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Who is the best scorer in laker history?

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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#21 » by Anklebreaker702 » Sun Oct 5, 2008 7:27 am

tkb wrote:
anklebreaker702 wrote:This ones easy for me, THE CAP! It gets confusing because we are mostly tying the debate down to points in a Laker uniform but only the logo Kobe & Elgin (i think) spent their entire careers with the Lakers. The Cap in his prime was unstoppable & had a shot that could not be blocked & you could go to him in the clutch with last shot or free throws. I'm sure Detroit remembers how clutch of a free throw shooter he was


Cap in his prime was unstoppable, and probably better than any Laker ever. Problem though is that prime Cap wasn't a Laker.

How do you figure? 5 out of 6 of his MVP's were as a Laker & 5 of his 6 titles were as a Laker. You huys seem to forget he only played the first 6 of his 20 year career with the Bucks so are you saying he was only in his prime his 1st 6 years of his career? I don't have a stat sheet in front of me but i'm willing to bet he led the league in scoring a few times as a Laker as well
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#22 » by Anklebreaker702 » Sun Oct 5, 2008 7:37 am

anklebreaker702 wrote:
tkb wrote:
anklebreaker702 wrote:This ones easy for me, THE CAP! It gets confusing because we are mostly tying the debate down to points in a Laker uniform but only the logo Kobe & Elgin (i think) spent their entire careers with the Lakers. The Cap in his prime was unstoppable & had a shot that could not be blocked & you could go to him in the clutch with last shot or free throws. I'm sure Detroit remembers how clutch of a free throw shooter he was


Cap in his prime was unstoppable, and probably better than any Laker ever. Problem though is that prime Cap wasn't a Laker.

How do you figure? 5 out of 6 of his MVP's were as a Laker & 5 of his 6 titles were as a Laker. You huys seem to forget he only played the first 6 of his 20 year career with the Bucks so are you saying he was only in his prime his 1st 6 years of his career? I don't have a stat sheet in front of me but i'm willing to bet he led the league in scoring a few times as a Laker as well

Well put telsa, i didnt see all of your stats before i fired back lol
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#23 » by tkb » Sun Oct 5, 2008 9:09 am

anklebreaker702 wrote:
tkb wrote:
anklebreaker702 wrote:This ones easy for me, THE CAP! It gets confusing because we are mostly tying the debate down to points in a Laker uniform but only the logo Kobe & Elgin (i think) spent their entire careers with the Lakers. The Cap in his prime was unstoppable & had a shot that could not be blocked & you could go to him in the clutch with last shot or free throws. I'm sure Detroit remembers how clutch of a free throw shooter he was


Cap in his prime was unstoppable, and probably better than any Laker ever. Problem though is that prime Cap wasn't a Laker.

How do you figure? 5 out of 6 of his MVP's were as a Laker & 5 of his 6 titles were as a Laker. You huys seem to forget he only played the first 6 of his 20 year career with the Bucks so are you saying he was only in his prime his 1st 6 years of his career? I don't have a stat sheet in front of me but i'm willing to bet he led the league in scoring a few times as a Laker as well


First of all, Kareem won 3 of his 6 MVPs as a Buck, and not 1 like you posted.

His prime as far as scoring goes was in Milwaukee, which is what we're debating here. We're not talking about his prime as far as overall game goes. You can go check if you want to, but Kareem never lead the league in scoring as a Laker. He was 2nd once and 3rd once, while as a Buck he ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd in points per game in his 6 years there.

Using the fact that he won 5 of his 6 titles as a Laker as the fact for why he was in his prime seems a bit far fetched considering he was 37 years or older for 3 of those 5. The MVP argument is valid if we're looking at overall game (which we aren't), but the championship argument doesn't hold any water. I think his first year with the Lakers was his best overall season during his entire career, but it wasn't his best scoring season by any means.

Fact still remains though, Kareem's highest seasonal points per game average as a Laker doesn't even break the top 20 in Lakers history. Kobe and Jerry West have 12 seasons between them (6 a piece) where they averaged more than Kareem's career high as a Laker. Shaq (3), Milkan (1) and Elgin (4) have the remaining 8 top 20 seasons.

Kareem was a special player, and I personally rank him as the greatest player to ever play in the NBA. I'm not saying Kareem's prime as a basketball player wasn't in LA, but I am saying his prime as a scorer wasn't in LA. The MVP argument doesn't really hurt that claim, because you don't win MVPs by just scoring points.

