ImageImageImageImageImage

Laker's Record and Perspective

Moderators: Kilroy, Danny Darko, TyCobb

Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,603
And1: 12,316
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#41 » by Kilroy » Thu Feb 9, 2017 10:20 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:
Kilroy wrote:I'm not saying our FO is perfect... In fact it seems pretty dysfunctional to me... But I think the negative effect of this dysfunction on the product on the court is either completely fabricated, or vastly over-blown.

That's the perspective I have of our record... We have a talent-vacuum created by Kobe deteriorating and retiring...
Nothing's changed... It's all largely to be expected.


The talent vacuum was not created only by Kobe deteriorating and retiring, not by a long shot.

-Trading for Dwight Howard, and mismanaging his time here.
-Trading for Steve Nash (and totally overpaying)
-The fallout with Pau Gasol which led to his departure
-A treadmill of head coaches
-Subpar free agent pitches (perhaps not fact, but pretty widely reported)
-Wasting a year on Kobe farewell tour- 35.8% FG% on 17 shots a game (this one is arguable but I thought it was mishandled)
-A significant risk of losing 2 of the next 3 1st round picks due to the first 2 moves above

Even if you can argue that each move was reasonable at the time, it's still a lot of bad outcomes- the kind that generally catalyze FO changes in other organizations (at least those who are doing everything they can to win.)


You say the talent vacuum didn't relate to Kobe deteriorating and retiring, and yet almost everything on your list directly relates to Kobe...

-Howard couldn't get along with Kobe... Didn't like playing second fiddle to one-legged, inefficient Kobe... But then again he hasn't really seemed happy before or since either.

-The fallout with Pau started as a fallout between him and Kobe, which eventually deteriorated to the point he was unreliable on the court and became part of a trade for Dwight and CP3 that didn't happen.. Honestly I didn't see a big difference in Pau pre failed trade vs after, other than when Kobe got injured and he got to play by himself... He looked great then.

-Trading for Nash was a reaction to the failed CP3 trade and an attempt to have Kobe, Nash, Howard while still keeping Pau... On paper, that's a gamble you have to take every time. Sure you give up prospects, but at the end of the day, are we really worse off as a result?
-It relates to 'wasting Kobe's final years' because Nash was apparently one of the few star players that wanted to play with Kobe. So the trade was also an attempt to maximize Kobe's final years, rather than waste them... Him breaking his leg was a freak think I'm not sure you can plan for.
-So risking the picks also directly relates to Kobe.

-Treadmill coaches... Kobe essentially ran Mike Brown out of town... MDA was an attempt to maximize Nash, to ease Kobe's burden... Scott was a coach Kobe respected and would accept for his victory tour and one the fans would accept and make loosing copious games in order to get a high pick, more palatable. Walton was the best available coach to replace Scott and start focusing on winning.

-Subpar FA pitches started because supposedly nobody wanted to play with Kobe... After that, it was because we had nothing really to offer but TV money.

So basically, all related to Kobe...
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...
User avatar
madmaxmedia
RealGM
Posts: 12,513
And1: 7,462
Joined: Jun 22, 2001
Location: SoCal
     

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#42 » by madmaxmedia » Thu Feb 9, 2017 10:25 pm

I didn't say that it didn't relate to Kobe, I only said that Kobe's deterioration and retirement was not the only reason for the Lakers recent lack of success.

Those are all good reasons for failing, apparently everything was inevitable and Lakers FO made all the right choices.
ALL HAIL
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,474
And1: 1,213
Joined: Dec 27, 2005

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#43 » by ALL HAIL » Thu Feb 9, 2017 11:12 pm

Kilroy wrote:
ALL HAIL wrote:Why don't you give me a few examples of, based on your formula, "definitive proof of failure" ... from any basketball GM ever. That should help me "see the whole formula".


I mean, I'm not sure what 'formula' you're talking about in all honesty, but...

Cuban essentially broke up a championship contender... Just off the top of my head. That team clearly had at least another run or 2 in it and they clearly were a worse team afterward... And nothing he's done since has really made them better.

