Ramona Shelburne on Magic, Jim, Mitch & Jeannie

[dockingsched]

I think it's sad that in order to try to win some PR battle that this hit piece was put out there on Mitch. And people expect Jerry West to want to come back to this?

[ALL HAIL]

Kupchak is overrated. Always has been.

[crazyeights]

I get that ideally none of this would be public, but Dr. Buss left us with a two-headed monster and the two heads don't speak. It's the hands his kids, us fans were all dealt.

I have respect for Mitch, but have spent the last 10 years more decoding puzzling moves than witnessing great ones. Love the guy as a sort of ironic bball cult icon but let's face it: he has some serious defincies.

He's great at trades, horrible at free agency, and only until recently strong in the draft.

If behind the scenes in the league we're seen as behind the times, it's our bball opps at fault.

I get that people don't like this stuff being aired publicaly, but if we did t hear these kind of damning stories of incompetence and we ultimately fired Mitch, then we'd have no idea why. I think PR is necessary here, especially when the Buss family doesn't communicate.

I used to be skeptical of Jeanie, but IMO she's making the right moves here and she's taking this very seriously. We need to move this franchise in the 21st century. Mitch and Jim have to go.

[ALL HAIL]

I get that ideally none of this would be public, but Dr. Buss left us with a two-headed monster and the two heads don't speak. It's the hands his kids, us fans were all dealt.

I have respect for Mitch, but have spent the last 10 years more decoding puzzling moves than witnessing great ones. Love the guy as a sort of ironic bball cult icon but let's face it: he has some serious defincies.

He's great at trades, horrible at free agency, and only until recently strong in the draft.

If behind the scenes in the league we're seen as behind the times, it's our bball opps at fault.

I get that people don't like this stuff being aired publicaly, but if we did t hear these kind of damning stories of incompetence and we ultimately fired Mitch, then we'd have no idea why. I think PR is necessary here, especially when the Buss family doesn't communicate.

I used to be skeptical of Jeanie, but IMO she's making the right moves here and she's taking this very seriously. We need to move this franchise in the 21st century. Mitch and Jim have to go.

Truth.

[One Love]

Truth Part Duece...

[Kilroy]

I get that ideally none of this would be public, but Dr. Buss left us with a two-headed monster and the two heads don't speak. It's the hands his kids, us fans were all dealt.

I have respect for Mitch, but have spent the last 10 years more decoding puzzling moves than witnessing great ones. Love the guy as a sort of ironic bball cult icon but let's face it: he has some serious defincies.

He's great at trades, horrible at free agency, and only until recently strong in the draft.

If behind the scenes in the league we're seen as behind the times, it's our bball opps at fault.

I get that people don't like this stuff being aired publicaly, but if we did t hear these kind of damning stories of incompetence and we ultimately fired Mitch, then we'd have no idea why. I think PR is necessary here, especially when the Buss family doesn't communicate.

I used to be skeptical of Jeanie, but IMO she's making the right moves here and she's taking this very seriously. We need to move this franchise in the 21st century. Mitch and Jim have to go.

Truth.

I don't disagree with Crazy's take on this story... But it's only 'truth' if you ignore the rather obvious fact that this story, like so many of these stories lately, are being spoon-fed to the media by Jeanie... Clearly one of the heads of the 'two headed monster'...

So why would we not just completely discount it as a self-serving attempt by 1/2 of the "problem" to transfer responsibility to the other half...

I think what's going on here is Jeanie essentially telling Jim "Step down, or we're going after Mitch instead."... I mean, you have to ask yourself, even if it's true, "Does it make anything better, knowing it? Isn't there now, a much bigger problem to worry about?"

My take is, if this is true, I can't see a way for this organization to be a functional entity until the Buss family is no longer involved. How much can we expect from a new GM in this environment? Even if he reports to Magic/Jeanie instead of Jim?

[stan francisco]

Sorry but this reads just like the Jim Buss bash articles from last year... Shelburne is clearly being fed information, and it seems almost certain Jeanie is that mole...
So it seems like she realized she couldn't get rid of Jim and is now turning her sights on Mitch.

Mitch doesn't even want another job in the NBA, he almost retired 2 years ago. If they don't beg him to stay, he'll just retire and let them deal with the mess.

Mitc h is a HIGHLY under-rated GM and we will all realize it if he's gone...

Mitch is the stabilizing, voice of reason in this FO... He's the Ice-Man... You remove that and all bets are off with these knuckle-heads.

This.

