OT: Pacman vs Dela Hoya! Who you got!

[B-Scott]

De La Hoya's career is great but not as good as some proclaim

here's a guy who barely beat Ike Quartey, flat out ROBBED Pernell Whitaker in their bout, flat out RAN AWAY from Felix "Tito" Trinidad when they fought, flat out ROBBED no name Felix Sturm in their bout, absolutely quitted when fighting Hopkins and now got schooled by a guy much smaller and lighter than him.

From a business standpoint it was a great career, from a Boxing standpoint, it was great but not as great as some say

My 2 cents

I agree Oscar did not live up to his full potential, but you can't knock him for barely beating Ike Quartey. Both were undefeated at the time and Quartey was in his prime. That's a great victory for Oscar and to comeback that 12th round showed a lot of heart. He had the Trinidad fight in the bag and had he kept boxing and kept throwing his combinations he wins the fight with ease. I blame Gil Glancy his cornerman who told him he basically had the fight won and to stay out of harms way. I could understand if Tito nailed him with a big shot round 8 or 9, but Oscar just changed strategy for no reason other than his corner.

I disagree he quit against Hopkins. B-Hop is a natural 160 pounder, much bigger than Oscar and caught him with the perfect liver shot. If you have ever been in the ring or sparred id rather get hit in the face then take a big liver shot. It knocks the wind out of you. If it's a perfect shot, its almost impossible to get up.

[CX44]

Lets not forget the two losses to Mosley and the loss to Mayweather. Oscar has won world titles but when he went up against the absolute best he lost period. He had a good career against fighter at the end of their career like Chavez, Whitaker, and Camacho. Oscar always fought people on the fringe either at the end of their career or up and coming names Fernando Vargas who were not ready to fight him. He had a nice career and should get in the hall of fame for his 6 workd titles but should NEVER be considered one of the best of alltime.

He fought Fernando Vargas after he got destroyed by Felix Trinidad

Vargas might have won it if Trinidad wasn't a cheater with his blatant and intentional low blows when he was hurt after being knocked down.

Did you forget that Fernando Vargas was suspended after the De La Hoya fight for testing positive for steriods? So don't talk about cheating.

[CX44]

De La Hoya's career is great but not as good as some proclaim

here's a guy who barely beat Ike Quartey, flat out ROBBED Pernell Whitaker in their bout, flat out RAN AWAY from Felix "Tito" Trinidad when they fought, flat out ROBBED no name Felix Sturm in their bout, absolutely quitted when fighting Hopkins and now got schooled by a guy much smaller and lighter than him.

From a business standpoint it was a great career, from a Boxing standpoint, it was great but not as great as some say

My 2 cents

I agree Oscar did not live up to his full potential, but you can't knock him for barely beating Ike Quartey. Both were undefeated at the time and Quartey was in his prime. That's a great victory for Oscar and to comeback that 12th round showed a lot of heart. He had the Trinidad fight in the bag and had he kept boxing and kept throwing his combinations he wins the fight with ease. I blame Gil Glancy his cornerman who told him he basically had the fight won and to stay out of harms way. I could understand if Tito nailed him with a big shot round 8 or 9, but Oscar just changed strategy for no reason other than his corner.

I disagree he quit against Hopkins. B-Hop is a natural 160 pounder, much bigger than Oscar and caught him with the perfect liver shot. If you have ever been in the ring or sparred id rather get hit in the face then take a big liver shot. It knocks the wind out of you. If it's a perfect shot, its almost impossible to get up.

Ike Quartey is not a great win it is a good win. Sure he was undefeated when he fought Oscar but had not fought in 14 months prior to their fight and Ike will never be considered one of the greatest fighters of his era. He had a nice career that led him to become a world champion. If Oscar's best win is beating a guy who had been off for 14 months and had a nice career, then that should tell you all you need to know about Oscar's career.

[Arroyo30]

pacman vs mayweather would be a classic.

[CX44]

That would be and if there is enough money involved Mayweather just may come out of retirement for tit. I would like to see at 140lbs, which may favor Manny.

[Blame Rasho]

Did you forget that Fernando Vargas was suspended after the De La Hoya fight for testing positive for steriods? So don't talk about cheating.

Everyone knows that Tito was a known cheater, and if you want to call out Vargas a cheater as well fine. I have no problem with that... He was. It is just as bad a having loaded wraps,hitting low or hitting someone when they are down. I have my own doubts of everyone good guy, Mosley and if he actually did know what he was taking prior to fighting De La Hoya.

[Blame Rasho]

De La Hoya's career is great but not as good as some proclaim

here's a guy who barely beat Ike Quartey, flat out ROBBED Pernell Whitaker in their bout, flat out RAN AWAY from Felix "Tito" Trinidad when they fought, flat out ROBBED no name Felix Sturm in their bout, absolutely quitted when fighting Hopkins and now got schooled by a guy much smaller and lighter than him.