We need to look at what he actually produced, and as far as regular season goes his 2nd and 3rd years in Milwaukee more or less blow out any other season in his career when you combined volume and efficiency. Those are the facts.

I don't think there is any possible way we can rank Kareem over Shaq as a scorer unless you pull in his Milwaukee years. Shaq played at a lower pace, but still produced 3 seasons with higher volume than Kareem ever did (and 3 additional better than KAJs second highest) when he was here and on great efficiency.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#24 » by milesfides » Sun Oct 5, 2008 10:47 am

tkb, I understand your argument, but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. I think there's some context to these statistics.

Shaq is more efficient than Kobe, true. Then again, all his shots come around 10 feet and in. He's a true center. Kobe's a perimeter player. By virtue of their different positions, scoring efficiency will be different. That's the nature of the game.

Don't get me wrong, Shaq has been a dominant force in the post. But how can he be the best scorer in laker history when he's such a major liability at the end of games? When he's substituted out of the game, sure, it doesn't hurt his efficiency. But how does this embarrassment get recorded in statistics? It doesn't.

In general, bigs have higher fg% than guards. Andrew Bynum has one of the highest efg% in the league last year with .636. He was very efficient in scoring. Does that make him the best scorer in the league, despite not having a go-to move?

Of course not.

He got most of his points because his teammates drew away defenders and set him up for easy baskets - many of which were uncontested dunks.

Kwame Brown's efg% as a Laker were .527, .591, .515 the past 3 seasons. Those were all consistently higher than Kobe's efg%. Should we have run our offense through Kwame's inept hands?

The point is, focusing on scoring efficiency is applicable to a certain extent.

This even applies to players who play the same position. For example, Shaq's career scoring numbers and percentages are much better than Hakeem Olajuwon's. But intuitively, based on observation, it was clear to me that Olajuwon was a better scorer, with far more talent and moves. He was also not a game-changing liability on the free throw line. The fact is, Olajuwon's fg% was lower because he actually had some range, could take his defender both inside and out. His scoring average was also not as high simply because he did not demand the ball so much as Shaq.

Remember, Tex Winters was quoted as telling Roland Lazenby that Shaq dominated the ball too much and didn't pass enough, which was a detriment to the offense. The 'dump a-Shaq' was good for Shaq's numbers but not necessarily great for the team.

Moreover, there's always an issue of era. Sure, pace factor tries to account for some of this. But the reality is that Shaq played most of his career against relative stiffs. He could simply back down the Todd MacCallough's, the Greg Ostertags, the Shawn Bradleys, etc. but he had much more trouble against quality centers such as Hakeem and even Yao Ming. The late 90s and early 00s simply did not field many great centers, and Shaq exploited that for sure.

As an aside, this is why I think a lot of Jordan's gaudy numbers should be seen with a grain of salt. I still think he's the best scorer of all time, but his opponents were hardly of the same caliber we see today.

Sure, there was Dominique Wilkins and Clyde Drexler, but how about the ubiquitous talented, athletic swingmen in Kobe's era? Guys like McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, Ginobili, Joe Johnson, Josh Howard, and the new crop like Lebron, Wade, Roy, Durant...the list is endless.

And where were the defensive specialists like Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Tayshaun Prince, Battier, Kirilenko? Little Joe Dumars? Little John Starks? Michael Jordan ran into Ron Artest in a pick up game and ended up with broken ribs.

The fact that there are so many perimeter defensive specialists in this league (6'7"+, long arms, great anticipation) is a strong testament to where the talent in our league lies.

I wouldn't dismiss Jordan's scoring ability based on the lack of competition, but I wouldn't dismiss Kobe's scoring ability due to the competition. What Jordan accomplished was unreal, even despite what I would call (and he himself called) a relative lack of competition. What Kobe has accomplished is unreal, especially considering the deepest era of swingmen ever in the history of the game.

Bottom line, statistics don't pick up on the nuances like this.

But back to the Lakers, and the reason why this is relevant to MJ, is that the discussion is really between MJ and Kobe in terms of best scorer ever, at least in my eyes. He has other talents, he's developed certain tangible and intangible skills and qualities, but one thing that he came into the league with was a God-given genius talent to score.

