ImageImageImageImageImage

D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY!

Moderators: Kilroy, Danny Darko, TyCobb

MensRea
Banned User
Posts: 167
And1: 4
Joined: Nov 09, 2012

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#21 » by MensRea » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:34 am

supaflash wrote:I'm talking systems other then the triangle. The Spurs had a run with an inside out style, but won more on defense and the talent of their guys. Houston won playing inside out with Hakeem and shooters. Other then the tri there really hasn't been any one system that's been more successful than another. It comes down to the right fit for the players and 90% of the time a superstar that can take the team over the top when the system breaks down and the pressure is on.


If we're talking systems other than the triangle, every other system combined has won less championships then the triangle offense over the last 20 years.

Seriously.

So you are probably thinking well that makes my argument right there... but to me it was never the triangle that won. The triangle was brutal at times to watch, both for the Bulls and the Lakers and I watched all of those Bulls runs. It's a good offense that works with good smart players and good pieces but if it's so end all why has no one else ever been successful with it? Because they didn't have Jordan or Kobe and Shaq, Pip, Pau, etc.


But the Lakers DO have those players. Dwight would have went ape s*** in the triangle. Nash doesn't need the triangle to be productive, and the misconception about Phil is that he ran the triangle 100% of the time. That's just not true. Nash is smarter than MB in that he wouldn't try to force the triangle down their throats. There were be plenty of opportunities for Nash's free flowing style, and I think Nash would have been fine. Where the triangle would have helped is in June, when we're trying to grind out wins against the Heat, and the games aren't so free flowing. I understand Dantoni's offense is supposed to be a half court offense, but with the triangle, you are prepared for all situations. The players read and react rather than force play's A, B, or C.

If you want proof, all you have to do is look at the Lakers / Suns matchups over the last 7 years. Phil damn near knocked the Suns out with Kobe, Kwame, Smush and Luke. In the Lakers championship years, other than Kobe and Pau, everyone else were just role players. That includes Odom, and Bynum. When it gets hairy, when you need a score, the triangle is the go to offense when done right.

In theory what Mike runs is not all that far removed from the Tri in that they are both a flowing read and react system, they just cater to a different style and set of players. The tri is also not hugely far off from the Princeton and we saw how well that was going... Both the Tri and the Princeton are more deliberate systems designed to get guys in specific spots and create cuts and reads based largely on high and low post sets to force the defense to pick it's poison. D'antoni on the other hand creates shots based on pick and rolls and spacing, utilizing player's strengths. And I'm in total agreement with him that when you have this much talent that needs the ball you create more possessions to more effectively use each talent more fully and minimize the effect of mistakes.


I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. There was nothing deliberate about the triangle other than starting from the inside. After the entry pass, and not necessarily always from the block, the triangle was an unpredictable, combustible explosion of creativity, that when mastered, turned everyone on the floor into a threat. MB's Princeton was either a post up or a high screen pick and roll. That's all you got. Dantoni's offense is chaos on the floor and very effective, but susceptible to streakiness and can be bottled up in the playoffs. The triangle shows you how to get out of the bottle.

If it were just Kobe and Dwight I'd say yeah, the Tri would be better. Slow the game down and minimize possessions, depend on the defense, so the reliance on just those two ala Kobe Shaq becomes more significant and less on the other players, but with these guys we need to spread the ball around.


I'm not so sure. I guess we'll see in June. Hope you're right.
b shaw20
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,381
And1: 60
Joined: Apr 29, 2007

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#22 » by b shaw20 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:47 am

MensRae wrote:

"...but I stand by what I said. Phil was the right choice. I've come to grips with the decision, but we made the wrong choice."

You made alot of great points about why YOU would have picked PJ but to say that we made the wrong choice? How can you just a few games into the new regime? Its the equivalent of picking between 2 movies and saying you picked the best one 2 minutes into the one you chose.

if we are built to win now or in short term, what if we win 1 chip in next 3 yrs? 2 chips?? 3 chips???

none or 1 in 3 yrs may raise the question that we underachieved. But frankly, IMO PJs triangle was no guarantee of a ring, let alone 2 or 3. And since nothing is a given, I prefer to watch good, up tempo team basketball over the course of the year and let the chips fall as they may.
User avatar
Danny Darko
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 18,615
And1: 5,974
Joined: Jun 24, 2005
         

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#23 » by Danny Darko » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:47 am

i guess you'll have to accept that Mitch really did think Mike was the best option to win now. Also, delay or not the Lakers are already scoring through the roof and having fun after a few practices and games of the D'Antoni system.
Image
User avatar
EArl
RealGM
Posts: 49,975
And1: 13,473
Joined: Mar 14, 2012
Location: Columbus
   

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#24 » by EArl » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:30 am

I think as the team is currently built, D'antoni's system is the better fit than Phil's.

