my feeling on this season for the lakers

[tamaraw08]

This season solidified Vogel's standing in my book as not a good but a great coach. It's truly remarkable he was able to keep the team a top rated defensive team despite all the injuries. Offensively our pieces do not fit great so he gets a slight pass on offense. It's obvious his strengths are on the defense. Not long ago many on this board were enamored with Luke Walton and thought he was good coach. Some even went as far as to call him a top 10 coach. Many here will criticize his rotations, but hey, visit any other forum on RealGM and you will see that just about every fan base criticize their coaches' rotations. We as fans are often emotionally invested in certain players and often think we know better. Of course Vogel's rotations aren't perfect. By and large I trust that he knows what he's doing and will get it right most of the times.



I'm in favor of bringing back the core while upgrading at the 1 and 5. The 5 spot I think is a bigger need.

With regards to Luke Walton, I actually gave away his signed autograph the Lakers distributed for season pass holders several years back. I am convinced that Vogel is not a stupid coach, I too never questioned his rotations but I am very vocal about his lack of creativity in establishing good offensive sets that translate to high % shots, so I humbly request you to PLEASE indulge in educating me about the actual schemes he drew the past season aside from that redundant 2-5 screen-roll involving KCP on the right side. In a late game possession, I was impressed with that solid pick provided by Schroder which freed up AD for an easy lay up.....
Suns have that great and prolific screen/roll action which worked too even when CP3 was out. Portland with their horns set, Lue with his 5-out scheme that worked without Kawhi. What exactly did Frank used esp when Lebron is not on the court?
Lakers looked great on defense, but what helped them too is Vogel's refusal to use players who would be vulnerable to mismatches.

I really don't think we differ too much. I agree that his offensive sets weren't great. I gave him a slight pass on offense because I think even a strong offensive minded coach like, let's say D'antoni, would struggle with the group we had. Significant injuries and a shortened offseason only made his job considerably more difficult. Rest assured I'm not saying Vogel is some juggernaut on offense, however, I do think he's more than competent on that end.

Almost every team lost a key player on their team, I think of the Clippers that lost Kawhi, eliminating Utah, Denver losing Murray and then beating Portland, Suns managing to survive and eke out wins without CP3 or Milwaukee without Giannis etc....And even before those injuries, Lakers are so WEAK when Lebron sits down and I hardly see any solid sets, whether a screen/roll and a sound low post entry pass which the Clippers did with Cousins. Not a lot of screens or rubs or even a flash to the basket from the weakside etc.

[tamaraw08]

With regards to Luke Walton, I actually gave away his signed autograph the Lakers distributed for season pass holders several years back. I am convinced that Vogel is not a stupid coach, I too never questioned his rotations but I am very vocal about his lack of creativity in establishing good offensive sets that translate to high % shots, so I humbly request you to PLEASE indulge in educating me about the actual schemes he drew the past season aside from that redundant 2-5 screen-roll involving KCP on the right side. In a late game possession, I was impressed with that solid pick provided by Schroder which freed up AD for an easy lay up.....
Suns have that great and prolific screen/roll action which worked too even when CP3 was out. Portland with their horns set, Lue with his 5-out scheme that worked without Kawhi. What exactly did Frank used esp when Lebron is not on the court?
Lakers looked great on defense, but what helped them too is Vogel's refusal to use players who would be vulnerable to mismatches.

I really don't think we differ too much. I agree that his offensive sets weren't great. I gave him a slight pass on offense because I think even a strong offensive minded coach like, let's say D'antoni, would struggle with the group we had. Significant injuries and a shortened offseason only made his job considerably more difficult. Rest assured I'm not saying Vogel is some juggernaut on offense, however, I do think he's more than competent on that end.

Almost every team lost a key player on their team, I think of the Clippers that lost Kawhi, eliminating Utah, Denver losing Murray and then beating Portland, Suns managing to survive and eke out wins without CP3 or Milwaukee without Giannis etc....And even before those injuries, Lakers are so WEAK when Lebron sits down and I hardly see any solid sets, whether a screen/roll and a sound low post entry pass which the Clippers did with Cousins. Not a lot of screens or rubs or even a flash to the basket from the weakside etc.

