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"Kobe Shooting Too Much" Thread

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Sedale Threatt
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Post#101 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:21 pm

Agreed, Kobe has enough responsibilities without being expected to create for his teammates. He usually gets around five assists per game, which is outstanding for a shooting guard.

That said, I do expect him to give it up when he's double teamed, which I didn't see a whole lot of the other night. Others who have stated their case in this thread saw something else, so perhaps I am wrong. I certainly didn't rewatch the game and chart everything.

Again, Jackson provided the best assessment of what went on: Kobe's teammates didn't hold up their end of the bargain, and he was more than happy -- perhaps too much so? -- to pick up the slack.

I agree wholeheartedly with most everyone else that it's an incredible luxury to have a player who can do so. But I also agree with Jackson in that we need much more balance -- not to mention defense, which was reasons 1, 2 and 3 why we nearly lost the other night.
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Post#102 » by milesfides » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:51 pm

Considering that:

1. Kobe's trade demands were largely a result of not having enough help
2. Kobe's demonstration that he's willing to pass and sacrifice his game

I'm still not sure why we're debating this. Is Kobe the cookie monster? Well, Odom and Walton had awful shooting nights and Kwame was a heart attack every time he touched the ball.

Kobe took over.

If some of you are worried that this is going to be a problem, I suggest re-examining recent history.
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Post#103 » by LLcoleJ » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:08 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
Joe Kleazy wrote:With all the complaining....


I'm not sure there's been as much complaining as level-headed discussion regarding how our offense might function over the next few months with our budding All-Star center on the sideline.

Perhaps Seattle was just an abberation, and Kobe did what had to be done to win on one particular evening.

Or perhaps it was a sign of things to come, which would indicate that we're not nearly as deep or good as we might think.

After one game, who knows which? But either way, it's definitely something that bears watching.

I thought Jackson struck the right note today in the Times by putting the onus on both Kobe and his teammates:

"He had some teammates who came out shy. If you really give Kobe the latitude and you're bashful about shooting the ball, he's going to take up all the rest of the shots."

Kind of like having a limited amount of food at a crowded dinner table. You better stick your nose in there and get your fill, or big brother's going to devour everything in sight.

As Tommy just pointed out, it's the eternal chicken-or-the-egg argument: were Kobe's teammates cowed by his aggressiveness, or was he simply doing what needed to be done to win the game on a night nobody else wanted to step up?

Everybody has their own opinion on that.

One thing that's indisputable: It's up to everybody, not just Kobe, to make sure we don't need him shooting 35 or 40 times to win. Because that's never going to get us anywhere in the long run.


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Post#104 » by Deuce33 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:34 pm

4th game in 5 nights on the road, with your second option going down the night before. Just think about that for a sec...we SHOULD have LOST that game.
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Post#105 » by ock » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:08 pm

everyone is ignoring the fact that...

THAT WAS A HELLUVA ENTERTAINING GAME!!!!

c'mon, lighten up, everyone. there is too much drama on the Lakers, and even on this board. i agree with everyone. there are valid points on every side. but you know what, ultimately it came down to kobe's decision, and how prepared his teammates were. i doubt kobe will be like that every game. and WE WON.
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Post#106 » by snaquille oatmeal » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:40 pm

milesfides wrote:Considering that:

1. Kobe's trade demands were largely a result of not having enough help
2. Kobe's demonstration that he's willing to pass and sacrifice his game

I'm still not sure why we're debuting this. Is Kobe the cookie monster? Well, Odom and Walton had awful shooting nights and Kwame was a heart attack every time he touched the ball.

Kobe took over.

If some of you are worried that this is going to be a problem, I suggest re-examining recent history.
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Post#107 » by kobe#8 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:12 pm

Keep shooting captain!
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Post#108 » by milesfides » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:27 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:Kind of like having a limited amount of food at a crowded dinner table. You better stick your nose in there and get your fill, or big brother's going to devour everything in sight.


A better analogy? A hot dog eating contest, team competition. Kobe is Kobayashi, on a team of Somalians. You can't eat the hot dog? Well, he'll eat it for you, for the win.

As Tommy just pointed out, it's the eternal chicken-or-the-egg argument: were Kobe's teammates cowed by his aggressiveness, or was he simply doing what needed to be done to win the game on a night nobody else wanted to step up?


That's not really what it was. Were Odom and Walton cowed by Kobe's aggressiveness? Odom took plenty of shots, 4 more than his season average, he just didn't make them. Walton didn't take many shots, but then again, he usually doesn't, and he was particularly off, so what's there to analyze? And Kwame - Kwame wasn't cowed. He was just inept.

One thing that's indisputable: It's up to everybody, not just Kobe, to make sure we don't need him shooting 35 or 40 times to win. Because that's never going to get us anywhere in the long run.


Of course, this is a team game. Getting everybody involved is a good thing. But it's also Luke and Odom's responsibility to make themselves threats. Complaining about the lack of balanced scoring is really obfuscating the real problem here. Luke, Kwame, and Odom aren't reliable scorers, aren't good shooters. That's why Kobe had to take so many shots. Some are pretending that Kobe played keep away from his teammates. Walton and Odom had over 10+ and 7 assists each. They were very involved in the game, just not in a scoring capacity, because they're just not talented scorers.

