Game 47: Los Angeles Lakers (36-10) vs. Portland Trail Blazers (21-27) - 10:30 PM ET

[NippySudz]

Some is construction of team some is him stepping back. Lebron has had this argument dating back to Larry Hughes who got neutered and didn’t know what to do when he handled the ball so much less with Bron than he did even sharing it with Gilbert and Jamison. Wade and Bron had fit issues. And we know what Love and Bosh said about being the third guy. Now he and Kyrie vibed but couldn’t get along, and honestly it would have been best for both of them if they pressed Kyrie to come to la tbh.

I’m looking at bron team and I’m looking and saying why can’t he groom Kuzma and KCP into starters and what he needs?

It may sound crazy to you but the fact is Fish wasn’t this grand playmaker even at his peak in 01. KCP could do everything a fisher or Harper does if he’s groomed that way. There is no point guard he can’t chase, he’s a knock down shooter, and he boards pretty good too. Bron should be advocating for him starting games and playing 30mins a night.

I’m looking at you saying but Kobe had ARIZA. And I’ll say but Kobe made him too. Trevor was a good out the league, not known for offense or defense, he was just the guy that got Mitch off that terrible cook deal like Shannon was the guy who got him off the Radmanovic deal. Kobe gave TREVOR what he called a bible on how to defend this guy, worked on his shot, watched film and made him relevant as a role player. Here we are and people say well Kuzma is lost and doesn’t get his role, he’s not holding down the sixth man spot, despite not getting the time. But we have seen Kuzma defend much better this year. And in times of trouble we have seen Kuz reach out to Kobe or worthy who said he talked with him, but that’s the problem. Kuzma is swingman size, shown he can challenge a Westbrook, shown he can understand some concepts one on one, but I don’t see Bron leading him that way and teaching him. To me there’s no reason he can’t be the Green replacement in the lineup and be tasked with defending the best wing of Bron is willing to teach him how and Vogel to live with the mistakes that Trevor, George, etc all made as they developed on that end.

I mean I’m looking at KCP and Kuzma and saying they should be the starting back court for this team and Bron should be in their ear everyday with their age, athletic ability, and talent.

Fisher didn't need to be a play maker. The Lakers ran the triangle offense. It wasn't predicated on a primary playmaker.
And I agree to disagree about LeBron not making his teammates better.

Trevor ariza is still good lol. He put in that work to be good. Playing with Kobe helped him but ariza put in the work... KCP was garbage for like a year and a half. He's now playing decent. There has been plenty of guys that LeBron James have gotten paid or that played well with him but don't play well when he leaves.

He elevates their talents to an unsustainable level. When you hear teammates and former teammates talk about LeBron, they speak very highly of him. You make it sound like LeBron punched in and play basketball and goes home.

I doubt that's the case.

Every player has a ceiling..Kobe has had teammates he couldn't make decent players. I don't expect LeBron to make kuzma into tje role he needs. Fits exist. You need the right fit for championship teams.


Nick young isn't someone Kobe could transform into a piece he needs so I don't expect LeBron to do the same with kuzma.

It's up to the guy(s) to put in the work.

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I think Lebron likes his niche player. The shooter that works hard and he will ride for and support them. You give him a Korver, Battier, Miller, Frye, Daniels, Gibson, Mo etc and I think he vibes with that on a different level than anything else. I know I’ve never seen a Bron team and thought damn that swing player really developed his game or that big guy really got to dominate inside before AD.

Kobe made Ariza a starter, Ariza worked for it but Kobe pushes him there and he learned some tricks on both ends. Kobe helped make Bynum an all star. Kobe would sit back and let Luke Walton run the offense and call post up plays for him and work off of him when we had the smush teams because Waldron was his third option.

I’ve always felt Kobe was more adaptable to the prices around him. Kobe was clay for instance and he would give up his spots and areas if it meant he could get the most from a Odom, Walton, Bynum, Pau, or Shaq type and had tone out his sweet spots. My biggest criticism of Bron has always been that I felt he didn’t do the same because I thought he could be greater off the ball in Miami with Wade, that he could use Bosh or Love as post up options and attack but he’s really not that dude. He’s an I got it at the top of the floor I set the table for you, the 3 point corner fling pass while going down hill, and here take your turn I’ll stand away from the ball Kyrie/Wade/AD guy.