I must admit though that I cringed after you called him a "great" coach though. I personally use the term great to very few people, some are very good, good, average, decent etc. Great for me is when Phil lead the Lakers to 8th best in ORTG when Smush Parker and Kwame were playing major minutes, or when Parker and Ginobili got old and Pops managed to navigate his team to still be very good.
I wanted Lue to coach this team bec of his past success in coaching Lebron but I also initially felt defense would not be his strength, holding the Suns to under 105 points in 4 of the first 5 finals games were very impressive IMO,esp doing it without Kawhi, Ibaka etc.
His team also ranked 8th best in DRTG for the regular season minus Ibaka.

[Ball so hard]

Almost every team lost a key player on their team, I think of the Clippers that lost Kawhi, eliminating Utah, Denver losing Murray and then beating Portland, Suns managing to survive and eke out wins without CP3 or Milwaukee without Giannis etc....And even before those injuries, Lakers are so WEAK when Lebron sits down and I hardly see any solid sets, whether a screen/roll and a sound low post entry pass which the Clippers did with Cousins. Not a lot of screens or rubs or even a flash to the basket from the weakside etc.

With the exception of Denver, none of those team missed their star player(s) for an extended period. It's also pretty well known that the Lakers rely on Lebron far more than any other team rely on their star player. Take away Kawhi and you still have a very capable team. Take away Murray and you have a very similar situation. CP3 and Giannis missed 1-2 games? Take away Lebron and you're left with AD who's never carried a team anywhere. All year long I've heard the we need shot creators on our team. We have THT and Schroder and that's about it. One lacks the experience and the other is only adept of creating for himself. All things considered, I'm not convinced Popovich could've taken this team farther.

[tamaraw08]

Almost every team lost a key player on their team, I think of the Clippers that lost Kawhi, eliminating Utah, Denver losing Murray and then beating Portland, Suns managing to survive and eke out wins without CP3 or Milwaukee without Giannis etc....And even before those injuries, Lakers are so WEAK when Lebron sits down and I hardly see any solid sets, whether a screen/roll and a sound low post entry pass which the Clippers did with Cousins. Not a lot of screens or rubs or even a flash to the basket from the weakside etc.

With the exception of Denver, none of those team missed their star player(s) for an extended period. It's also pretty well known that the Lakers rely on Lebron far more than any other team rely on their star player. Take away Kawhi and you still have a very capable team. Take away Murray and you have a very similar situation. CP3 and Giannis missed 1-2 games? Take away Lebron and you're left with AD who's never carried a team anywhere. All year long I've heard the we need shot creators on our team. We have THT and Schroder and that's about it. One lacks the experience and the other is only adept of creating for himself. All things considered, I'm not convinced Popovich could've taken this team farther.

Let me Just be clear that I do not want him fired and I must admit he did a decent job when he didn’t have LeBron and A.D. at the same time during the regular season but it was painful to watch the playoff games whenever Lebron sits especially when david got injured.
Maybe it was unrealistic for me to expect him to draw some smart sets specially during the whole regular season time and use them when LeBron is resting for the playoffs but I just didn’t see any schemes or whatsoever.

[Ball so hard]

Almost every team lost a key player on their team, I think of the Clippers that lost Kawhi, eliminating Utah, Denver losing Murray and then beating Portland, Suns managing to survive and eke out wins without CP3 or Milwaukee without Giannis etc....And even before those injuries, Lakers are so WEAK when Lebron sits down and I hardly see any solid sets, whether a screen/roll and a sound low post entry pass which the Clippers did with Cousins. Not a lot of screens or rubs or even a flash to the basket from the weakside etc.

With the exception of Denver, none of those team missed their star player(s) for an extended period. It's also pretty well known that the Lakers rely on Lebron far more than any other team rely on their star player. Take away Kawhi and you still have a very capable team. Take away Murray and you have a very similar situation. CP3 and Giannis missed 1-2 games? Take away Lebron and you're left with AD who's never carried a team anywhere. All year long I've heard the we need shot creators on our team. We have THT and Schroder and that's about it. One lacks the experience and the other is only adept of creating for himself. All things considered, I'm not convinced Popovich could've taken this team farther.

