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stan francisco wrote:I think Adou is our new Vando, but better. A defensive lineup of, later in the season…
Vincent, Smart, Adou, LaRavia, Kleber should get some stops.
Anderson Hunt wrote:stan francisco wrote:I think Adou is our new Vando, but better. A defensive lineup of, later in the season…
Vincent, Smart, Adou, LaRavia, Kleber should get some stops.
In what ways is Thiero better than Vanderbilt right now?
I'll let you answer, but honestly, I think you're either being hyperbolic or you simply mean that Thiero will be better one day.
stan francisco wrote:Anderson Hunt wrote:stan francisco wrote:I think Adou is our new Vando, but better. A defensive lineup of, later in the season…
Vincent, Smart, Adou, LaRavia, Kleber should get some stops.
In what ways is Thiero better than Vanderbilt right now?
I'll let you answer, but honestly, I think you're either being hyperbolic or you simply mean that Thiero will be better one day.
I don’t think he’s there yet, correct. But I really do think we have a gem here, the kind who will even contribute in his first year. I expect it soon.
I would not be surprised if he takes away most of Vando’s minutes pre deadline. I’m a Vando fan, especially versus GSW snd DEN when he’s a pest for Curry and Murray.
But Adou’s focus and head for the game is and will be on an elite level. Vando’s, not as much. Just hoping Adou gets into the NBA groove really soon so we can see him getting some minutes.
Anderson Hunt wrote:LeGoat23 wrote:Vando isn't an elite wing defender. He's mid/poor at 1v1 POA, and constantly makes mental mistakes(overhelp/missing rotations) that compromise the team's defensive scheme. For a guy with negative offensive impact, you just can't have that on the floor.
He's an elite passing lanes interrupter & rebounder. That's it. Too small a skill set to deserve any discussion.
It's difficult to argue defense, but although I agree with your assessment that he's elite playing passing lanes and rebounding, I disagree with you suggesting that he's "mid" as a point of attack defender and one on one defender.
Before I go on, I must concede that because Vanderbilt doesn't get many minutes, I can't really argue against any notion that Vanderbilt doesn't defend like he used to two years ago. I frankly don't see him enough of late to properly assess him as a defender after his foot surgeries, so if you're making the argument that he doesn't defend one on one or at the point of attack like he used to, I can't argue against it. I just don't have enough film/observation to argue against that idea.
To me, he seems healthy. If he defends like he did two years ago, he absolutely is a well above-average POA defender.
What's my proof? My eyes. He has fantastic lateral quickness, anticipation, speed, and effort.
My eyes tell me one thing, then the opinions of innumerable scouting reports all tell me the same thing.
The reality is that when he played under a coach (Ham) who valued hustle guys and got opportunities to prove his defensive impact, Vanderbilt did just that, but under a coach who doesn't value scrappiness and doesn't scheme to accentuate Vanderbilt's gifts (namely one on one defense instead of switch-heavy), Vanderbilt doesn't look as good.
Maybe you see him getting into the games too exuberant, too eager to make plays, so he commits too many fouls. I see that too in his limited minutes, but that can be cleaned up with a defined role and expectation.
Vanderbilt needs to be nurtured. He needs to be given an opportunity to prove himself defensively and offensively.
When given an opportunity, 20 minutes a game as part of a defined role, he's shown thus far in his career that he's a well above average defender who has tremendously impacted the game with his defensive pedigree and hustle.
Anderson Hunt wrote:stan francisco wrote:I think Adou is our new Vando, but better. A defensive lineup of, later in the season…
Vincent, Smart, Adou, LaRavia, Kleber should get some stops.
In what ways is Thiero better than Vanderbilt right now?
I'll let you answer, but honestly, I think you're either being hyperbolic or you simply mean that Thiero will be better one day.
LeGoat23 wrote:Anderson Hunt wrote:LeGoat23 wrote:Vando isn't an elite wing defender. He's mid/poor at 1v1 POA, and constantly makes mental mistakes(overhelp/missing rotations) that compromise the team's defensive scheme. For a guy with negative offensive impact, you just can't have that on the floor.
He's an elite passing lanes interrupter & rebounder. That's it. Too small a skill set to deserve any discussion.
It's difficult to argue defense, but although I agree with your assessment that he's elite playing passing lanes and rebounding, I disagree with you suggesting that he's "mid" as a point of attack defender and one on one defender.
