +3.6, so the team does better when player A is on, but per minute they are actually doing the same thing, player A just plays more.

So out conclusion based on not taking to account minutes would be inaccurate. Per 100 possessions takes the minutes problem away and does +/- per possession so it's normalized.

If it includes garbage time that the player had nothing to do with, including players he doesn't usually share the court with, it can't be "normalized." [There IS a stat out there that excludes garbage time but I forget what it's called.]

I think we've hit a wall here. I respect Norman, but I'd rather take my chances replacing his scoring than Beard's QBing. All things being equal, it's a question of function and our roster makeup--we don't have a real backup PG: KPJ is our #2 assist guy--than of brute numbers.
_______________________________
ADD @ OG:

The funny thing is, the thread starter of Harden-as-MVP was just a placeholder that I replaced later, just a by-the-by. And it turned into thread in itself, lol. It was the by-product of a go-round I had going on Twitter.

And BTW, though I've long used per-36 minutes when available, following your example I HAVE replaced per-game with per-100 possessions as my +/- standard except when production is a factor, which it sometimes is. I don't care about FG% so much if a guy won't shoot or puts up a lot of empty minutes like Mann.

[Although a lot of fans are finally getting wise. A plus/minus of +2 is nice but if you're not contributing points, rebs or assists, you're freeloading. Which is fine for a 35-yr-old Nic Batum at 6'8"; not so much for an undersized swingman making $15M. Somebody is picking up your slack.]

[KL2]

I know guys are tired and banged up a little but it feels like posturing to have all these guys questionable.

Just win. I hate losing to the Lakers.

[Clemenza]

Gotta beat the Lakers. We need this one badly. Also trying to solidify our new arena and home court advantage. Keep those Laker jerseys out of the wall!!

[clipsfever]

Harden, Zu, Dunn and Norm all available

[LamarWho]

Y'all know the script, this will be a close one by the 4th.

[KL2]

Would be nice to put this away in the 3rd with Leonard still not playing 4th quarter minutes. Looks like he has about 8 minutes left to play.

Everyone contributing in one way or another.

[clipsfever]

The meta coaching decisions Lu will have to make this week will be interesting- how many minutes will the deep bench be able to carry

[KL2]

Leonard looks as good as ever. I understand no b2b but surely the minutes restriction can be bumped up a few more minutes soon?

Need to keep our foot on their throats.

Went to hell when Leonard sat. Yikes.

[KingCrimzzon]

Game getting scary... hold on guys please!!!!

[KL2]

Way to right the ship but still 6 minutes left. Come on guys.

[LamarWho]

Leonard looks as good as ever. I understand no b2b but surely the minutes restriction can be bumped up a few more minutes soon?

Need to keep our foot on their throats.

Went to hell when Leonard sat. Yikes.

I have never seen a strict zero mins 4th quarter for any players coming back from an injury. But at least he looked good the last 2 games.

[KL2]

Why do these games have to be like this?

[MartinToVaught]

Great win and a dominant performance by Zu!

[KingCrimzzon]

Why do these games have to be like this?

They like to give us heart test
But in all seriousness, strong performance from Kawhi and its good to know the team has a system (pun intended) without him. They overall played good defense and were ok offensively. More importantly though, beat LAL in the first game at INTUIT!!!