Let me Just be clear that I do not want him fired and I must admit he did a decent job when he didn’t have LeBron and A.D. at the same time during the regular season but it was painful to watch the playoff games whenever Lebron sits especially when david got injured.
Maybe it was unrealistic for me to expect him to draw some smart sets specially during the whole regular season time and use them when LeBron is resting for the playoffs but I just didn’t see any schemes or whatsoever.

Fair enough. A good portion of this season was painful to watch. We went from being rated top 10 on offense last season to being rated one of the worse this season...my point was this was more a result of injuries and poor roster construction than it was poor coaching.

[tamaraw08]

With the exception of Denver, none of those team missed their star player(s) for an extended period. It's also pretty well known that the Lakers rely on Lebron far more than any other team rely on their star player. Take away Kawhi and you still have a very capable team. Take away Murray and you have a very similar situation. CP3 and Giannis missed 1-2 games? Take away Lebron and you're left with AD who's never carried a team anywhere. All year long I've heard the we need shot creators on our team. We have THT and Schroder and that's about it. One lacks the experience and the other is only adept of creating for himself. All things considered, I'm not convinced Popovich could've taken this team farther.

Let me Just be clear that I do not want him fired and I must admit he did a decent job when he didn’t have LeBron and A.D. at the same time during the regular season but it was painful to watch the playoff games whenever Lebron sits especially when david got injured.
Maybe it was unrealistic for me to expect him to draw some smart sets specially during the whole regular season time and use them when LeBron is resting for the playoffs but I just didn’t see any schemes or whatsoever.

Fair enough. A good portion of this season was painful to watch. We went from being rated top 10 on offense last season to being rated one of the worse this season...my point was this was more a result of injuries and poor roster construction than it was poor coaching.

But this were I cringed and disagree with you.

Ball so hard wrote:
This season solidified Vogel's standing in my book as not a good but a great coach.

Great coaches find ways to make their teams look good by creating systems that maximize their abilities. Phil Jackson lead the Lakers to 8th best in ORTG with the freaking Smush Parker and Kwame playing major minutes, it can be argued that Luke Walton was their 3rd or 4th best player at that time, now that for me is “great coaching” instead of saying oh well Chris Mihm got injured ...or when MJ retired to play Baseball and Krause had to hire journeyman Pete Myers to take Jordans place.
Or Pops losing key vets to retirement etc. I frown when so called experts point to great chemistry as the key because great coaches never had chemistry issues, of course injuries derails their chances but usually they don’t collapse like jenga pieces when it happens.

[LAKESHOW]

Another coaching trait, injury management.
Phil Jackson was a miracle worker when it came to managing Bynum injury prone a**. Did enough with the minutes to keep him afloat. And Bynum gave us critical time during 2 finals runs.
Contrast that with Dantoni, dude just ran Kobe into the ground with heavy minutes.
Vogel must develop that skill. I AS COACH control your minutes, and I will protect you by playing you as I deem necessary.
Instead, vogel seems more Dantoni than Phil

[Ballerhogger]

