Game 31: Portland Trail Blazers (16-16) @ Los Angeles Lakers (11-19) - LOSS - 11-20

[Wavy Q]

raptors and cavs fans have been complaining about Ty Lue and Dwayne Casey for years. If anything they’re having a negative impact on the team. Mike D’Antoni was considered a joke before joining a team which just happened to have 2 elite players and an already established system.

I don’t believe the Warriors would be appreciably different with a coach like Spoelstra or something as opposed to Kerr.

Brad Stevens is the only coach in this top 5 team list I think that actually has a positive impact on his team.

Sure it’s a coaches job to hold players accountable but we don’t know anything that goes on behind the scenes. You can’t say you know for a fact Luke isn’t holding anyone accountable. If holding players accountable only means benching them to you then we’re just gonna argue in circles

The players need just as much blame as some are willing to throw only on the coach

[iQon]

I am so sick of losing these games.

[Michael Lucky]

Kuzma was due for a bad shooting night. Too bad his last three point attempt wasn't called for a foul as it should have. Luke needs to get back to his roots, even though i understand his obsession with the defensive side of the ball. We've been the worst or second worst defensive team each of the last three years. Having said that, he needs to do a better job balancing out the roster at times. Let's be honest, often great offense leads to better defense. Guys are more energized and there's less opportunity for the opposing team to score in transition.

[TyCobb]

One of the worst games I've seen Lonzo play. Bad shooting, bad turnovers, and most unusual a ton of blown defensive assignments. Another loss that should've been a win. This one hurts... they best win on Christmas.

[TyCobb]

Also, the reffing has been really, really bad. Like how are they missing some of the calls. Where is their focus at? My goodness.

[Danny Darko]

Also, the reffing has been really, really bad. Like how are they missing some of the calls. Where is their focus at? My goodness.

When we had a ton of vets and success we used to just have Chick talk about how rooks get no calls. Now we are team featuring 2 rookies, a pouty PF, and a 20 year old sophomore. it's not right, but we have a team full of guys who haven't built relationships with refs and get 0 love. I think Lonzo will end up getting a ton of love because he rarely complains (same with BI), I think Kuz will build relationships with refs and get calls, and I think Randle will have a love hate with refs for ever because he's aggressive on O but also plays bully ball and cries a ton.

[what would jack bauer do?]

Refs missed 4 game changing calls. On 2 plays they got the calls wrong on Nurkic by swallowing the whistle on one and calling a block on bogut the other, they clearly missed the ball out of bounds off of ed Davis, and the no call for kuzma when he was clearly fouled on a three.

Even more frustrating than that is the missed free throws by our guys. Ingram was sorely missed tonight. We really have no guys that can create their own shot or get to the rack outside of Ingram and maybe Clarkson. It was painful watching Kuzma trying to create his own offense tonight, he does so much better when other guys or the offense creates an opening for him with defenders recovering towards him giving him a head of steam.

[dub81]

Alex Caruso and Thomas Bryant paling crucial minutes. Clearly Luke is getting directions from upper management to develop players. That KCP drew up shot is still a head scratcher.

[Landsberger]

At some point you hold the players accountable for their terrible play. You can’t just say **** Luke he’s trash every time we lose

Also this is my hot take, coaching has a near negligible impact on teams other than the extreme. (Eg. Poppovich good, Derek Fisher bad)

There isn't a top 5 team without a coach making a difference for that team. Holding players accountable IS what good coaches do isn't it?

Yeah I have to agree man. If the coach gives me a long leash even if I'm not making shots, I'll still try to make shots unless told otherwise.

A good coach will understand when you are losing confidence and make a change.

As for FT shooting. That is the easiest part of the game. No one is guarding you. If you can fly through the air and make a difficult finish at the basket you can make a FT. The great players and great teams do these fundamental things as well as the spectacular ones. Coaches can't teach the flying, amazing finish at the hoop but they can emphasize fundamentals and basics of being a balanced player. Players with poor fundamentals year after year are most likely playing in an environment that doesn't stress fundamentals. Pop, in SA has fundamentally sound players on the floor at all times. He also stresses it in practice.