Clips trading Kyrie Irving for Jamario Moon and Mo Williams, Doc Rivers paying his mediocre at best son 3/$35M, on a championship contender instead of bringing in talent to push them over the top.

OKC trading beard... And to a lesser extent, losing KD.

But let's keep it in-house... Dr Buss acquiescing to Shaq's trade demand... Or before that, signing GP and Malone to ring chase, and essentially over-pressuring the situation to the point of explosion.

That's all aside from the obvious Bucks trading Kareem, Philly trading Wilt, Sonics trading Pippen, etc...

These were all definitively bad MOVES... Meaning things the FOs DID that were bad for the team... Most of what we're bitching about this FO for is things they DIDN'T do... Which is essentially based on 2000' personal perception... Nothing concrete.

I mean, I hated the MDA hiring... I thought it was a bad move for the team. But at the same time I can see why they did it and I can't really blame MDA for the record... So I can't definitively say it was a failure of the FO to hire him... I also am glad we didn't end up with Phil, because we clearly didn't have the talent for his system.

I think we should have picked Okafor over Russell... My gut still tells me that was the better choice in the long run, but I understand why the FO did it and just based on both their contributions, I can't argue Okafor's the better player right now. So I may be wrong about this one...

Those are mostly trades. So you're saying this Lakers front office hasn't mad bad trades ... you're right ...

They've just sat on their thumbs and done nothing (by way of trades).

"You miss all the shots you don't take." (Did I say that right?)
Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,603
And1: 12,316
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#44 » by Kilroy » Thu Feb 9, 2017 11:31 pm

ALL HAIL wrote:
Kilroy wrote:
ALL HAIL wrote:Why don't you give me a few examples of, based on your formula, "definitive proof of failure" ... from any basketball GM ever. That should help me "see the whole formula".


I mean, I'm not sure what 'formula' you're talking about in all honesty, but...

Cuban essentially broke up a championship contender... Just off the top of my head. That team clearly had at least another run or 2 in it and they clearly were a worse team afterward... And nothing he's done since has really made them better.

Clips trading Kyrie Irving for Jamario Moon and Mo Williams, Doc Rivers paying his mediocre at best son 3/$35M, on a championship contender instead of bringing in talent to push them over the top.

OKC trading beard... And to a lesser extent, losing KD.

But let's keep it in-house... Dr Buss acquiescing to Shaq's trade demand... Or before that, signing GP and Malone to ring chase, and essentially over-pressuring the situation to the point of explosion.

That's all aside from the obvious Bucks trading Kareem, Philly trading Wilt, Sonics trading Pippen, etc...

These were all definitively bad MOVES... Meaning things the FOs DID that were bad for the team... Most of what we're bitching about this FO for is things they DIDN'T do... Which is essentially based on 2000' personal perception... Nothing concrete.

I mean, I hated the MDA hiring... I thought it was a bad move for the team. But at the same time I can see why they did it and I can't really blame MDA for the record... So I can't definitively say it was a failure of the FO to hire him... I also am glad we didn't end up with Phil, because we clearly didn't have the talent for his system.

I think we should have picked Okafor over Russell... My gut still tells me that was the better choice in the long run, but I understand why the FO did it and just based on both their contributions, I can't argue Okafor's the better player right now. So I may be wrong about this one...

Those are mostly trades. So you're saying this Lakers front office hasn't mad bad trades ... you're right ...

They've just sat on their thumbs and done nothing (by way of trades).

"You miss all the shots you don't take." (Did I say that right?)


Lets be honest.... Outside of the last few seasons, we've basically nothing to trade... If we're going to base our theories about the FO on rumors... There have been plenty of rumors that the Lakers were exploring interesting trades... Just because they didn't come to fruition doesn't equate to sitting on their thumbs... By all accounts, Mitch and the Lakers have been very active in trade talks whenever they've had something to trade...