From a business standpoint it was a great career, from a Boxing standpoint, it was great but not as great as some say

My 2 cents

I agree Oscar did not live up to his full potential, but you can't knock him for barely beating Ike Quartey. Both were undefeated at the time and Quartey was in his prime. That's a great victory for Oscar and to comeback that 12th round showed a lot of heart. He had the Trinidad fight in the bag and had he kept boxing and kept throwing his combinations he wins the fight with ease. I blame Gil Glancy his cornerman who told him he basically had the fight won and to stay out of harms way. I could understand if Tito nailed him with a big shot round 8 or 9, but Oscar just changed strategy for no reason other than his corner.

I disagree he quit against Hopkins. B-Hop is a natural 160 pounder, much bigger than Oscar and caught him with the perfect liver shot. If you have ever been in the ring or sparred id rather get hit in the face then take a big liver shot. It knocks the wind out of you. If it's a perfect shot, its almost impossible to get up.

Ike Quartey is not a great win it is a good win. Sure he was undefeated when he fought Oscar but had not fought in 14 months prior to their fight and Ike will never be considered one of the greatest fighters of his era. He had a nice career that led him to become a world champion. If Oscar's best win is beating a guy who had been off for 14 months and had a nice career, then that should tell you all you need to know about Oscar's career.

I would really recommend everyone to read this link...

I will code if for it not to be too long

http://www.badlefthook.com/2008/12/7/68 ... -legacy-of

What is the true legacy of Oscar de la Hoya?

Code: Select all


What IS his legacy?

In other words, how good was Oscar de la Hoya? Really.

When Oscar turned pro in 1992, he was fresh off of his Olympic Gold Medal from the '92 Games in Barcelona. Outside of the U.S. basketball's ridiculous Dream Team, he was the biggest American story of the Olympics. Oscar's pro debut came on November 23, 1992, at the famed Great Western Forum of Inglewood.

Four months later, in his fifth pro fight, Oscar was facing Jeff Mayweather, a decent fighter with a 23-2-2 record. You don't see that a whole lot in a guy's fifth fight these days. Victor Ortiz is 25 fights in and has only recently gotten around to that sort of competition. Daniel Jacobs is 13 in and is still smashing bums, as if he's got anything more to learn from beating the crap out of guys like Victor Lares.

The "handle with care" philosophy has its positives, but fighters don't get to rise fast the way they used to in most cases. Andre Ward was an Olympic star, and he's five years into his pro career with a whole 16 fights to his credit.

When Oscar was 11 fights in, he took on Denmark's Jimmy Bredahl for the WBO junior lightweight title, and he kicked his ass. Two fights later, he got rid of tough Mexican Jorge Paez in two rounds, winning a lightweight title. John Avila, John John Molina, Rafael Ruelas -- they all fell to the young de la Hoya. These were good fighters.

Genaro Hernandez suffered his first loss at the hands of Oscar in 1995, retiring after six rounds. Hernandez's only other career loss came to Money Mayweather, who never lost to anybody he fought. Jesse James Leija was another '95 victim.

When he fought Julio Cesar Chavez in 1996, Chavez was 34 years old and had a history of wars that probably made him feel older. Oscar, perhaps in an attempt to become the new idol of the Mexican fight fans, took him on and destroyed him. It never sat well with a lot of Mexican fans, and neither did their 1998 rematch, when Oscar beat him again.

Between the two Chavez fights, he took the undefeated record of Miguel Angel Gonzalez, beat Hall of Famer Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker, dumped David Kamau in two rounds, stomped Hector "Macho" Camacho over 12 rounds, and knocked out Wilfredo Rivera.

This is the period of Oscar's career that most interests me, because these days, you'd almost think he didn't do all of these things. You just read the name of some great fighters. Whitaker made the Hall of Fame in 2007. Chavez will as soon as he hits the ballot. There is real substance to the guys Oscar was beating in the 1990s.

Felix-trinidad-1_medium 1999 starts the Era of Oscar by which his entire career is judged, it seems.

A split decision win over Ike "Bazooka" Quartey preceded an 11th round TKO of Oba Carr. Both fights led to his epic showdown with Felix Trinidad. It was Mexico-Puerto Rico for a new generation, even if the Mexican fans maybe didn't love Oscar the way he wanted them to.

It's no use going into the story at length. We all know the fight. We know Tito Trinidad won. We know Oscar ran around the ring and didn't fight in the later rounds, feeling he was so comfortably ahead that there was no use in mixing it up with the powerful, surely KO-seeking Trinidad.