Where have you been DD?
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing, Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
MensRea
Banned User
Posts: 167
And1: 4
Joined: Nov 09, 2012

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#25 » by MensRea » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:04 am

I'll reserve judgment until after June. Hope I'm wrong.
mjba
Analyst
Posts: 3,002
And1: 121
Joined: Jul 19, 2009

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#26 » by mjba » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:13 am

skip bayless was right

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Hgplp911M&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
Stebo_SSK
Banned User
Posts: 1,626
And1: 22
Joined: Apr 06, 2012

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#27 » by Stebo_SSK » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:14 pm

mjba wrote:skip bayless was right

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Hgplp911M&feature=relmfu[/youtube]


People still watch that troll show?
Michael Lucky
RealGM
Posts: 15,140
And1: 6,789
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
       

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#28 » by Michael Lucky » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:14 pm

The saddest part is that everyone is blaming Jim when it was Jerry pushing for D'Antoni. lol
User avatar
stunnar0b
Starter
Posts: 2,476
And1: 121
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Location: JUST OG

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#29 » by stunnar0b » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:14 pm

Stebo_SSK wrote:
People still watch that troll show?


Isn't it your favorite show
User avatar
Danny Darko
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 18,615
And1: 5,974
Joined: Jun 24, 2005
         

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#30 » by Danny Darko » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:30 pm

eablinksum wrote:I think as the team is currently built, D'antoni's system is the better fit than Phil's.

Where have you been DD?


I'm here a lot. I just mostly lurk
Image
User avatar
DEEP3CL
RealGM
Posts: 27,899
And1: 3,207
Joined: Jul 23, 2005
Location: LOS ANGELES,CA.
     

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#31 » by DEEP3CL » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:39 am

supaflash wrote:Sorry MensRea but you are wrong.

Hesitation to commit is completely different then the physical ability to be able to be on the sidelines.

This isn't JUST about the championship window, which is still a huge piece, but it's about the future of the franchise. This is the Lakers, we don't just have windows, we're an institution. Management wanted a correct fit for now and a commitment for the future for Dwight and the 2014/2015 plans. Phil was not the best candidate for either IMO.

I love Phil and what he did, but I did not want to see this team try and learn and run the triangle. The triangle was getting worn out as it was and we don't have the personnel for it anymore. I don't' think anyone wanted to see Nash relegated to the triangle nor Dwight be an iso post option. This team just wasn't built for that system and trying to learn it on the fly would have been bad news and caused more strife then anything. Phil was checked out the last season he was here and he has never been a great defensive coach, and honestly he's never been a great X and O coach either, he's gotten out coached several times his last few years. Phil's biggest assets were the mental control of players, a system that the team was built for and implemented, his preparation for games, and his manipulation of refs and opponents. And part of his success is that he had 4 of the greatest players of all time at the primes of their careers and pretty good fortune with health of all those teams.

I don't think this team with the aged veterans and with guys like Nash and Kobe need the mental and personality control that Phil brought nor do they need the confidence. These guys know they can win and expect to when they play right. I also don't think Phil's mind games with the media would work with Dwight, that could have been a strenuous situation. It worked for a while with Pau but was already starting to strain him. It takes a long time to build the team correctly for the triangle as well as actually learning it and implementing it correctly and I don't think these were the right guys for it. I also think that other coaches and the league became used to and weary of Phil's tactics with the media and refs. IMO I really don't think that Phil was the right guy for this team at this time. Maybe at the beginning of the summer... but not now... and not if he couldn't commit to a plan for the next few years.

I think management made the right choice. Mike has a great raport with Nash and Kobe already and he has pieces in a defense and Kobe that he never had before. I was leaning a little towards Sloan myself, I thought his inside screening and pick and roll game would have been great for Nash, Pau, and Dwight, but Mike's open style will be great for this team. They are all good ball players, the more we release them to play the better. I personally was sick of watching the triangle struggle along, we won more because of Kobe and a great supporting cast then any system. Phil was sentimental and like most things in life you need to let sentiment go to move forward.

And for the stupid argument 'his system never won' just stop. How many systems have actually won? And what was the real difference? Mavs won with a spread jump shooting style, last years finalists both played up tempo small ball, SA had the league's best record and in the WCF with a pick and roll spread floor style and Mike had plenty of success in the playoffs considering his team had horrible defensive players and no real go to superstar outside of Nash himself, who really shouldn't be your go to guy down the stretch.

This team will be fun, and honestly these guys are focused on winning so bad they need a little fun, but don't let that fool you how much Mike and everyone else want to win.
Excellent post Supa, you hit so many nails on the head.
VETERAN LAKERS FAN

SmartWentCrazy wrote:It's extremely unlikely that they end up in the top 3.They're probably better off trying to win and giving Philly the 8th pick than tanking and giving them the 4th.
User avatar
Mamba Venom
RealGM
Posts: 17,979
And1: 582
Joined: Sep 07, 2005
Location: California
Contact:

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#32 » by Mamba Venom » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:37 am

DEEP3CL wrote:
supaflash wrote:Sorry MensRea but you are wrong.