Am I personally satisfied with the lack of trades? No, of course not. But I do think that the league has sort of decided not to help the Lakers since the CP3 thing, so I feel like any trade we did make would be lopsided against us. I think that may be a factor... I also haven't seen too many trade ideas over the years that would have changed our fate a whole lot, mainly because what we had to offer was pretty minimal... So I do wish things were different, but it falls in that area where you have to trust the FO to know more than you do about what's out there.
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...
danfantastk32
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,993
And1: 1,958
Joined: Dec 20, 2015
     

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#45 » by danfantastk32 » Thu Feb 9, 2017 11:55 pm

Kilroy wrote:The flaw is that it took GSW years of flying basically under the radar in the west to accumulate the talent to be where they are today... Curry was drafted in 2010 for example... Ignoring all the talent they acquired before that, it took him 5 years to take a team that had been to the playoffs 1 time since 1994, to the finals...
They had essentially been building for 15 years before they lucked into him... And essentially 20 years to be a true contender. And that's all throughout a CBA era we were able to dominate in.
20 years.

Is that the measure of success and 'results' Mitch is measured by?


Ok Let's go with this shall we? Jerry West joined the Warriors in May of 2011. The Warriors just wrapped up a 36-46 season. The next season was 23-43 (Shortened season.....project to like a 31-32 win season). Next year (West's 2nd)...the Warriors were 47-35. 2nd Round of the playoffs. Next year (Wests 3rd) They go 51-31. Lose to Clippers in first round. Next year (4th)...67-15...win the damn thing.

GOD I like the Jerry West story better than the Jim Buss story.
Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,603
And1: 12,316
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#46 » by Kilroy » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:08 am

danfantastk32 wrote:
Kilroy wrote:The flaw is that it took GSW years of flying basically under the radar in the west to accumulate the talent to be where they are today... Curry was drafted in 2010 for example... Ignoring all the talent they acquired before that, it took him 5 years to take a team that had been to the playoffs 1 time since 1994, to the finals...
They had essentially been building for 15 years before they lucked into him... And essentially 20 years to be a true contender. And that's all throughout a CBA era we were able to dominate in.
20 years.

Is that the measure of success and 'results' Mitch is measured by?


Ok Let's go with this shall we? Jerry West joined the Warriors in May of 2011. The Warriors just wrapped up a 36-46 season. The next season was 23-43 (Shortened season.....project to like a 31-32 win season). Next year (West's 2nd)...the Warriors were 47-35. 2nd Round of the playoffs. Next year (Wests 3rd) They go 51-31. Lose to Clippers in first round. Next year (4th)...67-15...win the damn thing.

GOD I like the Jerry West story better than the Jim Buss story.


Sure...
Let's just ignore all other variables and paint the result with the binary brush.
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...
danfantastk32
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,993
And1: 1,958
Joined: Dec 20, 2015
     

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#47 » by danfantastk32 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:22 am

Kilroy wrote:Sure...
Let's just ignore all other variables and paint the result with the binary brush.


Well pick your route of failure with this guy, and we can over it in detail. I mean, at some point the guy has to answer for SOMETHING doesn't he? You wanna talk about his signings, and lack thereof? You wanna talk about the teams he's amassed? You wanna talk about veiwership and TV ratings? You wanna compare him to the Spurs, who lost their "generational player" the same year, and hardly missed a beat?

You ever notice we don't worry about the "variables" when you talk about great players or coaches? Fact is, he was handed a team with 3 stars on it (Kobe, Dwight, Pau...we'll ignore Nash) It even made the playoffs his first half-year in charge. He watched the youngest two stars walk for less....and he super-overpaid the oldest - injured of the 3. We've also actually gotten pretty lucky in the draft.....and yet that's yet to produce anything. So a case can certainly be made that he inherited a pretty decent hand of cards, actually. He just played it wrong.

And kept playing it wrong....and kept playing it wrong. He didn't get jack for Dwight Howard, or Pau in back to back offseasons. That's all just variables? No accountability at all, eh?

