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Thoughts on Rondo so far?

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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#21 » by Pythagoras » Tue Dec 3, 2019 8:39 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:As much as people may argue about his offense, whether it’s his ball dominance, creating for others, outside shooting, truth is his defense is horrendous. Borderline unplayable.


Borderline?

Image

on/ff of -6

I would say Rondo, Daniels, Dudley are all unplayable. They aren't young enough that you expect them to improve over the season, this is as good as it gets for them.


What’s really frustrating is he drug the team down last year too, so this is basically deja vu. They were losing games last year late in the season that they had no business losing, and he was a major part of that.

As much as replacing Rondo with FVV or CP3 would make this team dominant, I get that those guys are long shots. The Lakers don’t even need to aim that high though. Just adding a guy like Murray or Dunn that would be a big time upgrade.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#22 » by tamaraw08 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 10:40 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:As much as people may argue about his offense, whether it’s his ball dominance, creating for others, outside shooting, truth is his defense is horrendous. Borderline unplayable.


Borderline?

Image

on/ff of -6

I would say Rondo, Daniels, Dudley are all unplayable. They aren't young enough that you expect them to improve over the season, this is as good as it gets for them.


I don't like certain very specific stat bec it doesn't deduce the overall worth and performance of a player. From that stat, it also says Quin Cook looks better than more than 10 players INCLUDING (in 10TH PLACE Davis), Green, Howard etc etc etc etc. :o
If you use the WS, OWS, BPM, OBPM etc, it will show Rondo is better than players like Caruso, Bradley too but I am not saying Rondo is a great player who should play heavy minutes.
He is not great but he is that bad either IMO.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#23 » by thebigbird » Tue Dec 3, 2019 11:40 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:As much as people may argue about his offense, whether it’s his ball dominance, creating for others, outside shooting, truth is his defense is horrendous. Borderline unplayable.


Borderline?

Image

on/ff of -6

I would say Rondo, Daniels, Dudley are all unplayable. They aren't young enough that you expect them to improve over the season, this is as good as it gets for them.


I don't like certain very specific stat bec it doesn't deduce the overall worth and performance of a player. From that stat, it also says Quin Cook looks better than more than 10 players INCLUDING (in 10TH PLACE Davis), Green, Howard etc etc etc etc. :o
If you use the WS, OWS, BPM, OBPM etc, it will show Rondo is better than players like Caruso, Bradley too but I am not saying Rondo is a great player who should play heavy minutes.
He is not great but he is that bad either IMO.

Davis is 10th because he plays a bunch of minutes with Rondo, and the pairing has been terrible. You're not really pointing to anything to suggest he's "not that bad either." He's been a net negative on every team he's been on since 2012. That's a good measure of his overall worth. It's why he's bounced around from team to team.

I don't care what his WS, BPM, etc. are. His numbers are skewed because he hunts for assists to the detriment of the team. I care how the team does when he's on the court, and they've been really bad.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#24 » by Kilroy » Tue Dec 3, 2019 11:47 pm

Why is no one talking about the real story in that spreadsheet... Kostas needs minutes!
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#25 » by zimpy27 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 12:04 am

Kilroy wrote:Why is no one talking about the real story in that spreadsheet... Kostas needs minutes!


If Kuzma is gone then Kostas probably takes some spot minutes.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#26 » by mcscotty » Wed Dec 4, 2019 4:43 am

Rondo is playing awesome ball. He's hitting shots and finding the open man. Not to mention his overlooked role as the agitator/pest that gets under opponent's skin.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#27 » by Cafu » Wed Dec 4, 2019 8:46 am

He is a role player and role player will have up and down. You guy should not work up every time he throws a stinker hehe
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#28 » by evilpimp972 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 9:36 am

1 good game / 1 bad game split, i will take it though. He looks better than last year because he's shooting absurdly good behind the arc. I'm kinda scared since I know he won't keep this up.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#29 » by Rosque » Wed Dec 4, 2019 11:39 am

He's arguably having his best season since 2012. Sometimes it seems like y'all just circlejerking.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#30 » by evilpimp972 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 12:12 pm

Rosque wrote:He's arguably having his best season since 2012. Sometimes it seems like y'all just circlejerking.

Are you serious? He was way better in Chicago. Even in New Orleans. Some nights (like vs Dallas) he looks like the worst player on the court and you think he's having his best season since 2012? :o
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Kevin Durant is a better scorer than Jordan

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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#31 » by Rosque » Wed Dec 4, 2019 12:13 pm

Yeah.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#32 » by dAdo dA dEvil » Wed Dec 4, 2019 12:16 pm

Rondo is doing fine. I'm fine keeping him just to be sure there is someone in this team who is willing to throw a punch and refuse to back down from opponents. Plus he shoots pretty well from the 3 and can make good passes. Come playoff time and I see a playoff Rondo then it's a bonus.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#33 » by Ball so hard » Wed Dec 4, 2019 3:22 pm

dockingsched wrote:As much as people may argue about his offense, whether it’s his ball dominance, creating for others, outside shooting, truth is his defense is horrendous. Borderline unplayable.


