Lakers Waive G Vander Blue

[danfantastk32]

lmao.... I legit thought that was a dloading post.


Then I saw your double post and scrolled up again...thinking you had two accounts. Nope it was you!

Yeah....and I went through and shortened it twice! Maybe I shoulda been a writer??

[danfantastk32]

And just so I don't sound like a ball-polisher for Magic / Rob...

I think signing Bogut, and not giving Bryant / Zubac minutes this season was a really bad move. What if we do sign Lebron and PG this offseason......who's our center (unless they know something about Boogie we dont?) But has all this been Luke's decision? Does Luke feel like he needed to impress the new bosses? Did he think Bogut was gonna bring more to the table than he did? Hard to know exactly....but I think was a huge mistake. We got NOTHIN at center if Lopez walks, and we don't get Cousins. Just two young guys we're gonna regret not developing.

I also think Magic and Rob have overplayed their cap stuff. I think there was a way you could have said it better. Something like this: "Look....we think we have a pretty good squad here, and while they are young, and might take a couple years to really click...we think it just needs a leader, and perhaps a couple tweaks. So we hope to land a star next offseason....but we're also gonna shield ourselves so if we feel we need 2 stars, we can make that happen as well." <--------something like that. I think it was a mistake to make it "inevitable" that Randle and Clarkson and KCP and Lopez would be moving on. They basically created a situation where all these guys have to push their own agenda's. I don't think this is huge....but it should have been done better.

The NBA is a cut-throat industry. You gotta make decisions, and you gotta make some harsh ones. I think it's great that Magic isn't this old softy. I would be very worried if Jeanie tried to run this side of things. But that said....we have scorched the bridge with Randle pretty bad. And we could have played this better. If we do end up only signing 1 FA....and have the space for Randle, do you think he'd be interested? Or is he thinking "hell no..your just gonna trade me first chance you get!" Same thing with Clarkson. Same thing with Deng. There are ways of dealing with guys without letting the world know what a giant "load" you think they are to your plans. Clarkson and Deng are nothing but "Problems" for Magic, and thanks to how we have treated and talked about them....they know it. De'angelo was given a nice parting shot from Magic out the door. Zubac was given orders to work on x y and z in the offseason....he did it, and no good deed goes unpunished.

I think we're burning bridges we don't need to burn. I think there are several players on this team that don't feel very positive about our front office.....and those guys are mostly young, and they are prob all going to be shipping out to new teams. Magic's creating alot of mouths he doesn't need to be creating.

So there you go Landsberger. See.....I don't think it's all sunshine and rainbows in Magic-land =0)

[Landsberger]

I shortened it....but still long as F. Oh well....suffer through, or skip it. Up to you =0)

Ouch!.... Deadline looming for me. I'll get to it (in it's glorious entirety) soon. I do agree with the larger premise that we're in a significant inflection point for the team going forward for the next 3 to 5 years. One bad move and we're f'd. One unmade move and we're f'd.

[Landsberger]

To be clear, the use of sacrificed was to emphasize that I believe the FO will view any move at the deadline through the 2 max guys this summer lens. Getting a piece to help us this year (say a backup PG for example) if it doesn't support that plan will most likely not happen.

I hear what your saying. I think that not getting a back-up PG makes sense though, as this team isn't a backup-PG away from getting to the big dance. And while I do agree with you to an extent that the whole "2 FA's" plan is lofty, risky, and perhaps unrealistic....I think you could also say it's sort of the obvious route we have to take:

A) Our drafting situation is meager at best, for the next couple years.

B) We don't exactly have any players to make big moves with. I suppose you could take KCP, and trade him to Blazers for McCullum, if they wanted to try and get out from his contract. But that's pretty much part of "gettin 2 star FA's" right?

C) Nobody thinks it would be a good idea to to take KCP and Lopez and go trade for $40-mil worth of mid-level players with 3-4 years on their contracts, right? I think we can all agree that would be the worst thing to do.

D) We really saw a reluctance for a star player to come here alone. There sorta seems to be this "team-up" mentality. Either get 2 guys to come, or have 1-2 guys join your existing stars.

E) Really the only remaining option I see, is keep most of our guys together...and give it a few years.

So when you break it all down, your faced with 2 options really: Try and get 1 or 2 free-agents this offseason, and if you only get 1...try for the 2nd the following year. Or just sit tight. Wait 2 more years, and then Deng / Clarkson come off books....you should at this point REALLY know what you got, and go from there. <------- the 2 realistic options I see.