Mitch: VP
West Jr: GM
Magic: Advisory Consultant
Jim: other department, role, (maybe w John Black)

DO IT JEANNIE!

[lake_show]

I get that ideally none of this would be public, but Dr. Buss left us with a two-headed monster and the two heads don't speak. It's the hands his kids, us fans were all dealt.

I have respect for Mitch, but have spent the last 10 years more decoding puzzling moves than witnessing great ones. Love the guy as a sort of ironic bball cult icon but let's face it: he has some serious defincies.

He's great at trades, horrible at free agency, and only until recently strong in the draft.

If behind the scenes in the league we're seen as behind the times, it's our bball opps at fault.

I get that people don't like this stuff being aired publicaly, but if we did t hear these kind of damning stories of incompetence and we ultimately fired Mitch, then we'd have no idea why. I think PR is necessary here, especially when the Buss family doesn't communicate.

I used to be skeptical of Jeanie, but IMO she's making the right moves here and she's taking this very seriously. We need to move this franchise in the 21st century. Mitch and Jim have to go.

Truth.

I don't disagree with Crazy's take on this story... But it's only 'truth' if you ignore the rather obvious fact that this story, like so many of these stories lately, are being spoon-fed to the media by Jeanie... Clearly one of the heads of the 'two headed monster'...

So why would we not just completely discount it as a self-serving attempt by 1/2 of the "problem" to transfer responsibility to the other half...

I think what's going on here is Jeanie essentially telling Jim "Step down, or we're going after Mitch instead."... I mean, you have to ask yourself, even if it's true, "Does it make anything better, knowing it? Isn't there now, a much bigger problem to worry about?"

My take is, if this is true, I can't see a way for this organization to be a functional entity until the Buss family is no longer involved. How much can we expect from a new GM in this environment? Even if he reports to Magic/Jeanie instead of Jim?

Regardless if this story is "truth" or not, Crazy is right that Mitch has been horrible in free agency. Doesn't matter if we like the guy or not, the "truth" is he's been great in the draft but his free agency moves have been detrimental to this team. Does that alone mean he should be fired?... No. But if you're really looking to uphold your promise to move this franchise to the next level that's where any good franchise would start. Is he the right guy to continue to drive this ship?... Not sure he is.

All that article is doing is pointing to his weaknesses in free agency... Whether you believe the story or not doesn't matter, because all you have to do is look at his body of work and judge him from there. But if you do, you'll realize he sucks in free agency. Regardless of that article. And, that's the most important thing. Not whether the article is true or not.

[madmaxmedia]

I think it's sad that in order to try to win some PR battle that this hit piece was put out there on Mitch. And people expect Jerry West to want to come back to this?

I'm starting to think one possible outcome could actually be firing Mitch and hiring a new GM, but keeping Jim Buss as VP of basketball operations. But any great GM candidates are not going to take the job without clear delineation of responsibilities and most importantly authority to make moves. Right now, any time you hear about Laker basketball operations, it's about the Jim and Mitch show.

I have some sympathy for Jim Buss and it would have been nice if things had worked out better, but they haven't.

[Kilroy]

Truth.

I don't disagree with Crazy's take on this story... But it's only 'truth' if you ignore the rather obvious fact that this story, like so many of these stories lately, are being spoon-fed to the media by Jeanie... Clearly one of the heads of the 'two headed monster'...

So why would we not just completely discount it as a self-serving attempt by 1/2 of the "problem" to transfer responsibility to the other half...

I think what's going on here is Jeanie essentially telling Jim "Step down, or we're going after Mitch instead."... I mean, you have to ask yourself, even if it's true, "Does it make anything better, knowing it? Isn't there now, a much bigger problem to worry about?"

My take is, if this is true, I can't see a way for this organization to be a functional entity until the Buss family is no longer involved. How much can we expect from a new GM in this environment? Even if he reports to Magic/Jeanie instead of Jim?

Regardless if this story is "truth" or not, Crazy is right that Mitch has been horrible in free agency. Doesn't matter if we like the guy or not, the "truth" is he's been great in the draft but his free agency moves have been detrimental to this team. Does that alone mean he should be fired?... No. But if you're really looking to uphold your promise to move this franchise to the next level that's where any good franchise would start. Is he the right guy to continue to drive this ship?... Not sure he is.

All that article is doing is pointing to his weaknesses in free agency... Whether you believe the story or not doesn't matter, because all you have to do is look at his body of work and judge him from there. But if you do, you'll realize he sucks in free agency. Regardless of that article. And, that's the most important thing. Not whether the article is true or not.