GOING FOWARD not looking back my thoughts
Sorely need hit scoring guard in FA . Lowry , Spencer Dwinddle how you doing?
GM
Keep Rob the he was able find Drummond for nothing we really got hit by the injuries this season. Obviously if we have bad start next season people will be calling for his heads.
COACH
Keep Frank he made interesting lineups but due to injury he did ok. Passable. 2-1 over the suns before our season was over due to injury.
Starters
Lebron James Gets whole off season to rest and then sum I expect big thing for his last good year before father time comes for him.Hes goat like players I expect goat like comeback.
Anthony Davis hobbled all season he needed a break as well, someone teach him how NOT TO FALL ON THE FLOOR all the time . . Just get stronger he will be ready to go. No excuses this his team and if he wants to be legend around here he will need be here. Kyle Kuzma looking for a guard or young stretch for him would be great . Not really sure why they didn't wait until off season to pay him. His value isn't going be asset in trade deals. . KCP i will trade about anything for him and low draft pick would be more valuable at this.. Keep Marc hes doing ok, a nice vet big is luxury to have .Obviously he limited and will be used sparingly.
Role Players
Deniss has had covid but still lot less to be desired. He had good moments but hes not worth his asking price 20-25m. Monte will opt in if not doesn't bring him back. i like his energy but his mess in the pick and roll. Alex caruso if we can use him a in trade I'm ok with that. He did great things for us but his stays is limited. Jarded doesn't retire lol... Obviously hes fun to watch lol. Markeiff Morris please bring back has few good years left and at low price he is nice stretch 3-4. Andre Drummond his market will be low so i expect him comeback for low price. Ben MacLemore Keep unless we can find a better shooter. Talen Horton we like him and hes only getting better asked to do lot with little experince i expect him to learn and grow from his TO ways. I hope. Wesley Matthews please reitre dude. Your done thanks for being a around winning a few games against the the thunder but yea no thank you. Kostas Antetokounpo wish him the best he going over seas. if the bucks lose he still most winnest Antetokonpo?


Hopefully we can stay healthy where AD , Lebron goes we go. FA will be paramount for Rob see what he can do.

[LeCalinou]

Several things stand out:

- The offseason brought changes, but it was hard ot implement new stuff or help players integrate because of: compressed schedule / covid protocols / too short of a rest period
- Players getting injured, which is not necessarily something you can control
- Being this is a veteran team, there was little time to practice

They lost in the first round to the eventual Finals favourite. The Phoenix Suns are really performing well, hats off to them, because they have a player in Chris Paul that can operate changes and make adjustements.
When you don't have a good floor general, lack of practice, of effort and of communication really stand out.

It is what it is, I root for the Lakers but there was no way they deserved any better.
Looking forward to next year.
A better floor general (Kyle Lowry is a must) and better decision makers (Gasol should be more involved in the offense, plus someone new should be brought in) will make a difference...

[Ball so hard]

Let me Just be clear that I do not want him fired and I must admit he did a decent job when he didn’t have LeBron and A.D. at the same time during the regular season but it was painful to watch the playoff games whenever Lebron sits especially when david got injured.
Maybe it was unrealistic for me to expect him to draw some smart sets specially during the whole regular season time and use them when LeBron is resting for the playoffs but I just didn’t see any schemes or whatsoever.

Fair enough. A good portion of this season was painful to watch. We went from being rated top 10 on offense last season to being rated one of the worse this season...my point was this was more a result of injuries and poor roster construction than it was poor coaching.

But this were I cringed and disagree with you.

Ball so hard wrote:
This season solidified Vogel's standing in my book as not a good but a great coach.

Great coaches find ways to make their teams look good by creating systems that maximize their abilities. Phil Jackson lead the Lakers to 8th best in ORTG with the freaking Smush Parker and Kwame playing major minutes, it can be argued that Luke Walton was their 3rd or 4th best player at that time, now that for me is “great coaching” instead of saying oh well Chris Mihm got injured ...or when MJ retired to play Baseball and Krause had to hire journeyman Pete Myers to take Jordans place.
Or Pops losing key vets to retirement etc. I frown when so called experts point to great chemistry as the key because great coaches never had chemistry issues, of course injuries derails their chances but usually they don’t collapse like jenga pieces when it happens.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Leading the Lakers that had a bunch of bums to the 8th best in ORTG while impressive, is not what made Phil great. Not to take anything away from Phil, but the 8th best ORTG also happened at time when Kobe was playing out of his mind... Kobe's lone MVP came during this season. It's a bit misleading to make it seems as if the team's success was heavily due to Phil's masterful coaching abilities, in spite of having a terrible roster (Smush and Kwame if you prefer). I vaguely remember the offense being mostly "get Kobe the ball and get out of his way." Arguably what Vogel just accomplished (1st in DRTG) is equally as, if not more impressive.

