Kobe Question

[Brooklyn Zoo]

A legit Kobe question from the other side. Please understand this is a respectful question. I don't watch a great many Laker's games because I hate them, but I do respect them.

It's always said that great players make other players around them better. As someone who has watched a ton of NBA basketball in the last 20 years, I've seen this from many different teams. Some times it's vets and sometimes it's younger players who need guidance, but they are guys that you can tell really play better with /because of their star player.

Jordan had Kerr and Paxton and Kukoc and BJ Armstrong.

Magic had Worthy and Cooper and Byron Scott.

Duncan had Bowen and Parker.

KG has Glenn Davis and Rondo who have clearly followed his approach to the game.

With Kobe, the only player in his career that I think of as being better at his side is Ariza. While I don't doubt the leadership that ABC/ESPN keep telling me he exhibits, there aren't any players that I really see his presence having significantly improved.

I know that he "creates open looks" and "leads" and those are expected of a star with his talent and ability. But who does he click with that plays at a higher level with / because of him?

[Geoff35]

cuz he doesn't

Hes just a great individual player, nothin more nothin less

[Mamba Venom]

He closed games so Shaq could win (no way could a free throw shooter that bad win 3 chips w/o a closer)

The 3 peat teams were made of vets so Kobe didnt help make them better per say. He helped them win so they could ride off into the sunset happy

He got Sasha & Luke 5 mil contracts

Fish did his Kobe impression in game 3 REMEMBER
He got Ariza a 5 mil contract

GASOL

He got Odom to play big in the play-offs in 2009 AND IN GAME 5 JUST WAIT!
Hes doing his best to keep Ron defending and not shooting unless hes open

He made Smush an NBA player for a WHOLE year

How many players did KG make better in Minny? Spreewell & Cassell? Didnt everyone else run away.

Kobe is the bad cop Fish is the good cop works pretty good. Kobe demands maximum effort and breaks down bad habits. Fish is patient enough to teach them how. Kobe only will compliment a player if they are working their ass off.

[Magicontinues]

With Kobe, the only player in his career that I think of as being better at his side is Ariza. ?

Smush Parker, Ariza, Made Pau a championship type player, Fisher went elsewhere didn't do anything until coming back. That's as many as you claim Jordan made better.

Fact is, Kobe makes teams better, his record for championships speaks for it'self, He is clutch, he wins games, he gets the ball to players so they can score, that you don't see this shows you are just a silly hater, one of many. And you don't really know the game of basketball, you admit you don't watch him much, but create this thread?

[SashAlex]

A legit Kobe question from the other side. Please understand this is a respectful question. I don't watch a great many Laker's games because I hate them, but I do respect them.

It's always said that great players make other players around them better. As someone who has watched a ton of NBA basketball in the last 20 years, I've seen this from many different teams. Some times it's vets and sometimes it's younger players who need guidance, but they are guys that you can tell really play better with /because of their star player.

Jordan had Kerr and Paxton and Kukoc and BJ Armstrong.

Magic had Worthy and Cooper and Byron Scott.

Duncan had Bowen and Parker.

KG has Glenn Davis and Rondo who have clearly followed his approach to the game.

With Kobe, the only player in his career that I think of as being better at his side is Ariza. While I don't doubt the leadership that ABC/ESPN keep telling me he exhibits, there aren't any players that I really see his presence having significantly improved.

I know that he "creates open looks" and "leads" and those are expected of a star with his talent and ability. But who does he click with that plays at a higher level with / because of him?

I wish I could tell you smth. my heart wants to say right now, but I'll keep it in peace.

Strange that it's coming from a Celtic fan right now ?!

[ahwi_quacoe]

I always laugh when people talk about Jordan like he was this mentor figure ........
Jordan;s teammate's hated him and feared him ......... they were too scared to let him down ....
Jordan was the true Alpha Male that everyone wanted to be like and around . Kobe is a different personality ........ He wants to win yes , but you don't see him berating his teammates like Jordan did ....

Kobe unfortunately has played with so many yonug guys since Shaq left who still can not embrace their roles and execute them as efficiently and diligently like the Jordanaires did....
Farmar still thinks he is a star
Lamar is still lazy and drifts through games coasting
PAu still chokes when confronted by another skilfull player who plays with aggression
Bynum is still inconsistent , and plagues by injuries
Kwame Brown just couldn't get it together
Smush Parker is like having John Starks competing against MJ ... but on your own team
Devean George was only good when you had Shaq and you could stash him in a corner to get wide open looks
KAreem Rush sucked

The only guys who are consistent and embraced their roles during Kobe's era are FIsher and Ariza ...
YOU want to blame Kobe for this crap ????????
Give Kobe an Iguodala , or a Ginobili
Gibe Kobe a Joakim Noah , or even a Varejao ......
These are guys who embrace and excell in their roles .......