Reducing the situation as a chicken-or-egg paradox is simply ignoring the larger problem: the lack of scoring talent. Surround Kobe with capable players, and he plays a balanced game. We've seen in historically throughout his career, whether as a Laker, All-star, or Olympian.
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Post#109 » by Mindflayer » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:24 am

I was shocked that Kobe had 44 shots against Seattle. It did not feel like that many. I don't even remember more than 2 "Kobe why are you shooting that shot?" during the game. PJ is right; its time for other Lakers to feed at the table.
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Post#110 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:50 am

milesfides wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
A better analogy? A hot dog eating contest, team competition. Kobe is Kobayashi, on a team of Somalians. You can't eat the hot dog? Well, he'll eat it for you, for the win.

That's not really what it was. Were Odom and Walton cowed by Kobe's aggressiveness? Odom took plenty of shots, 4 more than his season average, he just didn't make them. Walton didn't take many shots, but then again, he usually doesn't, and he was particularly off, so what's there to analyze? And Kwame - Kwame wasn't cowed. He was just inept.

Of course, this is a team game. Getting everybody involved is a good thing. But it's also Luke and Odom's responsibility to make themselves threats. Complaining about the lack of balanced scoring is really obfuscating the real problem here. Luke, Kwame, and Odom aren't reliable scorers, aren't good shooters. That's why Kobe had to take so many shots. Some are pretending that Kobe played keep away from his teammates. Walton and Odom had over 10+ and 7 assists each. They were very involved in the game, just not in a scoring capacity, because they're just not talented scorers.

Reducing the situation as a chicken-or-egg paradox is simply ignoring the larger problem: the lack of scoring talent. Surround Kobe with capable players, and he plays a balanced game. We've seen in historically throughout his career, whether as a Laker, All-star, or Olympian.


A fair assessment; I can't argue with much of this.

I still don't think it's necessary for one player to shoot to such excess, regardless of the circumstances, and Phil agreed as much. Surely we can't be as highly rated as we are in various offensive categories if the loss of one player, even one as good as Andrew, would render us so one-dimensional.

But in the end, there were much bigger problems than Kobe's shot total. It was one game, a game we ended up winning thanks in large part to him. So I agree with you on at least one point that it's probably wiser to not make too much of a big deal out of it. I imagine it will be a subject of much scrutiny over the next month or two, so let's see what happens.
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Post#111 » by Sedale Threatt » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:08 am

I guess we are that one-dimensional. I take it all back. What the hell do I know about basketball?
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Post#112 » by spurket » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:03 pm

milesfides wrote:Luke, Kwame, and Odom aren't reliable scorers, aren't good shooters. That's why Kobe had to take so many shots.


Are you sure about that?

eFG% through January 17

Kobe: .488
Odom: .488
Walton: .487
Kwame: .514

Luke, Kwame, and Odom combined have a higher eFG% than Kobe.
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Post#113 » by spurket » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:05 pm

stats through January 17

fg%
Kobe: .443
Lakers (minus Kobe AND Bynum): .460

3pt%
Kobe: .348
Lakers (minus Kobe AND Bynum): .373

2pt%
Kobe: .476
Lakers (minus Kobe AND Bynum): .491
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Post#114 » by milesfides » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:57 pm

That's irrelevant - the only stats that matter are the stats produced since Bynum's injury, since we're trying to figure out how our team should play in his absence.

His injury obviously affected our offense; we don't have a post presence. That's putting pressure on our players to make shots and only three players have consistently made shots in the past 2 games: Kobe, Farmar, and Turiaf.

Since Bynum went out:

Walton: 10% fg, 0% 3pt
Odom: 29% fg, 0% 3pt
Ariza: 36% fg, 25% 3pt
Fisher: 38% fg, 60% 3pt
Kwame: 50% fg, 60% ft, 4.5 turnovers

Kobe: 47% fg, 33% 3pt
Farmar: 61% fg, 50% 3pt
Turiaf: 58% fg

The only shock is Fisher, who most likely will pick it up. He's too established a shooter to go through a prolonged slump.

Otherwise, it's the same usual suspects who are struggling - the guys who can't shoot or score consistently.

The primary fallacy with looking at shooting percentages solely to determine who can shoot is that it ignores context. For example, you cited Kwame Brown's efg. It's very high, among the highest on our team. So, should we run our offense through Kwame? As we've seen last night, that's a ludicrous proposition. The only reason that his percentage is high while his scoring average is low is that he only takes shots that are point blank at the rim. So he's essentially missing half of his dunk shots, which is terrible. Despite his high fg% compared to other players, he's unreliable as a scorer.

Same with Walton. Walton's shooting percentages mostly came as a wide open shooter due to the attention Kobe and Bynum draws. His shooting percentages are thus in the context of a spot up shooter, wide open cutter, etc. Now that the pressure is on him to create his own shot or to shoot under pressure, he doesn't take or make shots.

Odom also benefited from the attention that Kobe and Bynum drew. Now that the onus is on him to be a secondary scorer, he's not close to as efficient as he was, simply because he's not that talented offensively. He's had trouble his entire stint as a Laker (and perhaps his career) of being a reliable and efficient high-volume scorer.

That's why looking at stats without visual corroboration or considering context is a fool's errand.
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