That fight, that one night in Oscar de la Hoya's career, changed everything. If there is one thing that any red-blood boxing fan hates to see, it's a guy that isn't fighting. Not everyone has to be a brawler, but Oscar tried to run away from Trinidad in that fight. There is no other way to put it. He gambled the wrong way, and he lost. He was never the same after loss No. 1.

He came into the Trinidad fight at 31-0. If his career is truly over after last night's beating, he finished it 8-6. So let's examine the eight wins.

Derell Coley was the first to go, knocked out in the seventh round. Arturo Gatti took a whomping from Oscar.  After that he went up to 154 pounds and dealt with Javier Castillejo, then had a legitimate grudge match with Fernando Vargas. The Vargas fight, I still say, may have been Oscar's shining moment. It is no doubt amoung his proudest. He shut the loud-mouthed Vargas up with an 11th round stoppage in a close, competitive fight.

Yori Boy Campas fell next, and then Oscar took his still-debated middleweight title win over Felix Sturm. After taking almost two full years off, another big talker was silenced when Oscar nearly decapitated Ricardo Mayorga in 2006. And earlier this year he beat Steve Forbes.

Not bad. Lots of good fighters there, too. But none great.

The six losses?

We talked about Trinidad. Shane Mosley beat him in 2000 and again in 2003, a couple of very hot fights that I think are still a bit underrated. The bigger Bernard Hopkins knocked him out in 2004. Floyd Mayweather outpointed in him '07. And last night, Manny Pacquiao sent him packing.

Every guy on that list is going to the Hall of Fame. He gave the fight away to Trinidad. He lost tight to Shane on two occasions. Hopkins was too big and strong, eventually just walking through Oscar's punches and laying waste to his liver with one perfect shot. Mayweather was too skilled. Pacquiao was too...everything.

Some of Oscar's best wins came what feels like a lifetime ago. Surely, it's hard to compare any fighter at 35 with himself in his mid-20s. Did Oscar ever really become the fighter he could have been, as he bounced from trainer to trainer to trainer over his career, notorious for throwing them under the bus when things didn't work out as planned? Did he ever find an identity as a fighter?

Were his later years too wrapped up in the business end of Golden Boy Promotions, truly making him a part-time fighter?

The questions are relevant, but I'm not sure how significant the answers to them are. I don't think he ever became the great fighter he could have been, and that lack of identity, of defining who Oscar de la Hoya was in the ring, is a big part of that, in my view. And of course he was very big on the business side of the game in the last few years. He redefined American boxing promotion with his company. What was an audacious idea doomed to fail became what is today one of the two companies that rule the roost in American boxing.

I don't think it's fair to say that Oscar lost all his big fights, because he won a lot of big fights before he was Moneybags de la Hoya. Back when he was "just a fighter."

Capt But you cannot deny that when faced with elite fighters in the last 14 fights of his career, he lost every single time. He went 0-6 against Pacquiao, Trinidad, Mosley, Mayweather and Hopkins. And these are guys that came in all shapes and sizes. Pacquiao was coming up to 147 after one fight at 135 pounds. Mosley skipped 140 and went to 147 to fight Oscar. Hopkins was a middleweight, for God's sake, who later went on to win the light heavyweight championship of the world. Mayweather was a once-in-a-generation slickster that bounced through weight classes with the greatest of ease. Only Trinidad was really "the same size" as Oscar.

We talk about it a lot, and so does everyone else, but now that it looks like we've come to the end, I think it's time to really reflect on that mark. What does it really mean? How much weight does it have when considering Oscar the fighter in an all-time manner? Does it deserve to totally overshadow the great young fighter he was?

And it leads to another thing that's been said a million times. Oscar went 0-6 against those guys because he fought them. He fought them all in their primes. In between losing to the elite fighters, he beat some good fighters, usually convincingly, and kept his name out there for another of the sport's top tier to come calling.

Sometimes when he lost, he was indignant (Trinidad). Other times, he simply felt he'd won (Mosley, Mayweather). And then there were the times he couldn't deny (Hopkins, Pacquiao).

Through it all -- all the name-calling thrown at him by the less socially adept parts of the boxing audience, all the trash talk from the fighters, all the guys that were going to get rid of him, all the guys that were happy to be there fighting him -- Oscar de la Hoya was a constant for boxing in the last 16 years. He sold every fight he was in to the best of his ability. He is responsible for the biggest PPV fight in history. He is the biggest attraction in the sport's history, period, outside of the heavyweight division.

Another thing I've often said is that love him, hate him, or anywhere in between (I'm somewhere in between), I cannot imagine the state boxing would be in today without Oscar de la Hoya. He was a genuine phenomenon in boxing marketing, an A-plus salesman, and a damn good fighter at the least. Oscar was the beacon of light in a pretty dark time for the sport in terms of business, and in terms of public perception. He was the star of stars for his generation.