[Sedale Threatt]

There isn't a top 5 team without a coach making a difference for that team. Holding players accountable IS what good coaches do isn't it?

Yeah I have to agree man. If the coach gives me a long leash even if I'm not making shots, I'll still try to make shots unless told otherwise.

A good coach will understand when you are losing confidence and make a change.

As for FT shooting. That is the easiest part of the game. No one is guarding you. If you can fly through the air and make a difficult finish at the basket you can make a FT. The great players and great teams do these fundamental things as well as the spectacular ones. Coaches can't teach the flying, amazing finish at the hoop but they can emphasize fundamentals and basics of being a balanced player. Players with poor fundamentals year after year are most likely playing in an environment that doesn't stress fundamentals. Pop, in SA has fundamentally sound players on the floor at all times. He also stresses it in practice.

And yet, the Spurs won championships in seasons they finished 24th, 26th and 26th in FT percentage. Maybe Pop's not as good as we thought? No, of course he is. It's just a silly thing to dump in a coach's lap.

Another example: The Warriors have been one of the sloppiest teams in the NBA in terms of turnovers under Kerr -- a fundamental if there ever was one -- despite him making it a major point of emphasis.

So at what point does the buck stop with the professional athletes on the court? Like, was it Phil Jackson's fault that Shaq could never shoot free throws, or just an individual flaw that he could never address? Or Red Auerbach with Bill Russell? And so on and so on ...

[Landsberger]

And yet, the Spurs won championships in seasons they finished 24th, 26th and 26th in FT percentage. Maybe Pop's not as good as we thought? No, of course he is. It's just a silly thing to dump in a coach's lap.

Another example: The Warriors have been one of the sloppiest teams in the NBA in terms of turnovers under Kerr -- a fundamental if there ever was one -- despite him making it a major point of emphasis.

So at what point does the buck stop with the professional athletes on the court? Like, was it Phil Jackson's fault that Shaq could never shoot free throws, or just an individual flaw that he could never address? Or Red Auerbach with Bill Russell? And so on and so on ...

Yes, players have individual responsibilities.... we all do. Not sure how or why you are twisting what I'm saying into an extreme position that I'm not saying. Maybe we get rid of GM's and let the players all go play on teams where they are liked the most or maybe we get rid of refs and let the players all admit their fouls..... After all, isn't that a responsible and accountable thing to do?

Shaq, Wilt and so on were not good shooters from anywhere but a few feet from the hoop. Not a stretch that they couldn't shoot well from the line. Now guys who can shoot 3 pointers and jumpers not shooting FT's at a good % are great targets for improvement and the coaching staff should find ways to encourage that. If a staff works on getting an offense that gives a good shooter more 3 point chances they are not doing their job if they don't also encourage/coach/focus on getting those same players to take advantage of free throws.

Just what is a coach and his staff for in your world? Modeling suits?

[Sedale Threatt]

And yet, the Spurs won championships in seasons they finished 24th, 26th and 26th in FT percentage. Maybe Pop's not as good as we thought? No, of course he is. It's just a silly thing to dump in a coach's lap.

Another example: The Warriors have been one of the sloppiest teams in the NBA in terms of turnovers under Kerr -- a fundamental if there ever was one -- despite him making it a major point of emphasis.

So at what point does the buck stop with the professional athletes on the court? Like, was it Phil Jackson's fault that Shaq could never shoot free throws, or just an individual flaw that he could never address? Or Red Auerbach with Bill Russell? And so on and so on ...

Yes, players have individual responsibilities.... we all do. Not sure how or why you are twisting what I'm saying into an extreme position that I'm not saying. Maybe we get rid of GM's and let the players all go play on teams where they are liked the most or maybe we get rid of refs and let the players all admit their fouls..... After all, isn't that a responsible and accountable thing to do?