I see Kuzma as having put in some work that’s the difference. He’s literally hitting over 50% from corner 3s and he’s playing solid D. He just doesn’t know what is expected of him or when he will play fully. I mean if you bring in Bogdanovic for instance the problems still arise as he’s not handling the ball, he’s not getting 30mins, and he’s not defending a swing.

I think the phrase they have enough is true, but some of it is going to be teaching guys who haven’t been in this spot and won before how to win. Lebron likes older players, always has, even before going to Miami he asked for the Wally, Shaq, Jamison, etc types because he doesn’t have to teach. There still comes a point though where he has to teach is my point. We have seen Kobe teach before and take the youngest team 08-10 at the time of the past twenty years to the finals with no one but Fisher and Luke having really experience or knowing about winning. I think there comes a teaching moment on his end with Kuzma and KCP both this year if he accepts it and he pays the ultimate benefits for it with a title. That’s me though, i said last summer that kcp and Kuzma should start so I’m sticking with it. I think they have the talent but need the instruction and hey maybe that’s not something Lebron teaches them and I’m wrong, but the playoffs itself actually teaches them game to game with a guy like Handy helping them

I agree with you, Kobe was more easier to plugin to a system. Kawhi Leonard is similiar. But I'm not posting aboit Kobe vs LeBron. I'm merely posting about Lakers having to do what gives LeBron the best chance to win it for the Lakers

The kobe-lebron comparisons are redherrings.

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[kblo247]

Fisher didn't need to be a play maker. The Lakers ran the triangle offense. It wasn't predicated on a primary playmaker.
And I agree to disagree about LeBron not making his teammates better.

Trevor ariza is still good lol. He put in that work to be good. Playing with Kobe helped him but ariza put in the work... KCP was garbage for like a year and a half. He's now playing decent. There has been plenty of guys that LeBron James have gotten paid or that played well with him but don't play well when he leaves.

He elevates their talents to an unsustainable level. When you hear teammates and former teammates talk about LeBron, they speak very highly of him. You make it sound like LeBron punched in and play basketball and goes home.

I doubt that's the case.

Every player has a ceiling..Kobe has had teammates he couldn't make decent players. I don't expect LeBron to make kuzma into tje role he needs. Fits exist. You need the right fit for championship teams.


Nick young isn't someone Kobe could transform into a piece he needs so I don't expect LeBron to do the same with kuzma.

It's up to the guy(s) to put in the work.

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Tapatalk

I think Lebron likes his niche player. The shooter that works hard and he will ride for and support them. You give him a Korver, Battier, Miller, Frye, Daniels, Gibson, Mo etc and I think he vibes with that on a different level than anything else. I know I’ve never seen a Bron team and thought damn that swing player really developed his game or that big guy really got to dominate inside before AD.

Kobe made Ariza a starter, Ariza worked for it but Kobe pushes him there and he learned some tricks on both ends. Kobe helped make Bynum an all star. Kobe would sit back and let Luke Walton run the offense and call post up plays for him and work off of him when we had the smush teams because Waldron was his third option.

I’ve always felt Kobe was more adaptable to the prices around him. Kobe was clay for instance and he would give up his spots and areas if it meant he could get the most from a Odom, Walton, Bynum, Pau, or Shaq type and had tone out his sweet spots. My biggest criticism of Bron has always been that I felt he didn’t do the same because I thought he could be greater off the ball in Miami with Wade, that he could use Bosh or Love as post up options and attack but he’s really not that dude. He’s an I got it at the top of the floor I set the table for you, the 3 point corner fling pass while going down hill, and here take your turn I’ll stand away from the ball Kyrie/Wade/AD guy.

I see Kuzma as having put in some work that’s the difference. He’s literally hitting over 50% from corner 3s and he’s playing solid D. He just doesn’t know what is expected of him or when he will play fully. I mean if you bring in Bogdanovic for instance the problems still arise as he’s not handling the ball, he’s not getting 30mins, and he’s not defending a swing.