Shaq was a great post scorer, Kareem had a signature move and was the model of consistency, Jerry West a great shooter and Mr. Clutch, Elgin Baylor was dynamic and athletic, but in Jerry West's words, Kobe is a "Picasso in basketball shoes."

The rest are great scorers, but Kobe, like Jordan, made it into an art form.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#25 » by tkb » Sun Oct 5, 2008 12:33 pm

Way different to talk about 7-13 ppg bigs with good efficiency and 27-30 ppg bigs. Arguments about Kwame and Bynum are way out of context in this discussion.

Kobe Bryant probably has more offensive scoring moves than Michael Jordan (in context to the Shaq vs Olajuwon comparions), while MJ was a lot more efficient. Doesn't make Kobe a better scorer than MJ.

Pete Maravich might've been the best scorer in history under your definitions, but I think you have to look at how often the ball actually goes in the hoop relative to attempts.

To use an extreme example:
Someone who can shoot and slash and scores 20 ppg on 38% is far from a better scorer than a 17 ppg 55% big man.

Point I'm making is; yes, Kobe has WAY more moves to score than Shaq had, but Shaq's moves were much harder to stop. Looking at scoring efficiency proves that.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#26 » by tkb » Sun Oct 5, 2008 12:41 pm

milesfides wrote:Moreover, there's always an issue of era. Sure, pace factor tries to account for some of this. But the reality is that Shaq played most of his career against relative stiffs. He could simply back down the Todd MacCallough's, the Greg Ostertags, the Shawn Bradleys, etc. but he had much more trouble against quality centers such as Hakeem and even Yao Ming. The late 90s and early 00s simply did not field many great centers, and Shaq exploited that for sure.


Shaq's career average against these players:
- Hakeem Olajuwon
- David Robinson
- Dikembe Mutombo
- Alonzo Mourning
- Patrick Ewing
- Ben Wallace
Total of 13 DPOY awards between them. Sample size is way over 100 games head to head.

A tad over 27 points per game on about 55% from the field. Think about that for a second.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#27 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Oct 5, 2008 6:46 pm

^^^just to add to what tkb is saying, shaq never had any trouble against the players on that list. And lol at having trouble with yao. Even this past year, with shaq being old, injured, and having a crap team around him, he got the best of yao in their inidividual matchup (at least in one of their games...and this is with yao right around his prime).

Miles....your arguing against superior (in the case with shaq, completely unstoppable) effectiveness. Hakeem was an amazing player with great skills, athletic ability, and talent. But your severly underrating shaq's offense game. He didn't just back people in. He used his power for 3 things. One was his finishing ability. He could finish through fouls and tough defense. Two (and this is where you aren't seeing his skill and basketball iq), he'd kind of use his power to push you back on your heels/nail you to the ground/get you off-balance, then make a quick move, use a spin move, go up for the alley-oop, use footwork, or go up for a jumper or hook. He combined superior power with quickness, agility, footwork, intelligence, a soft touch, and an aggressive style. Three, he'd use power to fight for position. To get closer to the basket. And guess what....nobody could stop him from ever getting the position that he wanted. Thus, more effectiveness.

Oh, and the passing....well shaq's one of the greatest passing big men of all time. Very willing, great vision, commands the attention of an entire defense, hits cutters and shooters, etc. He was the main option in the pass oriented triangle offense. The triangle is usually based off of post passing, working inside out, which is exactly what the lakers did with shaq.

Of course, once kobe crosses halfcourt, he's a legit threat to score from anywhere. He's amazing. But shaq is devasting, and you are underrating him.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#28 » by milesfides » Sun Oct 5, 2008 7:20 pm

Shaq actually had a lot of trouble with Hakeem, IIRC. In fact, Shaq acknowledged that Hakeem was better than him in print - again, if I recall correctly. Either way, I highly dispute that Shaq was a better scorer than Hakeem. Hakeem wasn't the game-changing liability at the free throw line, and his post moves were vastly superior. Hakeem could school anybody, and that included bigger and stronger players like Shaq, David Robinson, and Patrick Ewing.

I didn't say Yao was better than Shaq, simply that Shaq had trouble with quality centers - and there was a dearth of them during Shaq's prime. Shaq was dominant - in a very weak era of big men.

Shaq wasn't unstoppable - case in point, fouls and free-throw shooting. Hack-a-shaq was effective, and a major reason why it didn't derail our championship run? Kobe Bryant and a cast of veteran players.