The biggest issue I have with Rondo is his lack of effort on defense. There's absolutely no reason why he should be as you put it, borderline unplayable. His effort on defense is very inconsistent... I thought his effort last night against the Nuggets was good.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#34 » by Spanish_Laker » Wed Dec 4, 2019 3:34 pm

Best shooter on the team. Who would have thought it?
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#35 » by Ball so hard » Wed Dec 4, 2019 3:41 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:As much as people may argue about his offense, whether it’s his ball dominance, creating for others, outside shooting, truth is his defense is horrendous. Borderline unplayable.


Borderline?

Image

on/ff of -6

I would say Rondo, Daniels, Dudley are all unplayable. They aren't young enough that you expect them to improve over the season, this is as good as it gets for them.


That number certainly isn't good. However, neither Cook nor Caruso are the answers. Cook barely plays, as he shouldn't. He's simply not very good. Caruso is currently excelling in the role that he's playing and I wouldn't want to change it. There are serious spacing issues with Caruso on the court, to the point his net rating would take a serious hit if his role were expanded to let's say, taking all of Rondo's minutes as many are advocating. We desperately need another guard that can create... We don't have a suitable replacement on our roster.

Caruso's on/off on offense is a -6 vs Rondo's -1.4... this is enough to pull down an offense which I don't think is all that great to begin with.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#36 » by tamaraw08 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 4:23 pm

thebigbird wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Borderline?

Image

on/ff of -6

I would say Rondo, Daniels, Dudley are all unplayable. They aren't young enough that you expect them to improve over the season, this is as good as it gets for them.


I don't like certain very specific stat bec it doesn't deduce the overall worth and performance of a player. From that stat, it also says Quin Cook looks better than more than 10 players INCLUDING (in 10TH PLACE Davis), Green, Howard etc etc etc etc. :o
If you use the WS, OWS, BPM, OBPM etc, it will show Rondo is better than players like Caruso, Bradley too but I am not saying Rondo is a great player who should play heavy minutes.
He is not great but he is that bad either IMO.

Davis is 10th because he plays a bunch of minutes with Rondo, and the pairing has been terrible. You're not really pointing to anything to suggest he's "not that bad either." He's been a net negative on every team he's been on since 2012. That's a good measure of his overall worth. It's why he's bounced around from team to team.

I don't care what his WS, BPM, etc. are. His numbers are skewed because he hunts for assists to the detriment of the team. I care how the team does when he's on the court, and they've been really bad.

But thats the thing, you said, I can't point out stats to prove he's not that bad but you don't care about other stats like WS and BPM :banghead:
It's true, at times he hunts for assists but I don't think it's always the case.
How about 3pt shooting? TS%, PER, in DRTG he's better than Bradley, KCP AND Kuzma.
Again I don't like just taking one freaking stat to assess one's player value.
You mentioned AD and Rondo is a terrible combo? currently the top 6 in minutes played from 177 minutes (Kuzma +4.1 to KCP's 79 mins generates a positive score including AD for 128 mins +3.3. Yes, this will fluctuate but again Lakers do NOT have any LEGIT PG who can provide relief for Lebron. Actually, the James/Rondo combo now has a +12.3 (135 mins) tied for 4th for 2-man combo better than James/AD.
Also in his last playoffs with the Pelicans, the team was a + 7.4 with him on the court with a -5.6 when he's off.
Again I am not saying Rondo is the answer for the Lakers specific problems. Yes, he is not a good defender, yes, at times he hunts for assists but I just don't see Cook, Daniels and others can REALLY facilitate this teams' offense when James sits, can you?
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#37 » by Landsberger » Wed Dec 4, 2019 4:28 pm

Someone list the variables for the vaunted "on-off" statistic. List them all in terms of the true dynamics of a basketball game. List all of them based on different opponents, different opponent lineups, different venues, different personal situations, different physical status (injury sickness etc.). List them in terms of different game situations (score, pace, etc.).

This is a junk statistic IMHO. It rolls up a few hundred variables without any interdependencies into a easy to consume statistic. The underlying dependent variables are not visible or even statistically recognized.

The idea that someone is "unplayable" based on this statistic alone is asinine at the least.... Does anyone really thing the staff should be using this to create the lineups or dole out playing time? Anyone believe we should trade anyone below a certain level for someone who has been is a completely different situation who "ranks" higher in this metric.

Based on this statistic Davis shouldn't be playing over Howard either if we're being honest about the statistic's validity. We traded away the bulk of last years team for him along with a bunch of picks.... why isn't anyone questioning that based on this statistic... or does he rise above it because he's a star?
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#38 » by zimpy27 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 4:45 pm

Landsberger wrote:Someone list the variables for the vaunted "on-off" statistic. List them all in terms of the true dynamics of a basketball game. List all of them based on different opponents, different opponent lineups, different venues, different personal situations, different physical status (injury sickness etc.). List them in terms of different game situations (score, pace, etc.).