Hesitation to commit is completely different then the physical ability to be able to be on the sidelines.

This isn't JUST about the championship window, which is still a huge piece, but it's about the future of the franchise. This is the Lakers, we don't just have windows, we're an institution. Management wanted a correct fit for now and a commitment for the future for Dwight and the 2014/2015 plans. Phil was not the best candidate for either IMO.

I love Phil and what he did, but I did not want to see this team try and learn and run the triangle. The triangle was getting worn out as it was and we don't have the personnel for it anymore. I don't' think anyone wanted to see Nash relegated to the triangle nor Dwight be an iso post option. This team just wasn't built for that system and trying to learn it on the fly would have been bad news and caused more strife then anything. Phil was checked out the last season he was here and he has never been a great defensive coach, and honestly he's never been a great X and O coach either, he's gotten out coached several times his last few years. Phil's biggest assets were the mental control of players, a system that the team was built for and implemented, his preparation for games, and his manipulation of refs and opponents. And part of his success is that he had 4 of the greatest players of all time at the primes of their careers and pretty good fortune with health of all those teams.

I don't think this team with the aged veterans and with guys like Nash and Kobe need the mental and personality control that Phil brought nor do they need the confidence. These guys know they can win and expect to when they play right. I also don't think Phil's mind games with the media would work with Dwight, that could have been a strenuous situation. It worked for a while with Pau but was already starting to strain him. It takes a long time to build the team correctly for the triangle as well as actually learning it and implementing it correctly and I don't think these were the right guys for it. I also think that other coaches and the league became used to and weary of Phil's tactics with the media and refs. IMO I really don't think that Phil was the right guy for this team at this time. Maybe at the beginning of the summer... but not now... and not if he couldn't commit to a plan for the next few years.

I think management made the right choice. Mike has a great raport with Nash and Kobe already and he has pieces in a defense and Kobe that he never had before. I was leaning a little towards Sloan myself, I thought his inside screening and pick and roll game would have been great for Nash, Pau, and Dwight, but Mike's open style will be great for this team. They are all good ball players, the more we release them to play the better. I personally was sick of watching the triangle struggle along, we won more because of Kobe and a great supporting cast then any system. Phil was sentimental and like most things in life you need to let sentiment go to move forward.

And for the stupid argument 'his system never won' just stop. How many systems have actually won? And what was the real difference? Mavs won with a spread jump shooting style, last years finalists both played up tempo small ball, SA had the league's best record and in the WCF with a pick and roll spread floor style and Mike had plenty of success in the playoffs considering his team had horrible defensive players and no real go to superstar outside of Nash himself, who really shouldn't be your go to guy down the stretch.

This team will be fun, and honestly these guys are focused on winning so bad they need a little fun, but don't let that fool you how much Mike and everyone else want to win.
Excellent post Supa, you hit so many nails on the head.

Like a carpenter JC was a carpenter.
Lakers are 22-3 in OT last 6 seasons:Kobe best OT closer!
MensRea
Banned User
Posts: 167
And1: 4
Joined: Nov 09, 2012

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#33 » by MensRea » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:36 am

Nights like tonight is exactly why Dantoni was not the right choice to coach this team. He's trying to run them into the ground on the 2nd night of a back to back on the road, and everyone is wondering why we can't play defense.
LAKESHOW
RealGM
Posts: 18,051
And1: 4,470
Joined: Mar 14, 2002
Location: HOME OF THE 17 TIME WORLD CHAMPIONS!

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#34 » by LAKESHOW » Wed Dec 5, 2012 9:01 am

DrewBynum77 wrote:let it go, man.
Home of the 17 Time World Champions
LAKESHOW
RealGM
Posts: 18,051
And1: 4,470
Joined: Mar 14, 2002
Location: HOME OF THE 17 TIME WORLD CHAMPIONS!

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#35 » by LAKESHOW » Sun Dec 9, 2012 6:18 pm

Tasp wrote:
DrewBynum77 wrote:let it go, man.
Home of the 17 Time World Champions
LAKESHOW
RealGM
Posts: 18,051
And1: 4,470
Joined: Mar 14, 2002
Location: HOME OF THE 17 TIME WORLD CHAMPIONS!

Re: D'Antoni delay, ok. Phil Jackson Delays . . . NO WAY! 

Post#36 » by LAKESHOW » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:58 pm

GAME TIME wrote:
Tasp wrote:
DrewBynum77 wrote:let it go, man.
Home of the 17 Time World Champions

Return to Los Angeles Lakers