Now there is a big problem with Plan B (sitting tight, and letting the team grow) :You gotta pay Randle this year. You gotta pay Nance (admittedly it won't be huge...but prob 8-10 mil, right?) You will have a couple expendable guys leave....but your going to have to pay Ingram that same summer that Deng ends....which means you gotta pay him BEFORE any free-agents. So your FA pool is looking pretty sad at this point, right? You will only enough to sign 1 FA at best (I'll say it again...been very hard to do)....and may very well have to ship Randle out anyhow to be able to sign Ball / Kuzma the next year.

I think the best, most perfect thing the Lakers could have realistically hoped for was trading Randle and attaching Deng. Throw a pick in, a Nance or a Zubac....whatever...but get Deng out of here. I think the Lakers exhausted all avenues....and it's a no-go.


All that above is how I see our issue. So the question becomes: Taking KCP out of the equation (i don't think we can keep him, and resign our guys)....Do you think the rest of the team is good enough to be a contender....given 3-4 years to develop? If you do.....then I guess an argument for plan B can be made. I personally don't. That last part obviously becomes speculation, but you take our core under plan B (Randle, Ingram, Ball, Kuz) and do you have the chemistry, the Defense, the Outside-shooting, THE TALENT to compete for a title in 3-5 years?

The other option, the first option looks like this: You let Randle walk (or ideally trade for a pick, or something. I heard they tried to do that, and nobody was interested). You let KCP walk, you trade Clarkson.....and you get 2 FA's. It might be 1 this year/ 1 the next..but you get 2 top FA's.....and then you give the squad another 2 years to grow before contracts become an issue.

Just tossin names: Boogie Cousins, and Paul George. Not my choice....but let's go with that.

Ball / PG / Ingram / Kuz / Cousins. <-----best part is, you can go over the cap to resign all your guys. If all 5 become super-crazy max level....great problem to have, we'll deal with it when the time comes. If Kuz or Ball never make all-star level, or whatever...they are the expendable guy to make the 4-max contracts work.

I know I've written a long story here. But I kinda see those two options being the only realistic options....and I think the '2 FA's' option is better....short term, and long-term. I think it's the easiest to navigate. Furthermore....when you really look at it....let's just say it all fails and we don't sign a single FA: OK.....we let Randle go. If we're unable to land ANYTHING after 2-3 years, we're obviously a dumpster fire with no talent, and have much bigger problems than Randle left.

I'll grant you gotta get the right FA's...and if PG will come with Cousins...then your getting Cousins...for better or for worse. It's the deal you make with the Devil. It's why I would like 1 free agent at a time myself. But players are calling these shots more and more, and it's a reality Magic / Rob have to deal with. We got nothing but some youth, and a terrible record to sell. Oh...and a mouthy dad who's gonna call you out if you don't play well with his son. =0)

That said, I think Plan A is the obvious move. It has risk, but so does just waiting. I think Randle came back not a fit for us. I think he's limited....and you see signs that the league feels that way as well, based on our inability to really get any value for him on the trade market. Randle wasn't going to make this team long-term....not the way Luke wants to play. So with that....it makes sense that Magic and Rob have announced to the league that they are in the Market for 2 FA's. Let the star players dwell on it for a year...and start making plans. Don't tell the league your not sure....tell em! Bring it! We got room.

Let's throw this all another way: Do you even want to sign Randle to a 4-year $25-per deal? Guy's are improving their game....or they aren't. If Randle hasn't at least STARTED to develop an outside shot....I think it's fair to say that he won't at this point. Same with his left. He's better than last year, but he's not expanding his game. And if he hasn't even started to by now, It's fair to expect he won't appreciably grow anytime.

So in the end, I get the sacrifice. Is it being handled 100% perfect?? Of course not. But Magic and Rob inherited a plane that crashed 10 miles from the highway. This year is us walking towards that highway, so we can get back on track. It's obviously "sacrificed" to a certain extent.....but it also was an inevitable result. I'm completely ok with not signing backup PG's in the name of a plan.

I don't necessarily disagree with these paths you've laid out. They are fairly logical.... However they are also from someone with a vested interest in the players that we've drafted and the coach/system we have. You know my thoughts on this..... Maginka have no such "vested" interest in anyone but Ball and Kuzma and maybe Hart and Bryant. Those are the players they brought in. KCP is part of their decision making as well. Now Laker fans love to varying degrees the youth we have because we are, in large part, die-hard fans and want our drafted players to be great even if they may not be. Many view our guys as future superstars given time.