I think the phrase they have enough is true, but some of it is going to be teaching guys who haven’t been in this spot and won before how to win. Lebron likes older players, always has, even before going to Miami he asked for the Wally, Shaq, Jamison, etc types because he doesn’t have to teach. There still comes a point though where he has to teach is my point. We have seen Kobe teach before and take the youngest team 08-10 at the time of the past twenty years to the finals with no one but Fisher and Luke having really experience or knowing about winning. I think there comes a teaching moment on his end with Kuzma and KCP both this year if he accepts it and he pays the ultimate benefits for it with a title. That’s me though, i said last summer that kcp and Kuzma should start so I’m sticking with it. I think they have the talent but need the instruction and hey maybe that’s not something Lebron teaches them and I’m wrong, but the playoffs itself actually teaches them game to game with a guy like Handy helping them

I agree with you, Kobe was more easier to plugin to a system. Kawhi Leonard is similiar. But I'm not posting aboit Kobe vs LeBron. I'm merely posting about Lakers having to do what gives LeBron the best chance to win it for the Lakers

The kobe-lebron comparisons are redherrings.

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Then let me ask you, who is that guy or guys you think they can go get and that gives LEBron that chance?

We saw Rose in Cleveland run away from the circus because of his mental health dealing with it all, and now LA has a bigger microscope. If I'm Memphis and I'm in the 8th spot I'm not sending Iggy to no team via buyout because it sends a terrible message to the players and we look like fool paying almost all his salary only for him to beat us as a 1/2 seed. And Bogdanovic is small and has overlap with all our other guards and he was unhappy in Sacramento getting actual sixth man minutes let alone the minutes Kuzma gets and shot attempts.

I mean I can personally see Markieff Morris as useful because he's another stretch big and it allows you to either slide Kuz down to the wing or move Kuz for a guard. Covington is another but I'm weary because I remember how he could not dribble at all vs Boston in the playoffs. I can't think of another guy on a team who is feasible and fits in short of Collison who is at home and even then we never know where his head might be since he retired to be with family and last week was a wake up that life is very short.

[tamaraw08]

Fisher didn't need to be a play maker. The Lakers ran the triangle offense. It wasn't predicated on a primary playmaker.
And I agree to disagree about LeBron not making his teammates better.

Trevor ariza is still good lol. He put in that work to be good. Playing with Kobe helped him but ariza put in the work... KCP was garbage for like a year and a half. He's now playing decent. There has been plenty of guys that LeBron James have gotten paid or that played well with him but don't play well when he leaves.

He elevates their talents to an unsustainable level. When you hear teammates and former teammates talk about LeBron, they speak very highly of him. You make it sound like LeBron punched in and play basketball and goes home.

I doubt that's the case.

Every player has a ceiling..Kobe has had teammates he couldn't make decent players. I don't expect LeBron to make kuzma into tje role he needs. Fits exist. You need the right fit for championship teams.


Nick young isn't someone Kobe could transform into a piece he needs so I don't expect LeBron to do the same with kuzma.

It's up to the guy(s) to put in the work.

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Tapatalk

I think Lebron likes his niche player. The shooter that works hard and he will ride for and support them. You give him a Korver, Battier, Miller, Frye, Daniels, Gibson, Mo etc and I think he vibes with that on a different level than anything else. I know I’ve never seen a Bron team and thought damn that swing player really developed his game or that big guy really got to dominate inside before AD.

Kobe made Ariza a starter, Ariza worked for it but Kobe pushes him there and he learned some tricks on both ends. Kobe helped make Bynum an all star. Kobe would sit back and let Luke Walton run the offense and call post up plays for him and work off of him when we had the smush teams because Waldron was his third option.

I’ve always felt Kobe was more adaptable to the prices around him. Kobe was clay for instance and he would give up his spots and areas if it meant he could get the most from a Odom, Walton, Bynum, Pau, or Shaq type and had tone out his sweet spots. My biggest criticism of Bron has always been that I felt he didn’t do the same because I thought he could be greater off the ball in Miami with Wade, that he could use Bosh or Love as post up options and attack but he’s really not that dude. He’s an I got it at the top of the floor I set the table for you, the 3 point corner fling pass while going down hill, and here take your turn I’ll stand away from the ball Kyrie/Wade/AD guy.

I see Kuzma as having put in some work that’s the difference. He’s literally hitting over 50% from corner 3s and he’s playing solid D. He just doesn’t know what is expected of him or when he will play fully. I mean if you bring in Bogdanovic for instance the problems still arise as he’s not handling the ball, he’s not getting 30mins, and he’s not defending a swing.