His real legacy is more about everything he did for the sport, and almost all of it was good. But it's hard to ignore his polarizing personality and the way that many diehards just never warmed to the guy. There's more to that than a shrug of the shoulders, too.

I'm no psychologist, and I can't tell you why Oscar ever did anything. "Money" is the obvious answer, but I think there was always more to it than that. Reducing it to simple greenbacks isn't giving Oscar enough credit.

One more thing I've said plenty of times before: we'll miss him when he's gone, particularly from a business standpoint. I know we all want to see great fights, but great fights that don't sell past the hardcore fans aren't going to be seen by too many people. It's not economically viable for TV networks if people don't watch.

And it's not going to be easy to find the next Oscar de la Hoya.

[Chubby Chaser]

Did you forget that Fernando Vargas was suspended after the De La Hoya fight for testing positive for steriods? So don't talk about cheating.

Yeah, I was never really an Oscar fan but watching this fight with Vargas made me appreciate Oscar's boxing skill and toughness a lot more. In this fight Vargas came out swinging for the fences. He threw and connected with the hardest punches I've seen anyone throw. I mean he pounded Oscar with some hard hitting fast haymakers to Oscar's jaw. And Oscar hung with him and never went down. He took the punches and forced the fight to go the distance then picked him apart in the later rounds. Eventually knocking him out. Once it got released that Vargas tested positive for steroids it made so much sense to me, because there was just something about how fast and hard he was punching that didn't look right. And all the credit in the world went to Oscar for taking those shots and going the distance. If anyone saw that fight they would know exactly what I'm talking about.

But as far as Oscar's legacy. I was never really high on Oscar. II always felt that he was just smart business wise in his self promotions and people fell in love with his name more than his skill.

I would love to see a Pacquiao vs Floyd ( I cannot Stand Floyd) , then a Pacquiao vs Hatton fights. Bring them on!

[Chubby Chaser]

Did you forget that Fernando Vargas was suspended after the De La Hoya fight for testing positive for steriods? So don't talk about cheating.

Yeah, I was never really an Oscar fan but watching this fight with Vargas made me appreciate Oscar's boxing skill and toughness a lot more. In this fight Vargas came out swinging for the fences. He threw and connected with the hardest punches I've seen anyone throw. I mean he pounded Oscar with some hard hitting fast haymakers to Oscar's jaw. And Oscar hung with him and never went down. He took the punches and forced the fight to go the distance then picked him apart in the later rounds. Eventually knocking him out. Once it got released that Vargas tested positive for steroids it made so much sense to me, because there was just something about how fast and hard he was punching that didn't look right. And all the credit in the world went to Oscar for taking those shots and going the distance. If anyone saw that fight they would know exactly what I'm talking about.

But as far as Oscar's legacy. I was never really high on Oscar. II always felt that he was just smart business wise in his self promotions and people fell in love with his name more than his skill.

I would love to see a Pacquiao vs Floyd ( I cannot Stand Floyd) , then a Pacquiao vs Hatton fights. Bring them on!

[Chubby Chaser]

Did you forget that Fernando Vargas was suspended after the De La Hoya fight for testing positive for steriods? So don't talk about cheating.

Yeah, I was never really an Oscar fan but watching this fight with Vargas made me appreciate Oscar's boxing skill and toughness a lot more. In this fight Vargas came out swinging for the fences. He threw and connected with the hardest punches I've seen anyone throw. I mean he pounded Oscar with some hard hitting fast haymakers to Oscar's jaw. And Oscar hung with him and never went down. He took the punches and forced the fight to go the distance then picked him apart in the later rounds. Eventually knocking him out. Once it got released that Vargas tested positive for steroids it made so much sense to me, because there was just something about how fast and hard he was punching that didn't look right. And all the credit in the world went to Oscar for taking those shots and going the distance. If anyone saw that fight they would know exactly what I'm talking about.

But as far as Oscar's legacy. I was never really high on Oscar. II always felt that he was just smart business wise in his self promotions and people fell in love with his name more than his skill.

I would love to see a Pacquiao vs Floyd ( I cannot Stand Floyd) , then a Pacquiao vs Hatton fights. Bring them on!

[Verbal]

Ouch.

Losing to a game to a cheater?


Good call by Oscar's camp then.

[Blame Rasho]

I remember saying that Vargas had such a weird body type in that fight... He had chicken legs but had a massive upperbody that just beyond proportionate.

[CX44]

Oscar has been a great business man maybe the best the sport has ever seen. He has been able to over take King and Arum as the best promoter in the sport but as far as a fighter he is great against lesser talent but never truly came through against the best his sport had to offer.