To think this is how Maginka think is the flaw in this IMHO. The ego's involved are beyond what most people encounter. Magic was brought in to "save the franchise" in his mind. He's not the guy to implement someone else's plan nor sit back and just wait it out. He publicly lobbied for this position because of the results of the previous regime..... you don't do that, get the position and then implement their plan.

That said, I think the sacrifice this season is to get as much cap room as possible, figure out if Ball was the right guy and to let the league see our "shelves" and what they may want from us. That's how I've felt since he got here and I've not seen or heard anything to make me think otherwise. If we can get 2 slots we'll try and use them. If we can't sign 2 FA's we may trade our way into 2 guys. Many were surprised with the trade of Russell. Over the next 8 months I think we'll be similarly surprised by what happens to the team. My guess is that Ball and Kuzma are safe.... I think everyone else could be moved if they get the right deal in their minds. If we have this team intact come July15th then we would have struck out big time.

To your comment about Randle.... He's progressed primarily in understanding where he can and can't shoot from. I've posted the shooting by distance stats previously. His % of shots where he shoots the highest % are up and his % of shots from where he can't shoot from are down. He's not really shooting better overall rather he's shooting more from where he shoots better. There is an eerie parallel in Ingram's shooting stats as well. That's progress and it's real. The problem is that player that take huge jumps to be among the best in the game learn where they are good while at the same time improving things they do poorly. Ingram needs another year IMHO. Randle is 90% or more of what he'll ever be IMHO. Given Kuzma's emergence at the 4 and the fact that he's cheap for 4 more years I'd sell on Randle. It's not that I don't like him, it's more because of the situation we're in. As you said, do you sign him to a $15M to $20M a year deal? With no proven NBA stars on the roster I wouldn't.

Overall, unless we somehow thread the needle with 2 Stars and fill in the roster with serviceable players, we could be in for a long rebuild process. I like Ingram, Kuzma and Ball but I'm not sure in 3 years they are anything like Harden, Durant and Westbrook..... and those guys never even got to a conference finals. It's about the right mix players at the right time.

[danfantastk32]

To your comment about Randle.... He's progressed primarily in understanding where he can and can't shoot from. I've posted the shooting by distance stats previously. His % of shots where he shoots the highest % are up and his % of shots from where he can't shoot from are down. He's not really shooting better overall rather he's shooting more from where he shoots better. There is an eerie parallel in Ingram's shooting stats as well. That's progress and it's real. The problem is that player that take huge jumps to be among the best in the game learn where they are good while at the same time improving things they do poorly. Ingram needs another year IMHO. Randle is 90% or more of what he'll ever be IMHO. Given Kuzma's emergence at the 4 and the fact that he's cheap for 4 more years I'd sell on Randle. It's not that I don't like him, it's more because of the situation we're in. As you said, do you sign him to a $15M to $20M a year deal? With no proven NBA stars on the roster I wouldn't.

Overall, unless we somehow thread the needle with 2 Stars and fill in the roster with serviceable players, we could be in for a long rebuild process. I like Ingram, Kuzma and Ball but I'm not sure in 3 years they are anything like Harden, Durant and Westbrook..... and those guys never even got to a conference finals. It's about the right mix players at the right time.

Some good points. I think you and I are about 95% in agreement, we just seem to reach differing conclusions sometimes.

I do agree that Randle is shooting more from places he makes. Only issue with that, is he's been able to take advantage of the opposing teams bench alot (thats less now, to be fair) and he's also been our defacto 5 alot (Luke puts Lopez out on the perimeter) so he's been getting alot of layups and put-backs. And while that's good, and his shooting % is up, It's "progress" by the slimmest of margins if you ask me. It's almost like he's adjusting to the fact that he's NOT improving. <-----I'll concede I'm pretty hard on Randle. I really thought we had something special with him, but he doesn't seem interested in being great. He's good enough to get paid, and he knows it. That seems to be enough for him.

Do agree with your comment that I don't see Harden, Westbrook, and Durant out of our three. In fact, while I think our guys will be good, I don't think any of our youth will reach the level of any of those guys. Will correct you though: OKC did make the finals (lost to heat) with those 3.

Now you take those 3.....and you add Paul George, and I think your really looking good.

Ball is going to be an interesting player IMO. I think Ball will struggle being a "super star".....but he's gonna be that guy that the team just does so much better when he's there. In a soccer analogy....I'd compare him to Barcelona's Iniesta. While he's not the famous Messi, or Neymar....those who watch their games know how important he is to what it is they do. The argument to that is Magic. He had no problem being recognized for what he did. Scoring and ppg seem to be so stressed these days....we'll see.