Shaq, Wilt and so on were not good shooters from anywhere but a few feet from the hoop. Not a stretch that they couldn't shoot well from the line. Now guys who can shoot 3 pointers and jumpers not shooting FT's at a good % are great targets for improvement and the coaching staff should find ways to encourage that. If a staff works on getting an offense that gives a good shooter more 3 point chances they are not doing their job if they don't also encourage/coach/focus on getting those same players to take advantage of free throws.

Just what is a coach and his staff for in your world? Modeling suits?

Coaches are responsible for things that actually involve decisions -- matchups, lineups, schemes, tactics, strategy, adjustments, etc. An individual skill that players have to put in work at to be good, and still might not be regardless of how much they practice, is largely out of their control.

Again, look at the Spurs. You (correctly) cite Popovich as one of the most fundamentally-sound coaches in the NBA ... and yet they were downright awful in this particular skill in not one but three championship seasons.

Bruce Bowen, coached by Popovich, was a horrendous free throw shooter despite being excellent on 3s. Tim Duncan, also coached by Popovich, and lauded as one of the most fundamental players of all time, with a very solid mid-range game, shot above league average on free throws just three times in his career.

And yet that same staff was able to help Tony Parker and Kawhi Leonard improve vastly as shooters. What conclusion can we draw? Manu Ginobili put it perfect: "Sometimes you don't have the personnel to have a good number."

That's basically where we're at. There's plenty of stuff to blame Walton and his staff for. Our sh*tty FT shooting isn't one of them.

[dockingsched]

FT shooting is probably the worst example of something a coach should be to responsible for.

[Landsberger]

And yet, the Spurs won championships in seasons they finished 24th, 26th and 26th in FT percentage. Maybe Pop's not as good as we thought? No, of course he is. It's just a silly thing to dump in a coach's lap.

Another example: The Warriors have been one of the sloppiest teams in the NBA in terms of turnovers under Kerr -- a fundamental if there ever was one -- despite him making it a major point of emphasis.

So at what point does the buck stop with the professional athletes on the court? Like, was it Phil Jackson's fault that Shaq could never shoot free throws, or just an individual flaw that he could never address? Or Red Auerbach with Bill Russell? And so on and so on ...

Yes, players have individual responsibilities.... we all do. Not sure how or why you are twisting what I'm saying into an extreme position that I'm not saying. Maybe we get rid of GM's and let the players all go play on teams where they are liked the most or maybe we get rid of refs and let the players all admit their fouls..... After all, isn't that a responsible and accountable thing to do?

Shaq, Wilt and so on were not good shooters from anywhere but a few feet from the hoop. Not a stretch that they couldn't shoot well from the line. Now guys who can shoot 3 pointers and jumpers not shooting FT's at a good % are great targets for improvement and the coaching staff should find ways to encourage that. If a staff works on getting an offense that gives a good shooter more 3 point chances they are not doing their job if they don't also encourage/coach/focus on getting those same players to take advantage of free throws.

Just what is a coach and his staff for in your world? Modeling suits?

Coaches are responsible for things that actually involve decisions -- matchups, lineups, schemes, tactics, strategy, adjustments, etc. An individual skill that players have to put in work at to be good, and still might not be regardless of how much they practice, is largely out of their control.

Again, look at the Spurs. You (correctly) cite Popovich as one of the most fundamentally-sound coaches in the NBA ... and yet they were downright awful in this particular skill in not one but three championship seasons.

Bruce Bowen, coached by Popovich, was a horrendous free throw shooter despite being excellent on 3s. Tim Duncan, also coached by Popovich, and lauded as one of the most fundamental players of all time, with a very solid mid-range game, shot above league average on free throws just three times in his career.