We haven't sniffed a playoff game in about 5 years. We're still in the bottom 10% of the league. Why would anyone bother making excuses for that?
danfantastk32
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,993
And1: 1,958
Joined: Dec 20, 2015
     

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#48 » by danfantastk32 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:29 am

And for those that thought we dodged a Bullet not getting Carmello.....don't get me started. Carmello is the Jim Buss of players. Just wretched. In what delusional universe Jim thought that Kobe and Carmello were gonna be this amazing 1-2 punch, I can't tell you. I don't think there's enough LSD in the world to make that scenario work.

But he wanted it! He tried! Offered the max and everything. So his failure does not excuse him. It only kinda makes the whole thing humorously sad on his part. He can't even f**k it up right! I'd laugh, if this wasn't my beloved Lakers that he's flushed down the toilet.
Landsberger
General Manager
Posts: 9,146
And1: 2,001
Joined: Jul 04, 2016
 

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#49 » by Landsberger » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:43 am

danfantastk32 wrote:
Landsberger wrote: Larger point is that there is too much emphasis put on the GM in the FA results. Why would a FA come here? If you understand today's top players you'll see that until we get a top 5 player no other top 5 player will really want to come here. It's a catch 22 and I'm not sure a new name on the door changes that.


I totally disagree. It was the VASTLY popular opinion (by folks not paid by Lakers) that Kobe was way over paid. It didn't allow that 3rd "star" ....and nobody was going to come and be Kobe's sole partner. That wasn't enough. <-----this was really clear to many, many people. It also turned out to be correct.

Look.....the FA's go SOMEWHERE right? This team has had cap-space for years. Jim can't even sell a guy on a two-three year plan. The biggest road-block has been the Kobe contract....and that was his doing. But now that that's gone, we go sign Mozgov and Deng? What the hell was that?

This team has a young coach....it's got a bunch of young players....and it had (HAD) like $60 mil in cap room. And he couldn't do any better than overpaying role-players to big non-movable deals?? Come on.....that's crap.

Is it a hard job? Sure. But that's why it's so important to find someone who's REALLY GOOD AT IT.


Yup. We disagree. I don't see any scenario that nets us a top FA in retrospect and certainly not one that would that would have been dependent on different leadership. Kobe's contract is what it was. Best player in a generation who put the Buss family in even bigger bucks got paid. That actually should show prospects that if you succeed you will be taken care of. Look to Chicago and how Jordan and the rest left there for the flip side of that.

I continue to think that while I don't much care for the entitled personalities and other drama of our current FO I also can't see how the last 4 years could have been better for the team. The previous 3 were a disaster and the swinging for the fences with CP3, Howard and later Nash were actually liked by most Laker fans. If I have a problem with how they did things it would start with the CP3 pursuit and end with the Nash signing. After that they've done well with what was left over.
danfantastk32
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,993
And1: 1,958
Joined: Dec 20, 2015
     

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#50 » by danfantastk32 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:19 am

Landsberger wrote:Yup. We disagree. I don't see any scenario that nets us a top FA in retrospect and certainly not one that would that would have been dependent on different leadership. Kobe's contract is what it was. Best player in a generation who put the Buss family in even bigger bucks got paid. That actually should show prospects that if you succeed you will be taken care of. Look to Chicago and how Jordan and the rest left there for the flip side of that.

I continue to think that while I don't much care for the entitled personalities and other drama of our current FO I also can't see how the last 4 years could have been better for the team. The previous 3 were a disaster and the swinging for the fences with CP3, Howard and later Nash were actually liked by most Laker fans. If I have a problem with how they did things it would start with the CP3 pursuit and end with the Nash signing. After that they've done well with what was left over.


Fair enough. I think we coulda done better. Prob coulda put the finger to the wind on Howard...maybe done a sign and trade? I'd be willing to concede the bad luck of losing Dwight straight up.

Certainly should have got something for Pau. A first rounder? The writing was on the wall after Howard left that it was rebuild time. We had several pieces we could have flipped for picks.