I think the phrase they have enough is true, but some of it is going to be teaching guys who haven’t been in this spot and won before how to win. Lebron likes older players, always has, even before going to Miami he asked for the Wally, Shaq, Jamison, etc types because he doesn’t have to teach. There still comes a point though where he has to teach is my point. We have seen Kobe teach before and take the youngest team 08-10 at the time of the past twenty years to the finals with no one but Fisher and Luke having really experience or knowing about winning. I think there comes a teaching moment on his end with Kuzma and KCP both this year if he accepts it and he pays the ultimate benefits for it with a title. That’s me though, i said last summer that kcp and Kuzma should start so I’m sticking with it. I think they have the talent but need the instruction and hey maybe that’s not something Lebron teaches them and I’m wrong, but the playoffs itself actually teaches them game to game with a guy like Handy helping them

Kuzma does not play solid defense. Kuzma has shown flashes of solid defense but that's not enough to say he's a solid defender. Far from it. Kuzma is overrated. I know you love him but he's overrated. He's not a starter. He's a volume scorer off the bench. His bball IQ is also low and he makes poor decisions.

The role coming off the bench is perfect for him. To score in bunches then sit down. I don't think he's a starter on a championship team. I don't think Kobe, LeBron or any great player can make him more than what he is or what his ceiling is.

He had a mentor relationship with kobe irrc, so did Jordan Clarkson. They are who everyone thought they were. Playing with Kobe and being mentored afterwards didn't change that for Clarkson.

It's about fit . I understand your point about LeBron wanting vets. Less teaching but imo, it's about fit. He barked at Chalmers a lot and Chalmers was serviceable. Chalmers is not even in the league anymore.

I agree kcp should start but I don't think him starting would be the difference maker between the Lakers winning more games and the championship. He's playing better than Danny green but their issue is lack of playmaking and bigger physical wings. KCP is a solid defender. KCP cannot guard kawhi Leonard. He tried his ass off and did a good job. He just couldn't. LeBron mentoring him or demanding more from kcp won't change that.

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I'm sure Kobe helped a lot of players improved on their game but I'm just struggling to accept that Kobe was the only reason why he he improved vastly.
Kobe's last year, his team was 30th in DRTG and lost 65 games, the year before that, 29th in DRTG AND lost 61 games, you would think Kobe would start barking at EVERY SINGLE teammate from day 1 of training camp to adapt that mamba mentality and learn from him. Break down plays, watch tons of film but who exactly benefited from Kobe's brilliance?
You're right, it has to be the right fit, a player needs the best work ethic along with enough IQ to learn. But for me Kuzma is still learning to play the right way. He is trying and he has shown flashes but the main issue is his position and make up. He is a combo SF/Pf, both positions are occupied by Lebron and AD and unfortunately he can't chase quick SGs at 6-9 and he is struggling to shoot from the 3pt area. AD hates to bang bodies vs huge centers and you have to keep him happy. I was hoping Lebron and Rondo would set him up better from his sweet spots and that Vogel would design better sets for him to be in better situations to succeed but it hasn't materialized for the most of the season.

[thebigbird]

Lol reading some of these comments you'd think the Lakers were fighting for a playoff berth instead of sitting in the #1 spot in the West. Good lord. The Lakers problems aren't with LeBron. The Lakers are incredible with LeBron on the court. The problem is that the team completely craters when he goes to the bench. You can't blame him for what happens when he's on the bench, but unsurprisingly some people are trying their hardest to do exactly that.

[NippySudz]

I think Lebron likes his niche player. The shooter that works hard and he will ride for and support them. You give him a Korver, Battier, Miller, Frye, Daniels, Gibson, Mo etc and I think he vibes with that on a different level than anything else. I know I’ve never seen a Bron team and thought damn that swing player really developed his game or that big guy really got to dominate inside before AD.

Kobe made Ariza a starter, Ariza worked for it but Kobe pushes him there and he learned some tricks on both ends. Kobe helped make Bynum an all star. Kobe would sit back and let Luke Walton run the offense and call post up plays for him and work off of him when we had the smush teams because Waldron was his third option.