[Slava]

I think every player to come into this team has averaged career highs in one season or another.

[Jase]

Common sense: Kobe is a great player regardless of how good he makes his teammates.

[Kilroy]

Rose, Wade, LeBron, Mello, Howard, Bosh...

He's made all those guys better too... Pretty much everyone who played with him in Beijing... They all said as much.

I think he's clearly made Gasol better... He's made Artest more focused. I think Shannon Brown is better for playing with Kobe.

I think everyone on that team has learned from Kobe what it truely takes to be a winner in the NBA.

I think what you're seeing more than anything is guys who aren't the greatest fit in their roles on the team. Outside of Pau, Fish, and Artest, the rest of the team is a bit of a talented hodge-podge of players/personalities that aren't really perfectly suited to the role they're in... Phil and all make it work pretty well but I think most fans would like to see improvements across the board.

[Jase]

Rose, Wade, LeBron, Mello, Howard, Bosh...

He's made all those guys better too... Pretty much everyone who played with him in Beijing... They all said as much.

I think he's clearly made Gasol better... He's made Artest more focused. I think Shannon Brown is better for playing with Kobe.

I think everyone on that team has learned from Kobe what it truely takes to be a winner in the NBA.

I think what you're seeing more than anything is guys who aren't the greatest fit in their roles on the team. Outside of Pau, Fish, and Artest, the rest of the team is a bit of a talented hodge-podge of players/personalities that aren't really perfectly suited to the role they're in... Phil and all make it work pretty well but I think most fans would like to see improvements across the board.

All very valid points. No one really heard about Shannon Brown until recently. Gasol is about as good a player as he's ever been. Fisher is a staple on the Lakers. Artest hasn't done anything terribly moronic while under Kobe's watch.

[buckybadgerfan]

Rose, Wade, LeBron, Mello, Howard, Bosh...

He's made all those guys better too... Pretty much everyone who played with him in Beijing... They all said as much.

I think he's clearly made Gasol better... He's made Artest more focused. I think Shannon Brown is better for playing with Kobe.

I think everyone on that team has learned from Kobe what it truely takes to be a winner in the NBA.

I think what you're seeing more than anything is guys who aren't the greatest fit in their roles on the team. Outside of Pau, Fish, and Artest, the rest of the team is a bit of a talented hodge-podge of players/personalities that aren't really perfectly suited to the role they're in... Phil and all make it work pretty well but I think most fans would like to see improvements across the board.

True that.

Even Lamar has difficulty defining his role at times.
I'm not a Laker fan but I find it funny how Kobe-haters continue to appear out of nowhere with the same stupid questions that the media has discussed for nearly a decade. Where have you been hiding if your such a fan of basketball?
I'm no Kobe apologist but they guy needs to be given credit. When he doesn't lash out at his teammates then he is criticized as not being a vocal leader (i.e. Jordan). When he does berate his teammates then he is criticized as being selfish. Fact is he won rings with different players many of whom have never truly developed roles.

My props to Artest (a alpha male) who has complimented Kobe surprisingly well.
You want to know about Kobe's ability to lead and improve his peers--> look at quotes from his teammates, coach Jackson and the media. Plenty of stories and clips on his leadership ability.
Like MJ, Kobe continues to coach his teammates during the game. BIGTIME LEADER.

[buckybadgerfan]

But to answer your question simply.

Who has developed into a role player and has played better with/because of Kobe---> DFish
Both came into the league together but DFish developed into a clutch shooter and tough guy only after Kobe had already made his impact on the team. And honestly only Fish played next to Kobe long enough to develop into a true sidekick.

Don't even bother to argue that DFish is on the same talent level or leadership level of Kobe. He's not the one on the team directing and coaching others about strategy. Only one of them will enter the HOF and it won't be Fish's image hanging on the halls for all to see.

[H00PDREAMS]

I have been to several games and watched the bench Kobe is more of the mentor on the team the on the floor coach.

I saw Odom and Bynum chewing out other players on the team often. Kobe and Fish are the authority figures it seemed to me.