Chris Mihm getting injured?? Chris Mihm was a fringe player. Lebron and AD missed 38% and 50% percent of the season, respectively. MJ retired and top 50 player thrived in an increased role. There's no doubt that Popovich is a great coach... when exactly did Pop miss his 2 best players for over 40% of a season?

You cringe when I say say Vogel is a great coach. Even if you disagree, is it truly cringeworthy? It's almost as if I said Luke Walton or Scott Brooks are great coaches. Where would you rank him, bottom half of the league? Vogel has consistently proven he's a very good coach on defense. The question then is whether his abilities or lack thereof on offense are so awful that it becomes cringeworthy when someone describes him as great.

[Ball so hard]

Another coaching trait, injury management.
Phil Jackson was a miracle worker when it came to managing Bynum injury prone a**. Did enough with the minutes to keep him afloat. And Bynum gave us critical time during 2 finals runs.
Contrast that with Dantoni, dude just ran Kobe into the ground with heavy minutes.
Vogel must develop that skill. I AS COACH control your minutes, and I will protect you by playing you as I deem necessary.
Instead, vogel seems more Dantoni than Phil

This is nonsense. Phil was very good at managing players minutes. However, this is a far cry from saying he was miracle worker. Was AD mismanaged when he got hurt? Was Kawhi who takes every other night off mismanaged? People automatically equate increase minutes with increased injury risks. It's almost as if there's some arbitrary number where injury risks increase significantly.

[LAKESHOW]

Another coaching trait, injury management.
Phil Jackson was a miracle worker when it came to managing Bynum injury prone a**. Did enough with the minutes to keep him afloat. And Bynum gave us critical time during 2 finals runs.
Contrast that with Dantoni, dude just ran Kobe into the ground with heavy minutes.
Vogel must develop that skill. I AS COACH control your minutes, and I will protect you by playing you as I deem necessary.
Instead, vogel seems more Dantoni than Phil

This is nonsense. Phil was very good at managing players minutes. However, this is a far cry from saying he was miracle worker. Was AD mismanaged when he got hurt? Was Kawhi who takes every other night off mismanaged? People automatically equate increase minutes with increased injury risks. It's almost as if there's some arbitrary number where injury risks increase significantly.

Whats your take on Dantoni and Kobe minutes?

[Ball so hard]

Another coaching trait, injury management.
Phil Jackson was a miracle worker when it came to managing Bynum injury prone a**. Did enough with the minutes to keep him afloat. And Bynum gave us critical time during 2 finals runs.
Contrast that with Dantoni, dude just ran Kobe into the ground with heavy minutes.
Vogel must develop that skill. I AS COACH control your minutes, and I will protect you by playing you as I deem necessary.
Instead, vogel seems more Dantoni than Phil

This is nonsense. Phil was very good at managing players minutes. However, this is a far cry from saying he was miracle worker. Was AD mismanaged when he got hurt? Was Kawhi who takes every other night off mismanaged? People automatically equate increase minutes with increased injury risks. It's almost as if there's some arbitrary number where injury risks increase significantly.

Whats your take on Dantoni and Kobe minutes?

39 minutes was definitely high for a 34 year old player. Obviously you should monitor the minutes of older players. It certainly wasn't smart to have him play that many minutes. However, i'm not convinced D'antoni would've been successful at convincing Kobe to play, let's say 30 minutes.

[LAKESHOW]

Cool. Thats all I'm sayin. It does play a role. Maybe Major some believe, maybe not. But my point was that monitoring and restriction of minutes does have its place

[tamaraw08]

Fair enough. A good portion of this season was painful to watch. We went from being rated top 10 on offense last season to being rated one of the worse this season...my point was this was more a result of injuries and poor roster construction than it was poor coaching.

But this were I cringed and disagree with you.

Ball so hard wrote:
This season solidified Vogel's standing in my book as not a good but a great coach.