====

tkb - you're making the same mistake - focusing on one aspect, creative scoring, to dismiss my point. I simply used efficiency to show that scoring ability isn't all about efficiency. Nor is it about creativity. You're misunderstanding my argument. There are many factors to consider for scoring ability, INCLUDING the intangibles that don't show up in statistics (such as how detrimental Shaq's free throw shooting was - more than just a poor percentage, it made him a liability as a scorer).

I am simply advocating a more balanced approach to the OP's question, and I think Tesla did a very elegant and articulate job of providing a balanced answer.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#29 » by Cboywhitey » Sun Oct 5, 2008 8:25 pm

I don't think scoring should come down to points mixed with efficiency mixed with percentage. It's not that easy. I mean if the question was who was the most efficient volume scorer of all time maybe. But that is not the question.

One thing that comes to my mind when scoring comes up is double teams and triple teams. My thing is this...

Kobe is a unique player in NBA history. Nobody has ever seen the amount of double and triple teams that he has. Not even Jordan. The way kobe is defended today was illegal for most of Jordan's career. I heard sports reporters debating Jordans 69 point game vs kobe's 81. They all said well in Jordan's day teams were aloud to hand check. Deffense was much harder. So Jordan's was more impressive. Watch and compare the two games on you tube. Hands down the defenses were both weak. But jordan had much more one on one coverage and had more open looks. I saw many things but hard nose defense was not one of them. I remember watching the game as a kid and drooling. I love this game...anyhowback on point...For the majority of Jordan's career teams didn't double him off the ball. Kobe often has 2 defenders on him trying to deny him the ball. Having the ability to score on that type of coverage is nuts. He does it day in and day out. The center position is one of the hardest to double in basketball. Which is why I can't give a center the best scorer title. I think a guy who can score on 2 or 3 or 4 defenders at a 45 percent clip is superior to a player that gets around 10 to 20 percent of their points on lob passes and effective team offense with mostly single coverage and occasional double coverage but shoots 55 percent.

I think you just have to think about many aspects of scoring. Not just how many times the ball goes in.

I think it has to be kobe. I've never seen anybody do what he does. Not even Jordan.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#30 » by tkb » Sun Oct 5, 2008 9:02 pm

milesfides wrote:Shaq actually had a lot of trouble with Hakeem, IIRC. In fact, Shaq acknowledged that Hakeem was better than him in print - again, if I recall correctly. Either way, I highly dispute that Shaq was a better scorer than Hakeem. Hakeem wasn't the game-changing liability at the free throw line, and his post moves were vastly superior. Hakeem could school anybody, and that included bigger and stronger players like Shaq, David Robinson, and Patrick Ewing.

I didn't say Yao was better than Shaq, simply that Shaq had trouble with quality centers - and there was a dearth of them during Shaq's prime. Shaq was dominant - in a very weak era of big men.


Any my stats prove otherwise. You don't score over 27 points per game on great efficiency against the players I listed if you struggle heavily against them.

You are right that Shaq praised Hakeem pretty heavily after the 1995 Finals, right after Shaq had averaged 28.0 ppg on 59.5% against him that series (and also out rebounding, out passing and out blocking Hakeem). Hakeem was a better player at that point of their careers (prime Hakeem against young Shaq), but Shaq always was a more unstoppable scorer than Hakeem. For reference Hakeem averaged 32.8 ppg on 48% that series.

In any way, Hakeem must've had pretty low basketball IQ the way you describe the two players. Since he could school just about anybody he would be stupid to take shots that limited him to the percentage he had, and Shaq must've had just about the highest hoops IQ of all time scoring as efficiently as he did despite not having as great post moves (which is a part of his game that is crazy underrated btw).

You're entitled to argue skills all you want, and I won't disagree with you on those counts but I will say you're a pretty great scorer when nobody and I mean nobody can stop you despite having a limited arsenal. For reference I don't view Shaq to be as limited as he's described here. He was an unbelievably talented post scorer with great footwork.

Look, I can understand that Shaq isn't the most popular player around here after what happened when he left but he's getting seriously underrated in this thread and I'm starting to wonder if some of you even remember how great he was for us. I've been re-watching some of the games during the 3-peat lately, and it's ridiculous how good he was. He could do anything he wanted whenever he wanted against whoever he wanted. He was just that good.