And yet that same staff was able to help Tony Parker and Kawhi Leonard improve vastly as shooters. What conclusion can we draw? Manu Ginobili put it perfect: "Sometimes you don't have the personnel to have a good number."

That's basically where we're at. There's plenty of stuff to blame Walton and his staff for. Our sh*tty FT shooting isn't one of them.

Fundamentals are essential. Free Throws are a basic fundamental of the game. Coaches teach fundamentals. You mentioned shooting improvements were coached. Why does that stop at jump shooting? The real difference makers in coaching are less about creating neat out of bounds plays and more about getting amazing athletes with poor fundamentals to improve them. Succeeding in doing that makes all of that stratigery work a whole lot better.

Personally, I believe a coach can effect a larger change in a team's performance by stressing and teaching fundamentals at any level than doing just about anything else. Basketball, at any level, is a combination of fundamentals, mental fortitude and natural ability..... in that order. The first one is hard work, the second innate and the 3rd one is nature. You can build the first one and hone the 3rd one. If a coach isn't there to instill the ethic and guide the development then it's much more difficult. Again, FT are easy points and in most cases something you can teach even to Pros. If the coach isn't looking for improvement in the team in this area and leaving it up to the individual to improve or even identify then it is on the coach IMO. I just don't know how anyone can keep saying that a coach shouldn't be responsible for his team's FT shooting when considered responsible for most of the rest of their performance. To single that out at a personal responsibility and putting it outside a coaches value proposition is just not something you'll get me to agree with. It's a basic of coaching IMHO.

If you want an example of how a coach can effect a team by helping just one player turnaround poor (historically poor btw) FT shooting look no further than Stan Van Gundy and Andre Drummond. 38% to 68%(as high as 75% this year)...... and the Pistons have been near the top of their division most of the year. Van Gundy stressed what it meant to the team for him to be a better FT shooter.... and he went and became one. If we were having this conversation a year ago he'd be in your lump of guys who cannot get better.... The NBA is littered with similar examples. Chris Webber, Baron Davis, Kevin McHale, Doc Rivers, Dennis Johnson, Jerry West, Gary Payton..... and on and on. I'm sure they all did this without any coaching emphasis at all.

[No name]

Yes, players have individual responsibilities.... we all do. Not sure how or why you are twisting what I'm saying into an extreme position that I'm not saying. Maybe we get rid of GM's and let the players all go play on teams where they are liked the most or maybe we get rid of refs and let the players all admit their fouls..... After all, isn't that a responsible and accountable thing to do?

Shaq, Wilt and so on were not good shooters from anywhere but a few feet from the hoop. Not a stretch that they couldn't shoot well from the line. Now guys who can shoot 3 pointers and jumpers not shooting FT's at a good % are great targets for improvement and the coaching staff should find ways to encourage that. If a staff works on getting an offense that gives a good shooter more 3 point chances they are not doing their job if they don't also encourage/coach/focus on getting those same players to take advantage of free throws.

Just what is a coach and his staff for in your world? Modeling suits?

Coaches are responsible for things that actually involve decisions -- matchups, lineups, schemes, tactics, strategy, adjustments, etc. An individual skill that players have to put in work at to be good, and still might not be regardless of how much they practice, is largely out of their control.

Again, look at the Spurs. You (correctly) cite Popovich as one of the most fundamentally-sound coaches in the NBA ... and yet they were downright awful in this particular skill in not one but three championship seasons.

Bruce Bowen, coached by Popovich, was a horrendous free throw shooter despite being excellent on 3s. Tim Duncan, also coached by Popovich, and lauded as one of the most fundamental players of all time, with a very solid mid-range game, shot above league average on free throws just three times in his career.

And yet that same staff was able to help Tony Parker and Kawhi Leonard improve vastly as shooters. What conclusion can we draw? Manu Ginobili put it perfect: "Sometimes you don't have the personnel to have a good number."

That's basically where we're at. There's plenty of stuff to blame Walton and his staff for. Our sh*tty FT shooting isn't one of them.