Great coaches find ways to make their teams look good by creating systems that maximize their abilities. Phil Jackson lead the Lakers to 8th best in ORTG with the freaking Smush Parker and Kwame playing major minutes, it can be argued that Luke Walton was their 3rd or 4th best player at that time, now that for me is “great coaching” instead of saying oh well Chris Mihm got injured ...or when MJ retired to play Baseball and Krause had to hire journeyman Pete Myers to take Jordans place.
Or Pops losing key vets to retirement etc. I frown when so called experts point to great chemistry as the key because great coaches never had chemistry issues, of course injuries derails their chances but usually they don’t collapse like jenga pieces when it happens.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Leading the Lakers that had a bunch of bums to the 8th best in ORTG while impressive, is not what made Phil great. Not to take anything away from Phil, but the 8th best ORTG also happened at time when Kobe was playing out of his mind... Kobe's lone MVP came during this season. It's a bit misleading to make it seems as if the team's success was heavily due to Phil's masterful coaching abilities, in spite of having a terrible roster (Smush and Kwame if you prefer). I vaguely remember the offense being mostly "get Kobe the ball and get out of his way." Arguably what Vogel just accomplished (1st in DRTG) is equally as, if not more impressive.

Chris Mihm getting injured?? Chris Mihm was a fringe player. Lebron and AD missed 38% and 50% percent of the season, respectively. MJ retired and top 50 player thrived in an increased role. There's no doubt that Popovich is a great coach... when exactly did Pop miss his 2 best players for over 40% of a season?

You cringe when I say say Vogel is a great coach. Even if you disagree, is it truly cringeworthy? It's almost as if I said Luke Walton or Scott Brooks are great coaches. Where would you rank him, bottom half of the league? Vogel has consistently proven he's a very good coach on defense. The question then is whether his abilities or lack thereof on offense are so awful that it becomes cringeworthy when someone describes him as great.

My bad dude, cringe was a strong word and I apologize for using it, but like I said before, I am not a fan of using the word great too loosely. For me there are decent guys, good coaches, very good tacticians then the VERY VERY FEW great ones who barely have any weaknesses if any. I consider Frank as a good coach and I firmly believe that it would be a huge mistake for the Lakers to replace him bec there are hardly good alternatives out there.
It is my opinion that he had a very rough time in Orlando where the team was actually better before under Skiles and esp right after he left the team with Clifford and Frank himself acknowledged his mistakes.
He came to the team when Lebron was extremely humbled from failing to even take his team to the playoffs and bec of this, James was devoted to do everything he can to win at all cost, including playing great defense. AD was also exhausted from losing, had the same dedication to defense and if you add defensive minded players like Danny Green, Bradley, KCP, Caruso, Howard etc, then you have assembled a great collection of disciplined bodies committed to practice hard, watch film and willing to be accountable to slide, hustle and dive to stop the other team from getting easy baskets. Pelinka recognized the team's weakness to shooting so hired Cook, Daniels, Dudley, all but Green failed to play adequate defense so they were benched, rightfully so.
It has been an enteresting discussion and I commend you for staying classy inspite of my poor choice of words.

[Ball so hard]

My bad dude, cringe was a strong word and I apologize for using it, but like I said before, I am not a fan of using the word great too loosely. For me there are decent guys, good coaches, very good tacticians then the VERY VERY FEW great ones who barely have any weaknesses if any. I consider Frank as a good coach and I firmly believe that it would be a huge mistake for the Lakers to replace him bec there are hardly good alternatives out there.
It is my opinion that he had a very rough time in Orlando where the team was actually better before under Skiles and esp right after he left the team with Clifford and Frank himself acknowledged his mistakes.
He came to the team when Lebron was extremely humbled from failing to even take his team to the playoffs and bec of this, James was devoted to do everything he can to win at all cost, including playing great defense. AD was also exhausted from losing, had the same dedication to defense and if you add defensive minded players like Danny Green, Bradley, KCP, Caruso, Howard etc, then you have assembled a great collection of disciplined bodies committed to practice hard, watch film and willing to be accountable to slide, hustle and dive to stop the other team from getting easy baskets. Pelinka recognized the team's weakness to shooting so hired Cook, Daniels, Dudley, all but Green failed to play adequate defense so they were benched, rightfully so.
It has been an enteresting discussion and I commend you for staying classy inspite of my poor choice of words.

Good people can differ.