You guys do know that for the Hack-a-Shaq to be effective you have to shoot better than 50% in eFG% as a team to benefit right? That's a decent gamble to take late in close games because of the 3P-line, but a strategy you'd probably suffer greatly by running for long periods outside of crunch time. And even in crunch time (last 2 minutes) Shaq still has to touch the ball for opposing teams to be able to hack him. Else Shaq is shooting technical free throws.

Cboywhitey wrote:Kobe is a unique player in NBA history. Nobody has ever seen the amount of double and triple teams that he has. Not even Jordan.


I'm going to tell you this much. I'm watching the Kings - Lakers from 2001 on a tape right now, and Shaq is more or less constantly double or triple teamed while Kobe is left wide open or on single coverage out on the perimeter. Shaq in his prime certainly saw as many doubles/triples as Kobe sees, if not more. Just go back and watch the games. Kobe is my favorite player of all time, but he's not the only great player in NBA history.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#31 » by Anklebreaker702 » Mon Oct 6, 2008 1:47 am

[/quote]Ok I stand corrected on the MVP issue but Kareem lead the league in scoring as a Laker in '75-'76 season & won MVP that same season also. You make good points but my question still stands. Are you trying to say Kareem was in his prime as a buck only? Yes some of the titles (championship) did come when he was a little older but up until about '85 Kareem was still the 1st option in the offense. You have to realize players points start to deminish as the team gets better usually. Take a look at Michael Jordan. He was a better player after he started winning titles because he was a smarter & all around better player. So statistics don't always show exactly what's what. Barkley's #'s are right there with Birds, but i'd take Larry over sir Charles in a heartbeat
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#32 » by Verbal » Mon Oct 6, 2008 2:02 am

A few interesting points I'd like to add before I read this thoroughly:

1) Gary Payton vs MJ

GP put the gloves on MJ after George Karl took the leash off "The Glove". (1995-1996 NBA FINALS)

-Quick side note: Y'all might wanna check it out, I haven't - but if you find it, lemme know where too! I needa get my hands on it. :D


2) Hakeem "The Dream" vs "Shaq Fu"

Hakeem was pretty much the Michael Jackson of post-moves.

I wish I could have seen him play in his prime.

Anyways.. he earned Shaq's respect as a player.


3) Kobe

Kobe is the best pure scoring talent in Lakers history... he would be even more dangerous if a team ran their offense through him.

And I'm not talking about just dumping him the ball and letting him go Iso-vs-multiple defenders and having Kobe manhandle ppl.

I'm talking about really running an offense around someone like Phil did for Mike/Scottie Pippen.

It might not happen the way I envision it could be run due to the talented selection of muscle we got around the Kobester now; Gasol, Bynum, Odom.

But you know who this is all gonna work out for?

You guessed it!
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#33 » by milesfides » Mon Oct 6, 2008 7:02 am

tkb wrote:
Any my stats prove otherwise. You don't score over 27 points per game on great efficiency against the players I listed if you struggle heavily against them.


I never said struggle heavily - simply that Shaq didn't dominate against them. Shaq doesn't dominate quality centers, but Kobe dominates despite the ubiquitous defensive specialist in this era, all who exist to shut him down. Nearly every night, Kobe faces a defensive specialist on one end, as well as needing to break down defenses by virtue of his role. His 35 PPG season was ridiculous, considering that opponents' strategy was to shut him down by swarming him with defenders, both elite individual defenders and team defenses.

Imagine if Shaq had to play against elite defenders every night. Would he have been as dominant? Let me ask you, how many Todd MacColloughs, Rasho Nesterovics, Greg Ostertags, Shawn Bradleys, did Kobe face?

There are no stiffs who play 2-guard or 3-guard. These are elite athletes with much talent.

Kobe battles these guys EVERY game, breaks down team defenses every game, scores from every angle in the game, and does it at an unbelievable level.

Speaking of offensive roles, I don't see the point of comparing scoring efficiency between centers and guards. They have DIFFERENT roles. You're dismissing Kwame's efg% due to his low scoring average - but what's so different from his role as any other post man? Establish position in the post and finish when his teammates find him - this is what centers do, from Shaq to Kwame. Even a klutz like Kwame can dunk one out of two times when he's three feet from the basket.

Also, Hakeem with low bball IQ? No. If he can score inside so well, why doesn't he do it all the time? Because it may not be good for the offense. The fact that Hakeem could take his defender outside did open up the floor made it harder for defenses to counter him. It also opened up the lanes for the guards. It contributes to a more dynamic offense. Yes, it would lower his shooting percentage, but it was good for the team.