Fundamentals are essential. Free Throws are a basic fundamental of the game. Coaches teach fundamentals. You mentioned shooting improvements were coached. Why does that stop at jump shooting? The real difference makers in coaching are less about creating neat out of bounds plays and more about getting amazing athletes with poor fundamentals to improve them. Succeeding in doing that makes all of that stratigery work a whole lot better.

Personally, I believe a coach can effect a larger change in a team's performance by stressing and teaching fundamentals at any level than doing just about anything else. Basketball, at any level, is a combination of fundamentals, mental fortitude and natural ability..... in that order. The first one is hard work, the second innate and the 3rd one is nature. You can build the first one and hone the 3rd one. If a coach isn't there to instill the ethic and guide the development then it's much more difficult. Again, FT are easy points and in most cases something you can teach even to Pros. If the coach isn't looking for improvement in the team in this area and leaving it up to the individual to improve or even identify then it is on the coach IMO. I just don't know how anyone can keep saying that a coach shouldn't be responsible for his team's FT shooting when considered responsible for most of the rest of their performance. To single that out at a personal responsibility and putting it outside a coaches value proposition is just not something you'll get me to agree with. It's a basic of coaching IMHO.

If you want an example of how a coach can effect a team by helping just one player turnaround poor (historically poor btw) FT shooting look no further than Stan Van Gundy and Andre Drummond. 38% to 68%(as high as 75% this year)...... and the Pistons have been near the top of their division most of the year. Van Gundy stressed what it meant to the team for him to be a better FT shooter.... and he went and became one. If we were having this conversation a year ago he'd be in your lump of guys who cannot get better.... The NBA is littered with similar examples. Chris Webber, Baron Davis, Kevin McHale, Doc Rivers, Dennis Johnson, Jerry West, Gary Payton..... and on and on. I'm sure they all did this without any coaching emphasis at all.

Do you believe that Walton and his staff are not coaching free throw shooting? Do you think they are forgoing fundamental practice routine?

What are they supposed to do? Tell the kids to stay after class? The guys can't shoot. That's on the guys. It's also on the guys to put in the extra work to fix it. The coaching staff can only guide.

[Sedale Threatt]

Yes, players have individual responsibilities.... we all do. Not sure how or why you are twisting what I'm saying into an extreme position that I'm not saying. Maybe we get rid of GM's and let the players all go play on teams where they are liked the most or maybe we get rid of refs and let the players all admit their fouls..... After all, isn't that a responsible and accountable thing to do?

Shaq, Wilt and so on were not good shooters from anywhere but a few feet from the hoop. Not a stretch that they couldn't shoot well from the line. Now guys who can shoot 3 pointers and jumpers not shooting FT's at a good % are great targets for improvement and the coaching staff should find ways to encourage that. If a staff works on getting an offense that gives a good shooter more 3 point chances they are not doing their job if they don't also encourage/coach/focus on getting those same players to take advantage of free throws.

Just what is a coach and his staff for in your world? Modeling suits?

Coaches are responsible for things that actually involve decisions -- matchups, lineups, schemes, tactics, strategy, adjustments, etc. An individual skill that players have to put in work at to be good, and still might not be regardless of how much they practice, is largely out of their control.

Again, look at the Spurs. You (correctly) cite Popovich as one of the most fundamentally-sound coaches in the NBA ... and yet they were downright awful in this particular skill in not one but three championship seasons.

Bruce Bowen, coached by Popovich, was a horrendous free throw shooter despite being excellent on 3s. Tim Duncan, also coached by Popovich, and lauded as one of the most fundamental players of all time, with a very solid mid-range game, shot above league average on free throws just three times in his career.

And yet that same staff was able to help Tony Parker and Kawhi Leonard improve vastly as shooters. What conclusion can we draw? Manu Ginobili put it perfect: "Sometimes you don't have the personnel to have a good number."