That's my point... I don't know how you can defend this argument. I've never seen anyone do it yet. "Mitch is horrible in Free Agency because he hasn't landed a big name free agent." is a pretty hollow argument.

Especially when you think back on all the outstanding 1 to 2 year vet min signings he's had... Or how he's been able to avoid signing the completely terrible contracts some of the others have, and allowing us to keep having the cap space to sign 1 or 2 max players year after year...

And how about this for a "What if?"... What if all those rumors about our pursuit of Melo and Howard and ______ etc, were really leaked to the press by Jeanie as a way to assure the Network Partners that the Lakers were 'doing whatever possible to enhance the brand?' Meaning not that we were at the table, which would be expected, but all that "Lakers are ALL-IN for Melo" nonsense that was swirling at the time? That would seem to line right up with the Billboard debacle, wouldn't it? And be another time a no-win situation was created for Jim/Mitch by Jeanie...
Not saying that's what actually happened, but it's reasonable enough to not be completely discounted either... And therefore it's just about as valid as the "Mitch sucks in Free Agency," argument...

The fact of the matter is, for the last 6 or so years, the Lakers as a team have sucked in Free Agency, because they've been pretty awful on the court...
I'm sure Mitch could have signed more guys but he probably would have had to over-pay for middling talent... And that would have been even worse than not signing anyone.

[crazyeights]

Look Mitch is a great negotiator of trades. I trust that he wouldn't do something and panic, which is more than I can say for many GMs, but the free agency stuff goes way back. It's not about missing Dwight Howard or Melo, he's been awful at giving guys long term deals and overpaying--and it started when we were the premiere team in the league under the old CBA.

From these stories, it appears Mitch is great at trades because he doesn't have to deal with agents so much. Seems to be he's out of touch when it comes to that.

I wouldn't rush to be rid of him completely if you can't get a star GM to replace him, but let's be **** real--Mitch and Jim have not been impressing free agents. It's a huge issue. And don't try to pin this mess on Jeanie, girl didn't make up the Aldridge story, that **** was embarrassing. As have been many others: the analytics side, the bad facilities, firings of Lester/Shaw, the Fisher trade, the slow torturing or Pau, Phil Jackson, the Kobe Farewell Tour, 4 year deal to Sacre, never signing defenders, trading for Nash, then Dwight, then not pitching MDA to Dwight before signing him...I mean there are more **** ups than I can even remember.

Now Mitch had had some hard times with the passing of his daughter, and he's had some great days as a Laker GM, but IMO he isn't doing enough, he's lost his edge and if our concern here is putting a winning program on the floor then change should be welcome.

I have been a huge Mitch homer, defender, decoder--dude is done as our GM. Now should we fire him straight up? Maybe not. We have to see what kind of talent we could poach. Mitch might be the VP, but the rumors about Jerry West interested in an advisory role and that changes things. Maybe it's Mitch and the Wests.

Regardless: Mitch and Jim need to be broken up. We need some fresh blood in there but also some experience. I'm not sold that we want Ryan West negotiating his first deal with chips like Ingram, D'Angelo, Zubac, Randle, and Nance on the table.

[Kilroy]

The only evidence we have that "Jim and Mitch have not been impressing Free Agents" consists of rumors everyone denies... You have to ask yourself who starts those rumors in the first place... Pissed off Player Agents who didn't get what they promised their players they'd get from Mitch? Jeanie?
Obviously, it's Mitch's job to piss off Agents from time to time... Comments from agents of players who didn't sign here is pure noise.

And even if they didn't impress free agents... What didn't impress the free agents? Here's the list I have:

-Kobe (Playing with/playing second to)
-Basketball reasons (Strategy, usage, end game)
- What else?

No need to discuss Kobe... It's been done...

So, how do you impress a top free agent with basketball strategy when he's essentially the only player he'd be sure was on the team? How to you tell a player that unless he can help attract another free agent, chances are the team he's going to sign with is going to suck... Bad? What possible use would an advanced statistically analytical plan of our team's proposed usage of the free agent be if signing him would essentially be step 1 in developing the game plan?



What more should he do? Smile more? Wear a nicer tie? Or is it just the product he has to sell that's the 'problem?'

[Slava]

The biggest bit of Kupchak circus was identifying and trading for Bazemore, playing him for half a season while his value increased, then declining his bird rights to pursue Melo, finally offering him $76 mil this summer, watch him tell the Lakers to go **** off and subsequently panic spending on Luol Deng. If that doesn't put your judgement and job performance in question, I don't know what else does.