There was no reason to pay Kobe what we did. We already had given him a 3-year $90ish extension before that last extension. There was nobody going to give him even the $20 mil max. That contract said 2 things to prospective FA's : This is, and will be Kobe's team. Kobe first. And it also told other stars that it would just be you and Kobe.....no third help.

And even with that.....there were several players who wanted to come here, but Jim was so hell-bent on big names like Carmello and Aldridge, that he never made offers to them. It was this foolish "home run, or nothing" mentality.

That's how I feel. The second Howard decided to leave.....they should have immediately gone into rebuild mode. Had they of done that...I think we'd be in a much better situation. Obviously there's a trillion variables.....but I think averages playing out, we'd have been several years ahead of where we are now...and prob woulda been attractive to guys like Durant, and DeRozen, and possibly Aldridge....although I know he wanted to join a winner....that woulda been a long-shot.
LakersSoul
Head Coach
Posts: 7,100
And1: 4,967
Joined: Jul 03, 2016

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#51 » by LakersSoul » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:17 pm

LakersSoul wrote:
LakersSoul wrote:Remember we won 17 games last year and our realistic expectations for the year? With all the ups and downs and complaining about the Lakers, after the win against a hapless Knicks, we are 18-36 on the season. This means we have already surpassed last season's total win by 1 game with 28 games remaining. Congrats Lakers!! In fact if we keep this pace, we are on track to record 27 to 28 wins. 27-28 wins if we do NOT improve. I would say a 10 win increase is a good jump but we are projecting up and could get more than 30 wins this season.

Many were not predicting or giving the Lakers a chance at 30 wins this season. Yet, so many are talking about selling our guys and pissed that we are not tanking. What gives? Yeah another top 3 pick helps but seriously we are making solid improvements here and most are not noticing. We are doing this and still only scratching the tip of our potential.

Dlo, Randle, BI, Zubac, Black, Clarkson and Nance have shown signs of breaking out and/or moments of brilliance. These guys are all practically 1-2 years into their NBA season if you ignore the injury season to Randle. So lets be a little more patient. The team looks better as they learn to play as a team, play better defense and move the ball more under Luke. So lets be patient.

In hindsight, the contracts to Moz (4/65) and Deng (4/72) look horrible. However, horrible contracts are everywhere this summer. Everywhere. Remember the other options for us? Guys available at similar or worst contract to Moz is not doing so much better. Mahinmi (4/64), Biyombo (4/72), Ezeli (2/15) and Noah (4/72). We wanted Horford and Whiteside but were not given an interview, remember. On Deng, we wanted Bazemore (4/70) and Barnes (4/94) but they passes on us as well, remember. Tank again and we will not get top or second tier guys to sign with us for another 2 years. If you were a FA, would you go to Knicks or Brooklyn or Phoenix? That applies to the Lakers too and will get worse with another tank season.

Next summer we need a good point guard (3/50) regardless of the draft pick situation plus a good vet forward for 2/12. Then our roster should be set with pieces to trade or add/subtract as needed.



Overall, in the last year...

We added two more talented players, BI and Zubac.
We improved our win total by 1 over last year with 28 games left.
We added a stud coach in Luke that is trying to transform the team into a contender.
We have not sold our assets.
We added Magic as an advisor.

Not a bad year and the year is not over yet. We have a lot to be excited about.



This year could end with Jim out, West Sr in as advisor and potentially a top 3 pick. That could be ideal and put us in top shape. We could also add a good 1-2 FAs. Even if we get that top 3 pick or not, you can see that we need a steady vet PG.

Its highly possible that we get our 19th win tonight as the Bucks might tank without Parker.

Not Yo Ham Lakers!

The Don and The King!
Landsberger
General Manager
Posts: 9,146
And1: 2,001
Joined: Jul 04, 2016
 

Re: Laker's Record and Perspective 

Post#52 » by Landsberger » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:27 am

danfantastk32 wrote: The second Howard decided to leave.....they should have immediately gone into rebuild mode.


The second they traded for Howard we were in rebuild mode. Not many knew it however. He has big muscles and can dunk real good.

Return to Los Angeles Lakers