All of Shaq's baskets came within 10 feet, but that wasn't always good for the team. Dumping the ball to Shaq at times cost the team. Shaq's "feed the dog" mentality was good, but doing something predictable over and over again did set up opportunities for the opponent to beat us. Our offense would become stagnant, shooters could get cold after simply dumping the ball possession after possession.

Bigs like Duncan, Amare, Kevin Garnett all developed a midrange shot to help open up the floor for their teammates, to create a more dynamic offense. Is it best for their percentages? No, but it helps the offense.

On the other hand, one of Kobe's roles as a perimeter player is to stretch defenses with his shooting - and his proficiency at doing so ALLOWS Shaquille to operate with less traffic in the paint. By virtue of the difficulty of outside shooting, perimeter shooting WILL fall at a lower percentage than interior shooting. This is obvious. No team can win just by dunking. Bigs generally take interior shots, guards take outside shots, and this is basketball.

1. He didn't face as much competition in his position as Kobe, consistently every night for his career. Shaq was dominant, and he was certainly skilled and powerful in the post, but the competition was just not that stiff, because there were a lot of stiffs in an era of weak big men.

2. Directly comparing scoring efficiency is illogical, imo. It's comparing apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Bigs and guards have different roles. Guards shoot and pass, bigs catch and dunk. The difficulty in shooting jump shots (which is a necessary component of basketball) results in lower shooting percentage, but this is more of a function of guards and bigs having different roles. Bigs will generally be more efficient than guards, regardless of talent level.

3. I see nothing wrong in claiming Shaq's offense was comparable limited. He has no 3-point shooting, he has no midrange, and he is a MAJOR liability at the free-throw line. Don't think Hack-a-Shaq is effective? Tell that to the Suns as the Spurs eliminated them last year.

I'm not underrating Shaq. I don't think it's necessary for me to express my appreciation for him to validate my arguments, which should stand on their own logic. I also don't think it's necessary for you to tout Kobe as your favorite player of all time.

I don't think Kobe's a better scorer than Shaq because I harbor ill will towards Shaq. A charge like that would be disrespecting all the well-thought out discussion that occurred so far in this thread.

I think Kobe's a better scorer than Shaq because of the variety of factors that i mentioned above. I don't emphasize on anything in particular, no one or two statistics.

-Kobe has faced tougher competition at his position, in an era when most of the talent has been consolidated at guard, including the rise of perimeter defensive specialists
-Kobe's scoring average was limited by his early years and his role as primary facilitator
-Kobe's lower scoring efficiency is inherently explained by his being a guard
-Kobe has a incomparably bigger range of moves
-Kobe is at least proficient, mostly excellent at every aspect of scoring
-Kobe is not a liability, let alone a game-changing liability in any aspect of scoring
-Kobe is clutch
-Kobe has accomplished many more impressive scoring feats (81 point game, 50-point streak, 40-point month, 35 ppg season, long free-throw streaks, record 3-pointers in a game, etc.)

Put succinctly, he has a complete offensive game and has shown us things that we've never seen before, at a nearly unparalleled mastery. Again, the only player who really equals or betters Kobe in scoring is Michael Jordan, for all the same reasons (and I think it's close).
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#34 » by tkb » Mon Oct 6, 2008 7:53 am

Depends who you define as quality centers. Shaq averaged over 40 points per game one year against Patrick Ewing for instance. Where is this nonsense about him not dominating against great competition comping from? I'd like to see some statistics to back up those claims Miles. I've provided statistics to show he dominated offensively against some of the best defenders this league has ever seen at Shaq's position, and yet you keep brushing that off and state he didn't dominate against them. Show me some numbers to back it up.

milesfides wrote:Also, Hakeem with low bball IQ? No. If he can score inside so well, why doesn't he do it all the time? Because it may not be good for the offense. The fact that Hakeem could take his defender outside did open up the floor made it harder for defenses to counter him. It also opened up the lanes for the guards. It contributes to a more dynamic offense. Yes, it would lower his shooting percentage, but it was good for the team.


If so, those efforts failed him (in comparison to Shaq only) seeing as a team with Shaq on the floor on average throughout both players careers score 5 more points per 100 possessions. Don't try to spin this to Shaq playing with Kobe either, because Shaq's two highest seasons came with Orlando and the highest one was when Penny was a 16 ppg rookie. Shaq's years in LA still beat Hakeem by a considerate margin though.