This is a junk statistic IMHO. It rolls up a few hundred variables without any interdependencies into a easy to consume statistic. The underlying dependent variables are not visible or even statistically recognized.

The idea that someone is "unplayable" based on this statistic alone is asinine at the least.... Does anyone really thing the staff should be using this to create the lineups or dole out playing time? Anyone believe we should trade anyone below a certain level for someone who has been is a completely different situation who "ranks" higher in this metric.

Based on this statistic Davis shouldn't be playing over Howard either if we're being honest about the statistic's validity. We traded away the bulk of last years team for him along with a bunch of picks.... why isn't anyone questioning that based on this statistic... or does he rise above it because he's a star?


No statistic can tell you that. You have the eye test for that. These stats just add more colour to the eye test.

RAPM was made to deal with the variable you speak of but even that struggles.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#39 » by thebigbird » Wed Dec 4, 2019 4:48 pm

tamaraw08 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
tamaraw08 wrote:
I don't like certain very specific stat bec it doesn't deduce the overall worth and performance of a player. From that stat, it also says Quin Cook looks better than more than 10 players INCLUDING (in 10TH PLACE Davis), Green, Howard etc etc etc etc. :o
If you use the WS, OWS, BPM, OBPM etc, it will show Rondo is better than players like Caruso, Bradley too but I am not saying Rondo is a great player who should play heavy minutes.
He is not great but he is that bad either IMO.

Davis is 10th because he plays a bunch of minutes with Rondo, and the pairing has been terrible. You're not really pointing to anything to suggest he's "not that bad either." He's been a net negative on every team he's been on since 2012. That's a good measure of his overall worth. It's why he's bounced around from team to team.

I don't care what his WS, BPM, etc. are. His numbers are skewed because he hunts for assists to the detriment of the team. I care how the team does when he's on the court, and they've been really bad.

But thats the thing, you said, I can't point out stats to prove he's not that bad but you don't care about other stats like WS and BPM :banghead:
It's true, at times he hunts for assists but I don't think it's always the case.
How about 3pt shooting? TS%, PER, in DRTG he's better than Bradley, KCP AND Kuzma.
Again I don't like just taking one freaking stat to assess one's player value.
You mentioned AD and Rondo is a terrible combo? currently the top 6 in minutes played from 177 minutes (Kuzma +4.1 to KCP's 79 mins generates a positive score including AD for 128 mins +3.3. Yes, this will fluctuate but again Lakers do NOT have any LEGIT PG who can provide relief for Lebron. Actually, the James/Rondo combo now has a +12.3 (135 mins) tied for 4th for 2-man combo better than James/AD.
Also in his last playoffs with the Pelicans, the team was a + 7.4 with him on the court with a -5.6 when he's off.
Again I am not saying Rondo is the answer for the Lakers specific problems. Yes, he is not a good defender, yes, at times he hunts for assists but I just don't see Cook, Daniels and others can REALLY facilitate this teams' offense when James sits, can you?

Rondo and AD have a +1.0 net rating together in 127 minutes. That's not very good. Rondo has a negative BPM, so not sure why you'd point to that as a + in Rondo's favor. Rondo has a worse defensive rating than Bradley and Kuzma. Rondo's defensive rating when LeBron is off the court is absolutely atrocious. What's the point of having a player on the team whose role is to play when LeBron sits, when the only time he's playable is when he actually does play with LeBron? You point to his net rating with LeBron, and sure it's good, but it's lower than LeBron's net rating with Quinn Cook, Alex Caruso, and Avery Bradley. So, those three guys should be playing point guard next to LeBron before Rondo does.

You say that you don't like taking "one freaking stat" to assess a player's value. How valuable can a player be when his team is much better when he doesn't play than when he does play? It's incredibly obvious that Rondo is hurting the Lakers, both by the eye test and by the numbers. If you choose not to believe that, that's your choice.
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Re: Thoughts on Rondo so far? 

Post#40 » by zimpy27 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 4:55 pm

Ball so hard wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:As much as people may argue about his offense, whether it’s his ball dominance, creating for others, outside shooting, truth is his defense is horrendous. Borderline unplayable.


Borderline?

Image

on/ff of -6

I would say Rondo, Daniels, Dudley are all unplayable. They aren't young enough that you expect them to improve over the season, this is as good as it gets for them.


That number certainly isn't good. However, neither Cook nor Caruso are the answers. Cook barely plays, as he shouldn't. He's simply not very good. Caruso is currently excelling in the role that he's playing and I wouldn't want to change it. There are serious spacing issues with Caruso on the court, to the point his net rating would take a serious hit if his role were expanded to let's say, taking all of Rondo's minutes as many are advocating. We desperately need another guard that can create... We don't have a suitable replacement on our roster.

Caruso's on/off on offense is a -6 vs Rondo's -1.4... this is enough to pull down an offense which I don't think is all that great to begin with.


I agree, I think Statoransky might be an achievable option for the team to trade for.
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