Before I go on, I must concede that because Vanderbilt doesn't get many minutes, I can't really argue against any notion that Vanderbilt doesn't defend like he used to two years ago. I frankly don't see him enough of late to properly assess him as a defender after his foot surgeries, so if you're making the argument that he doesn't defend one on one or at the point of attack like he used to, I can't argue against it. I just don't have enough film/observation to argue against that idea.
To me, he seems healthy. If he defends like he did two years ago, he absolutely is a well above-average POA defender.
What's my proof? My eyes. He has fantastic lateral quickness, anticipation, speed, and effort.
My eyes tell me one thing, then the opinions of innumerable scouting reports all tell me the same thing.
The reality is that when he played under a coach (Ham) who valued hustle guys and got opportunities to prove his defensive impact, Vanderbilt did just that, but under a coach who doesn't value scrappiness and doesn't scheme to accentuate Vanderbilt's gifts (namely one on one defense instead of switch-heavy), Vanderbilt doesn't look as good.
Maybe you see him getting into the games too exuberant, too eager to make plays, so he commits too many fouls. I see that too in his limited minutes, but that can be cleaned up with a defined role and expectation.
Vanderbilt needs to be nurtured. He needs to be given an opportunity to prove himself defensively and offensively.
When given an opportunity, 20 minutes a game as part of a defined role, he's shown thus far in his career that he's a well above average defender who has tremendously impacted the game with his defensive pedigree and hustle.
Cardiobilt needs to be in China if he needs to be nurtured & micro managed on a 12m/yr deal!
NBA is not for 8 year old vets to be taught basic rotations defensive coverages over and over, specially when that's the end where your entire value is supposed to lie. He's just not an overall positive impact player at this level.
Some of his stats from BBI -
Perimeter Isolation Defense - B-
Ball Screen Navigation - C-
Off Ball Chaser - C
Pick Pocket Rating - C
Passing Lane Defense - B
3PT Contests Per 75 Possessions - F
Matchup Adjusted Defensive Grade - C+
Not elite at a single thing.. lol. I can bet the Passing Lane D grade used to be better and probably hit this year because of the small sample, but his Perimeter Iso is also way better than I remember seeing in the past.
Not a big fan of JJ, I am happy with his ability to outrightly reject trash unlike Ham.
Anderson Hunt wrote:Those stats are very, very interesting, but you have to contextualize them.
I'd be interested to see those same stats for each year of his career, especially the year he started on the Lakers and was given a big role.
It'll be those numbers and watching him play that'll tell the real story about his defense.
As of now though, when he's playing sporadic minutes under a coach that considers him an afterthought, you can't take those stats to the bank. Again, stats must be contextualized.
I respect your strong take though. You're essentially calling Vanderbilt an average defender, right? It seems that that is your stance, and it's a stance I disagree with.
My stance: Vanderbilt is an above-average defensive player with clear potential to be elite.
This is where we differ. For what it's worth, I think the world would agree with me, but again I respect you seeing things with your own eyes and not following popular opinion.
LeGoat23 wrote:Anderson Hunt wrote:Those stats are very, very interesting, but you have to contextualize them.
I'd be interested to see those same stats for each year of his career, especially the year he started on the Lakers and was given a big role.
It'll be those numbers and watching him play that'll tell the real story about his defense.
As of now though, when he's playing sporadic minutes under a coach that considers him an afterthought, you can't take those stats to the bank. Again, stats must be contextualized.
I respect your strong take though. You're essentially calling Vanderbilt an average defender, right? It seems that that is your stance, and it's a stance I disagree with.
My stance: Vanderbilt is an above-average defensive player with clear potential to be elite.
This is where we differ. For what it's worth, I think the world would agree with me, but again I respect you seeing things with your own eyes and not following popular opinion.
I don't sub BBI anymore. Had to ask a friend. But I can promise you it's been very similar for his entire time here. His switching has been D- in the past, but he's worked on it since.
I'll clarify my stance on Vando - I think he's an above average defender. Just not anywhere close to elite as some people like to propose without data. I am dead certain there's not a single data point that will prove me wrong. ZERO All Defense votes in his career. I think he gets too much love because he's kinda emblematic of the escape from Westbrook hell.. lol
Above average anything with a negative on the other side isn't good enough to survive in this league, so I look at him as a salary dump.
And, I'm not interested in the potential of a 8 year vet on a 48m deal. Theiro has my patience and appreciation for potential. Vando's window passed years ago.