I'll re-formulate my claim about Shaq to see where you guys stand. Shaq is the most unstoppable scorer in Lakers history and the most efficient high volume scorer this franchise has ever seen. Anyone disagree?
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#35 » by tkb » Mon Oct 6, 2008 8:00 am

anklebreaker702 wrote:Ok I stand corrected on the MVP issue but Kareem lead the league in scoring as a Laker in '75-'76 season & won MVP that same season also. You make good points but my question still stands. Are you trying to say Kareem was in his prime as a buck only? Yes some of the titles (championship) did come when he was a little older but up until about '85 Kareem was still the 1st option in the offense. You have to realize players points start to deminish as the team gets better usually. Take a look at Michael Jordan. He was a better player after he started winning titles because he was a smarter & all around better player. So statistics don't always show exactly what's what. Barkley's #'s are right there with Birds, but i'd take Larry over sir Charles in a heartbeat


Bob McAdoo averaged 31.1 points per game in 1975-76. Kareem averaged 27.7.

If you read my posts, I think I've made it pretty clear I wasn't arguing Kareem's prime as an overall player to be just when he was a Buck. Feel free to go back and read the posts.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#36 » by Cboywhitey » Mon Oct 6, 2008 11:28 am

TKB

I don't think shaq is being undervalued in this thread at all. There is no denying he was a dominate force. I don't think anybody is saying he isn't one of the elite talents the lakers have been blessed with over the years. But I have to disagree about the double teams. I just went and watch the kings games again to make sure but yes I agree that shaq saw double teams. Usually using bibby as a spy who would run in if shaq put the ball on the floor. But that is too late. Most of what shaq did was single covereage before doubles came...Let me explain a bit more.

When I said the center position is one of the hardest to double it's because your defense will absolutely break down if you double off the ball on a center.

Here is the deal. The majority of centers points come from off the ball positioning. Meaning most of shaqs work is done without the ball. He is never doubled at those times. He is left one on one to get his spot deep in the post. Once he does get that deep post spot the ball is dumped into him. Then the double and triple team comes. Most of the time it comes once he puts the ball on the floor. Which is way way too late with shaq.

Teams actually double kobe off the ball. Meaning they throw two guys on him hope'n he doesn't get the ball. I've seen three guys deny him the ball before. And getting double teamed 2 feet from the basket isn't anything like a double team on the perimeter.

And I think your most unstoppable remark is getting closer but I have to disagree there too. He created so many problems for defenses it was silly but like I said the majority of shaqs offense comes from getting post position. That is all one on one. Where if kobe shoots anything inside 3 range he more times than not has to do it against multiple players. Or play chess and figure out where an open spot on the floor will be. He doesn't have the luxury of getting inches from the bucket then picking up extra defenders. I understand kobe sees plenty of single coverage. But he rarely gets to the bucket without seeing more than one defender.

Here is a youtube video showing the type of defense kobe sees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYBeNQdSCc&NR=1

Again this in no way is bashing shaq. He is a center. It's how centers play. It's how defense is played. Why are centers so hard to defend? Because defenders play back to the basket. It's hard to spy a center unless you have eyes in the back of your head. If you spy a center or sag in on him too much you will lose your perimeter player. There is only one line of defense between a center. Guards are different. Kobe is different. Watch the celtics finals again and see how many eyes are on kobe when he has the ball. Usually all 5. And the celtics kept 3 guys as primary defenders on kobe at all times. It's just how the game is played. Guards see much more defense than centers. So when it comes to dominate scoring or unstoppable scoring I pick the guy that can score even when whole teams guard him throughout most of his offensive attack.

I think maybe a better debate might be what Laker had more offensive impact than any other laker in history. That could be a fun one. Off the top of my head it's close between shaq kobe and magic. But yeah that's another thread another time type thing.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#37 » by tkb » Mon Oct 6, 2008 4:20 pm

With all due respect I saw plenty of doubles off the ball to deny Shaq the ball in the post during the 3-peat games I've been re-watching lately. Battling and establishing deep post position is every bit as much a skill as slashing through screens to get to the rim is IMO. One of them has a lot more flair to it though.

I respect all of your opinions, but I still stand firm on Shaq being the best scorer we've had. We might disagree on how to define what being a better scorer is, and that's fine, but that's where I stand.