I’ve always felt Kobe was more adaptable to the prices around him. Kobe was clay for instance and he would give up his spots and areas if it meant he could get the most from a Odom, Walton, Bynum, Pau, or Shaq type and had tone out his sweet spots. My biggest criticism of Bron has always been that I felt he didn’t do the same because I thought he could be greater off the ball in Miami with Wade, that he could use Bosh or Love as post up options and attack but he’s really not that dude. He’s an I got it at the top of the floor I set the table for you, the 3 point corner fling pass while going down hill, and here take your turn I’ll stand away from the ball Kyrie/Wade/AD guy.

I see Kuzma as having put in some work that’s the difference. He’s literally hitting over 50% from corner 3s and he’s playing solid D. He just doesn’t know what is expected of him or when he will play fully. I mean if you bring in Bogdanovic for instance the problems still arise as he’s not handling the ball, he’s not getting 30mins, and he’s not defending a swing.

I think the phrase they have enough is true, but some of it is going to be teaching guys who haven’t been in this spot and won before how to win. Lebron likes older players, always has, even before going to Miami he asked for the Wally, Shaq, Jamison, etc types because he doesn’t have to teach. There still comes a point though where he has to teach is my point. We have seen Kobe teach before and take the youngest team 08-10 at the time of the past twenty years to the finals with no one but Fisher and Luke having really experience or knowing about winning. I think there comes a teaching moment on his end with Kuzma and KCP both this year if he accepts it and he pays the ultimate benefits for it with a title. That’s me though, i said last summer that kcp and Kuzma should start so I’m sticking with it. I think they have the talent but need the instruction and hey maybe that’s not something Lebron teaches them and I’m wrong, but the playoffs itself actually teaches them game to game with a guy like Handy helping them

Kuzma does not play solid defense. Kuzma has shown flashes of solid defense but that's not enough to say he's a solid defender. Far from it. Kuzma is overrated. I know you love him but he's overrated. He's not a starter. He's a volume scorer off the bench. His bball IQ is also low and he makes poor decisions.

The role coming off the bench is perfect for him. To score in bunches then sit down. I don't think he's a starter on a championship team. I don't think Kobe, LeBron or any great player can make him more than what he is or what his ceiling is.

He had a mentor relationship with kobe irrc, so did Jordan Clarkson. They are who everyone thought they were. Playing with Kobe and being mentored afterwards didn't change that for Clarkson.

It's about fit . I understand your point about LeBron wanting vets. Less teaching but imo, it's about fit. He barked at Chalmers a lot and Chalmers was serviceable. Chalmers is not even in the league anymore.

I agree kcp should start but I don't think him starting would be the difference maker between the Lakers winning more games and the championship. He's playing better than Danny green but their issue is lack of playmaking and bigger physical wings. KCP is a solid defender. KCP cannot guard kawhi Leonard. He tried his ass off and did a good job. He just couldn't. LeBron mentoring him or demanding more from kcp won't change that.

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I'm sure Kobe helped a lot of players improved on their game but I'm just struggling to accept that Kobe was the only reason why he he improved vastly.
Kobe's last year, his team was 30th in DRTG and lost 65 games, the year before that, 29th in DRTG AND lost 61 games, you would think Kobe would start barking at EVERY SINGLE teammate from day 1 of training camp to adapt that mamba mentality and learn from him. Break down plays, watch tons of film but who exactly benefited from Kobe's brilliance?
You're right, it has to be the right fit, a player needs the best work ethic along with enough IQ to learn. But for me Kuzma is still learning to play the right way. He is trying and he has shown flashes but the main issue is his position and make up. He is a combo SF/Pf, both positions are occupied by Lebron and AD and unfortunately he can't chase quick SGs at 6-9 and he is struggling to shoot from the 3pt area. AD hates to bang bodies vs huge centers and you have to keep him happy. I was hoping Lebron and Rondo would set him up better from his sweet spots and that Vogel would design better sets for him to be in better situations to succeed but it hasn't materialized for the most of the season.

Saying this as a Kobe fan but that's the problem with Kobe fans throughout his career is that people over-romanticized his career even when he was alive. Kobe was a killer. There's no doubt about that but Kobe didn't win every year or made literally every single teammate better as people here want you to believe.

The triangle is designed that you don't need a primary playmaker. It was successful in Chicago too. Kobe never had that offensive load. Frank Vogel isn't known for his offensive playcalling. I don't know where that angle of Kobe had to do not offensively came from. It simply isn't true.