That's basically where we're at. There's plenty of stuff to blame Walton and his staff for. Our sh*tty FT shooting isn't one of them.

Fundamentals are essential. Free Throws are a basic fundamental of the game. Coaches teach fundamentals. You mentioned shooting improvements were coached. Why does that stop at jump shooting? The real difference makers in coaching are less about creating neat out of bounds plays and more about getting amazing athletes with poor fundamentals to improve them. Succeeding in doing that makes all of that stratigery work a whole lot better.

Personally, I believe a coach can effect a larger change in a team's performance by stressing and teaching fundamentals at any level than doing just about anything else. Basketball, at any level, is a combination of fundamentals, mental fortitude and natural ability..... in that order. The first one is hard work, the second innate and the 3rd one is nature. You can build the first one and hone the 3rd one. If a coach isn't there to instill the ethic and guide the development then it's much more difficult. Again, FT are easy points and in most cases something you can teach even to Pros. If the coach isn't looking for improvement in the team in this area and leaving it up to the individual to improve or even identify then it is on the coach IMO. I just don't know how anyone can keep saying that a coach shouldn't be responsible for his team's FT shooting when considered responsible for most of the rest of their performance. To single that out at a personal responsibility and putting it outside a coaches value proposition is just not something you'll get me to agree with. It's a basic of coaching IMHO.

If you want an example of how a coach can effect a team by helping just one player turnaround poor (historically poor btw) FT shooting look no further than Stan Van Gundy and Andre Drummond. 38% to 68%(as high as 75% this year)...... and the Pistons have been near the top of their division most of the year. Van Gundy stressed what it meant to the team for him to be a better FT shooter.... and he went and became one. If we were having this conversation a year ago he'd be in your lump of guys who cannot get better.... The NBA is littered with similar examples. Chris Webber, Baron Davis, Kevin McHale, Doc Rivers, Dennis Johnson, Jerry West, Gary Payton..... and on and on. I'm sure they all did this without any coaching emphasis at all.

Conversely, you have loads of examples where quality coaching would seem to have made no difference.

Again, looks at the one you yourself provided, Gregg Popovich. He had three separate championship teams that finished among the worst FT shooting teams in the NBA, and a fourth that was middle of the pack. He also had one that finished fourth. What happened there, he suddenly became better at coaching free throws? Or maybe, because of their roster composition of good shooters, they shot well at the line. Funny how that would work.

Popovich also had one of the most fundamentally sound players in NBA history, with a very solid shooting stroke, who was lauded for his professionalism and work ethic, who was consistently below average at the line, in some cases shockingly so. Maybe Popovich should have emphasized free throw shooting more?

Andre Drummond is another good example. Do I give Stan Van Gundy even a shred of credit for his improvement? F. No. Why would would I? Like Drummond had never heard that before that he needed to shoot better. Or Shaq. Or Wilt. Or Bill Russell. Like it never occurred to them it was something they should really try to fix.

And here's a really fun exercise: Roll through UCLA's seasons under John Wooden, the master of fundamentals, and check out how many of their championship teams were either average or sub-par at the line. (The college average is around 69 percent, compared to 75 for the NBA).

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/ucla/

No offense, I just think this is an extremely silly thing to park this in Walton's lap. Especially when, as noted, you have no clue what Walton emphasizes.

[Landsberger]

No offense,

Second time you've said this to me and then continued to tell me I'm an idiot. Shame on me for engaging you from now on.

[Anklebreaker702]

Terrible loss last game smh

[LakersSoul]

Terrible loss last game smh

Good to see that with us starting 2 rookies and a sophomore, we are not only expected to win against a playoff team but when we lose it becomes a "terrible loss". Us fans are getting the expectations up for this group of young players. I bet regarding the minutes played by each team, our total minutes add up to one of the youngest this year.

I think its going to take a little more time for this group to get that killer instinct. I think we will get there this year to some extent though.