[crazyeights]

The problem I'm having is people trashing Jeanie, creating alternative realities where they think she leaked things like the Aldridge meeting when in reality there's a mountain of evidence pointing toward what could be described as at worst gross incompetence and at best an outmoded working style.

Jeanie to me seems to be opening the door for change, which to me is welcome. Can't we agree on that? Something's gotta give here. I'm not looking to scapegoat Mitch, but it's time for a change. Just as it was time to hire a new coach last summer.

[Kilroy]

The biggest bit of Kupchak circus was identifying and trading for Bazemore, playing him for half a season while his value increased, then declining his bird rights to pursue Melo, finally offering him $76 mil this summer, watch him tell the Lakers to go **** off and subsequently panic spending on Luol Deng. If that doesn't put your judgement and job performance in question, I don't know what else does.

Bazemore signed a 4yr/$70M contract that's completely guaranteed... Do we know the specifics of what Mitch offered?
Deng gets $2M more over 4 years.. If you just said that, what do you think?
Deng's production is slightly lower than Bazemore's but that's apples/oranges on these 2 teams. Separated by 0.8 PER with Deng playing out of his comfort zone... But that's this season, last season, Deng was clearly better than Bazemore in almost every way.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&hint=Kent+Bazemore&player_id1_select=Kent+Bazemore&player_id1=bazemke01&y1=2016&hint=Luol+Deng&player_id2_select=Luol+Deng&y2=2016&player_id2=denglu01

There were a lot of people on this forum who thought Bazemore was a scrub and were happy to see him go... Asking him to wait to pursue a top free agent (it doesn't matter who that top free agent was) was the lesser of 2 evils between that, and paying Bazemore only to find out that that same big name free agent was ready to sign here but we couldn't anymore...

Personally, I thought keeping Bazemore on a reasonable contract was a good idea... But judging by what he got paid, that wasn't going to be an option anyway...

The problem I'm having is people trashing Jeanie, creating alternative realities where they think she leaked things like the Aldridge meeting when in reality there's a mountain of evidence pointing toward what could be described as at worst gross incompetence and at best an outmoded working style.

Jeanie to me seems to be opening the door for change, which to me is welcome. Can't we agree on that? Something's gotta give here. I'm not looking to scapegoat Mitch, but it's time for a change. Just as it was time to hire a new coach last summer.

Where's this mountain of evidence you speak of? It was a single rumor that was eventually denied by Aldridge's camp... And what did Aldridge expect the Lakers to tell him? He was essentially going to be the only starting caliber player on the team if he signed? The talk of statistical analysis of his role was asinine... He role was whatever the hell he wanted... That was one of the benefits, not a negative... I get that the lack of advanced stats played into the perception of the Lakers at the time... But didn't anyone else find that a bit too specific, convenient and coincidental?
Call it an alternative reality that Jeanie leaked it if you want... But it's hard to deny the possibility. She clearly had a lot to personally gain from the hit Jim (and Mitch) took in the public from that.

See, I don't see anything Jeanie is doing as opening the door to change. To me, it just seems like a continuing of the existing, festering problem. I never hear Jim or Mitch say anything even remotely critical of what she's doing despite some pretty big fumbles, yet she can't seem to shut up about her brother and Mitch... It's unprofessional and self serving, and does nothing to strengthen the perception of this organization...

Are we ignoring the other issue that keeps coming up in our failed pursuit of free agents? Namely the dysfunctional relationship between our owners? How does bringing in Magic in this role help any of this?

Hell, I welcome change. I hope it happens. But this just seems sooo superficial and transparent to me.

[WVlakerfan]

My biggest thing about this argument is the same people that are complaining about misses like Thomas bazemore Aldridge are the same people that think Russell and Ingram are the next superstars. Well if you get any or all of those we probably don't get russell and definitely don't get ingram. And then you are stuck in mediocrity with an aging roster and no young assets. They built a nice corps of young talent without leveraging future picks. We could very easily be the Knicks right now.

[LAKESHOW]

Look. The path were on is gonna take a while. Theres nothing new. The only thing that's getting people worked up is what we've all known. Lol Dengs play and his contract. Heck, even mozgovs earning some respect. Other than Deng's contract. That info is old and discussed here before. We've gotta ride it out and develop guys. I'm particularly excited with who I see as the next Kevin Durant. But that takes time for development.