I don't believe kuzma is a winner. I believe the Lakers can win with him because of LeBron and ad but kuzma is not a winner. When he's locked in offensively, he can score like crazy but does he do all the little things to win? No. Will he ever? I don't know. I think his ceiling if volume scorer.

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[NippySudz]

I think Lebron likes his niche player. The shooter that works hard and he will ride for and support them. You give him a Korver, Battier, Miller, Frye, Daniels, Gibson, Mo etc and I think he vibes with that on a different level than anything else. I know I’ve never seen a Bron team and thought damn that swing player really developed his game or that big guy really got to dominate inside before AD.

Kobe made Ariza a starter, Ariza worked for it but Kobe pushes him there and he learned some tricks on both ends. Kobe helped make Bynum an all star. Kobe would sit back and let Luke Walton run the offense and call post up plays for him and work off of him when we had the smush teams because Waldron was his third option.

I’ve always felt Kobe was more adaptable to the prices around him. Kobe was clay for instance and he would give up his spots and areas if it meant he could get the most from a Odom, Walton, Bynum, Pau, or Shaq type and had tone out his sweet spots. My biggest criticism of Bron has always been that I felt he didn’t do the same because I thought he could be greater off the ball in Miami with Wade, that he could use Bosh or Love as post up options and attack but he’s really not that dude. He’s an I got it at the top of the floor I set the table for you, the 3 point corner fling pass while going down hill, and here take your turn I’ll stand away from the ball Kyrie/Wade/AD guy.

I see Kuzma as having put in some work that’s the difference. He’s literally hitting over 50% from corner 3s and he’s playing solid D. He just doesn’t know what is expected of him or when he will play fully. I mean if you bring in Bogdanovic for instance the problems still arise as he’s not handling the ball, he’s not getting 30mins, and he’s not defending a swing.

I think the phrase they have enough is true, but some of it is going to be teaching guys who haven’t been in this spot and won before how to win. Lebron likes older players, always has, even before going to Miami he asked for the Wally, Shaq, Jamison, etc types because he doesn’t have to teach. There still comes a point though where he has to teach is my point. We have seen Kobe teach before and take the youngest team 08-10 at the time of the past twenty years to the finals with no one but Fisher and Luke having really experience or knowing about winning. I think there comes a teaching moment on his end with Kuzma and KCP both this year if he accepts it and he pays the ultimate benefits for it with a title. That’s me though, i said last summer that kcp and Kuzma should start so I’m sticking with it. I think they have the talent but need the instruction and hey maybe that’s not something Lebron teaches them and I’m wrong, but the playoffs itself actually teaches them game to game with a guy like Handy helping them

I agree with you, Kobe was more easier to plugin to a system. Kawhi Leonard is similiar. But I'm not posting aboit Kobe vs LeBron. I'm merely posting about Lakers having to do what gives LeBron the best chance to win it for the Lakers

The kobe-lebron comparisons are redherrings.

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Then let me ask you, who is that guy or guys you think they can go get and that gives LEBron that chance?

We saw Rose in Cleveland run away from the circus because of his mental health dealing with it all, and now LA has a bigger microscope. If I'm Memphis and I'm in the 8th spot I'm not sending Iggy to no team via buyout because it sends a terrible message to the players and we look like fool paying almost all his salary only for him to beat us as a 1/2 seed. And Bogdanovic is small and has overlap with all our other guards and he was unhappy in Sacramento getting actual sixth man minutes let alone the minutes Kuzma gets and shot attempts.

I mean I can personally see Markieff Morris as useful because he's another stretch big and it allows you to either slide Kuz down to the wing or move Kuz for a guard. Covington is another but I'm weary because I remember how he could not dribble at all vs Boston in the playoffs. I can't think of another guy on a team who is feasible and fits in short of Collison who is at home and even then we never know where his head might be since he retired to be with family and last week was a wake up that life is very short.

I think they're good choices you mentioned. I think bogdonovic is a good one. He can handle the ball and I saw him run a few plays against the Lakers which would take pressure on LeBron to run plays even if a little. I like bjelica too but belly is too old for a trade. He's 31 and it's probably a side trade.


I don't know how realistic any of this is. I think kuzma stays personally and they exolore pieces in the buyout market.

Collison is another name. Playmaker. He's not going to be as big as some people think but he helps a little bit. Better than rondo.

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[NippySudz]

I'll post it in another thread
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