I've consistently said I think Kobe by far is the more skilled scorer between the two, and the most skilled scorer in Laker history. I don't think there is any doubt or disagreement about that part. Kobe can score in ways Shaq could never dream of scoring, but Shaq scored more easily on a consistent basis and that's why I'm putting him at 1. I have no problem seeing why Kobe could be nr 1 on the list, but I define being a better scorer in a different way than a lot of people here because I value efficiency more.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#38 » by Cboywhitey » Mon Oct 6, 2008 6:02 pm

TKB I totally understand what you're saying. The debate is pointless without an agreement on what scorer means. So I feel you.

But I want to clear up a couple things.

I don't think post play is a natural ability that requires little talent. Most guards have no post play at all and will never have a great post tool bag. It is a skill set like you said. It also sounds like you think most of us are picking kobe because he is a flashy player and the guard spot is more dynamic. I can't answer for others but for me that is not why I pick him. I'm a true basketball fan I get every bit as excited seeing a center battle for ground as I do a killer cross over. I love every part of the game. I'm a true geek I even get excited when lamar rotates to the right position on the floor away from the ball to allow spacing for kobe to dish to pau for a bucket. Lamar excites me in that situation as much as the pass and dunk. I love the game.

As far as the doubles on shaq in the kings series. I did not say he wasn't doubled. I said he was and that bibby actually even was a spy so in a way he was being triple teamed. But the double and triple team is too late in my opinion. My point was not to say he wasn't doubled it was to say that shaq was single covered while he was banging his way into deep post. Getting deep post is most of the offensive work for a center like shaq. I didn't mean he wasn't being doubled off the ball. I meant he only sees doubles once he lands his post position. Sorry for the confusion there.

Anyhow I understand your point and why you have made him your pick. He was incredibly talented, efficient and dominate. I am in no way denying that. As fans of the Lakers we are lucky to have had players worthy of these debates.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#39 » by tkb » Mon Oct 6, 2008 6:23 pm

Na. I'm not saying you guys are picking Kobe just because he's more flashy. I can totally relate to picking Kobe in this based on skill set. I'm just saying guard play because of it's flashiness is more easy to recognize as skillful play than fundamental low post play off the ball for instance, which is true. That part of Shaq's game has always been greatly overlooked IMO. He was a very smart and fundamentally sound low block player both on the ball and off the ball.
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Re: Who is the best scorer in laker history? 

Post#40 » by Tesla » Mon Oct 6, 2008 6:57 pm

tkb wrote:I'll re-formulate my claim about Shaq to see where you guys stand. Shaq is the most unstoppable scorer in Lakers history and the most efficient high volume scorer this franchise has ever seen. Anyone disagree?


I'll somewhat disagree.

Here are each players 5 best years combined as Lakers as far as scoring/TS% goes: (regular season)

Shaquille O'Neal: 28.3ppg on roughly 58.5%TS
Kareem A Jabaar: 26.2 on roughly 60.2%TS
Kobe Bryant : 30.8 on roughly 56.3%TS
Jerry West : 29.9 on roughly 57.3%TS

So, Kobe Bryant scores 2.5 more points than Shaq, but shoots 2%TS less than Shaq. If you choose Shaq over Kobe here, then its only fair then to choose Kareem over Shaq by the same logic. Shaq scores 2.1points more than Kareem, but shoots 2%TS less than Kareem. Then you have Jerry West who is pretty much right in the middle of everybody, in both volume and efficiency.

Its really not that cut and dry. I definitely can agree with Shaq being the most unstoppable when he's in his scoring area, and using his body/skills to just overpower/out quick the opponent, but the same can somewhat be said to some degree about Kobe, West, Kareem. With Kobe, he is arguably the most unstoppable player in history when he's really in his zone/hot (scoring wise), although that probably only happens 5% of the games he plays or so, but happens in probably more than 30% of games at at least one point in the game.

So who is the most efficient/volume scoring combo? I don't know it depends. If by volume, 26points a game is enough, then its Kareem. If by volume 28points is enough, then its Shaq. If by volume 29-30points is enough, then its West. If by volume 31points is enough, then its Kobe. If you want to say the best volume scorer who is also efficient - then the answer is clearly Kobe, because 56%TS is efficient, just not super efficient. If you want to say, volume scorer who is most efficient, then its Kareem.
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