Someone said it already in this thread that Kobe won with TRUE role players. I agree. He won early surrounded by grounded veterans. I agree. That what he is used to. Just listen to his comments.

'If I have to tell 'em then they don't deserve to be champions.'

He expects them to play like veterans. He expects Pau to play like the captain of Spain's National Team. he expects Artest to play like Defensive Player of the year and the guy on the Rockets who scored 30pts a game. Kobe expects Odom to be that player who got the HEAT to the playoffs with youngin' Wade in tow, back in the day when they didn't have any SUPERSTARS on the team.

Unlike MJ, Kobe, wasn't punked by Worthy and Perkins and others as when at UNC. Jordan said that those guys beat up on him in practice and were pretty tough on him if he didn't keep up or play well. I think that experience was like boot camp to Jordan and when he came to the Pros he noticed no one else had that toughness on the floor so he brought it with him.

Kobe on the other hand was surrounded by harden veterans who didn't need toughening up or lecturing. Fisher said the vets on the team forced him and Kobe to become tight because they didn't really see Kobe as one of the guys. They saw him as a somewhat opportunist who was along for the ride. Until he began to make them see he was more than Jerry West experiment. Kobe earned his stripes by knowing his role, thus he expects the same out of this team.

[DubaLakers]

Outside of the Lakers starters and Lamar the Lakers stink. Add to that Lamar and Ron aren't the sharpest players in the league. Could our bench guys go to a crappy team and be better, sure, they'd get more minutes and shine a little brighter, but they play for the best team in the West.

No one else in the league can score like Kobe can possibly in the history of the game, so yes it's harder to play with Kobe than most because he thinks every shot is a gimme, where as others may make that pass, but the Lakers adjust well.

He clicks well with Bynum, Pau and Derek, because they are bright tough players (don't tell me Pau isn't tough he's taking a beating down there as well he carried the frontline beautifully all of last year). Are they better because of Kobe's influence, how could they not be.

You aren't out of the woods yet OP, go Lakers! I'd be surprised if they let the Celtics butcher the Lakers all game in LA, like they did in Boston, but we'll soon see.

[supaflash]

3 straight finals says he makes his teammates a lot better...


During any single game he's always riding the fine line between dominating by scoring and facilitating. Sometimes, especially against tough defenses like Boston, Kobe shooting is our best option every time down the court. He's always shown willingness to involve everyone and relish in the teams success, but guys have to step up because Kobe won't baby anyone. He's not quite the **** alpha that MJ was, but he's still alpha and he won't just give guys opportunities, he forces them to step up and take it, which is honestly why I think this team does as well as it does vs teams like Cleveland where Bron just does everything and makes everything happy happy funtime during the season.

Kobe the last few seasons especially has become an excellent leader and teammate and has picked his spots much much better. Occasionally, like with the finger issue and still shooting, he still reverts, but we have no idea what goes on in practices and game planning that promotes some of that. Its a tough place to be a good teammate and liked but still also be a demanding leader. Jordan didn't care about the team camaraderie, just winning. Kobe's still all about winning, but he's learned to embrace the team portion a little more imo.

[tkb]

A legit Kobe question from the other side. Please understand this is a respectful question. I don't watch a great many Laker's games because I hate them, but I do respect them.

It's always said that great players make other players around them better. As someone who has watched a ton of NBA basketball in the last 20 years, I've seen this from many different teams. Some times it's vets and sometimes it's younger players who need guidance, but they are guys that you can tell really play better with /because of their star player.

Jordan had Kerr and Paxton and Kukoc and BJ Armstrong.

Magic had Worthy and Cooper and Byron Scott.

Duncan had Bowen and Parker.

KG has Glenn Davis and Rondo who have clearly followed his approach to the game.

With Kobe, the only player in his career that I think of as being better at his side is Ariza. While I don't doubt the leadership that ABC/ESPN keep telling me he exhibits, there aren't any players that I really see his presence having significantly improved.

I know that he "creates open looks" and "leads" and those are expected of a star with his talent and ability. But who does he click with that plays at a higher level with / because of him?

If you look at his teammates scoring efficiency when they were a teammate of his compared to when they were not, his impact is pretty increcible. Bigger than guys like Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon etc. Obviously this system is a bit flawed, but at least it gives you an indication. Kobe makes his teammates WAY more efficient from the floor. Just look at Gasol for instance. Suddenly went from 50-ish % from the floor to 55-60 %.