Vogel says extension with us !

[tamaraw08]

That was a typo. I meant I do not expect a significant drop to somewhere in the middle or toward the bottom. In a nutshell I think our defense will be fine. Vogel's defensive schemes are what made our defense great and not any individual player. It's not like Utah losing Gobert and replacing him with Towns.

I hope you and some fans here are right, I just don't want to hear excuses if they do indeed drop and start allowing easy baskets. I don't want to hear "well, these players suck, blah blah and it's not Vogel's fault. I don't know what to think of Fizdale, I am fine with Frank but I am still hesitant to give him that full credit on why this team has been great on defense yet.

To whom do you give full credit? Again, stop making it seems as though we lost perennial all-defensive team players. You expect the defense to be awful. We get it. Just come out and own that position. Just about everyone agrees that in aggregate the outgoing players are better defensive players than the incoming. However, you're probably the only one who thinks the difference between the outgoing and incoming players on defense is so great that you expect team defense to tank.

I really don't understand why you are so irate about my own opinion on Vogel. I never said, you are wrong and I am right, I even said I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT about this
After 30 games or so, we should be able to gauge if they manage to stay good on defense and not implode Bec of frustration on failing to make stops.
If I remember correctly, you did an elaborate research that suggested that KCP is the best defender to guard PGs, I was also a doubter back then but I was so ECSTATIC that I was wrong esp with KCP delivering 2 playoffs ago.
The ultimate goal is to win it all so I would be so happy, even if they ranked 20th on defense, if they are unstoppable on offense and become champs.
Again I hope I am wrong and you are right about this.

[Ball so hard]

I hope you and some fans here are right, I just don't want to hear excuses if they do indeed drop and start allowing easy baskets. I don't want to hear "well, these players suck, blah blah and it's not Vogel's fault. I don't know what to think of Fizdale, I am fine with Frank but I am still hesitant to give him that full credit on why this team has been great on defense yet.

To whom do you give full credit? Again, stop making it seems as though we lost perennial all-defensive team players. You expect the defense to be awful. We get it. Just come out and own that position. Just about everyone agrees that in aggregate the outgoing players are better defensive players than the incoming. However, you're probably the only one who thinks the difference between the outgoing and incoming players on defense is so great that you expect team defense to tank.

I really don't understand why you are so irate about my own opinion on Vogel. I never said, you are wrong and I am right, I even said I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT about this
After 30 games or so, we should be able to gauge if they manage to stay good on defense and not implode Bec of frustration on failing to make stops.
If I remember correctly, you did an elaborate research that suggested that KCP is the best defender to guard PGs, I was also a doubter back then but I was so ECSTATIC that I was wrong esp with KCP delivering 2 playoffs ago.
The ultimate goal is to win it all so I would be so happy, even if they ranked 20th on defense, if they are unstoppable on offense and become champs.
Again I hope I am wrong and you are right about this.

Irate about your opinion... huh. This is such a bastardization of anything I ever said. It's kind of odd that you brought up an analysis that I'm pretty sure was done pre-bubble. What's that, like 2 seasons ago? What does this have to do with anything? That was before Schroder's time with us. Kuz was also a below average defender at that time, Caruso wasn't the player he became, etc.

Since I prefer clarity to agreement i'll restate our main point of contention. One of us thinks the defense will be slightly worse and the other thinks the defense will probably be garbage since the players we god rid of are largely to be credited with our stellar defense last season. In time we will know which is more accurate.

[tamaraw08]

To whom do you give full credit? Again, stop making it seems as though we lost perennial all-defensive team players. You expect the defense to be awful. We get it. Just come out and own that position. Just about everyone agrees that in aggregate the outgoing players are better defensive players than the incoming. However, you're probably the only one who thinks the difference between the outgoing and incoming players on defense is so great that you expect team defense to tank.

I really don't understand why you are so irate about my own opinion on Vogel. I never said, you are wrong and I am right, I even said I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT about this
After 30 games or so, we should be able to gauge if they manage to stay good on defense and not implode Bec of frustration on failing to make stops.
If I remember correctly, you did an elaborate research that suggested that KCP is the best defender to guard PGs, I was also a doubter back then but I was so ECSTATIC that I was wrong esp with KCP delivering 2 playoffs ago.
The ultimate goal is to win it all so I would be so happy, even if they ranked 20th on defense, if they are unstoppable on offense and become champs.
Again I hope I am wrong and you are right about this.

Irate about your opinion... huh. This is such a bastardization of anything I ever said. It's kind of odd that you brought up an analysis that I'm pretty sure was done pre-bubble. What's that, like 2 seasons ago? What does this have to do with anything? That was before Schroder's time with us. Kuz was also a below average defender at that time, Caruso wasn't the player he became, etc.

Since I prefer clarity to agreement i'll restate our main point of contention. One of us thinks the defense will be slightly worse and the other thinks the defense will probably be garbage since the players we god rid of are largely to be credited with our stellar defense last season. In time we will know which is more accurate.

I brought up the pre-bubble analysis to say I OWNED up to my doubt and I was glad that I was wrong about KCP.
Garbage? Are you stating that I said the Laker's defense would be garbage? Would you care to mention the specific message # on this thread that their defense would be garbage?
I NEVER SAID Vogel is a bad coach ! It is just my OPINION that having 4-5 fundamentally good defenders contributed to them being great on defense. Vogel would rely on them and have limited the minutes of guys who get targeted like Harrell, Marc Gasol, THT etc. I agree with pretty much what danfantastk32 said.

Personally, I think Vogel is fine. Not 'one of the best', but he does the job. I think he certainly hangs his hat on the defensive side, and because of that emphasis, the team is good at D. This team will prob be quite different. I think the defense will certainly lack. It will be a challenge for Vogel to get these guys to play good D, and if he manages to do that this year, then I will slide his name into the 'very good coach' list

This is my reply.

We are not that far off with our assessment with Vogel. I too think he is a fine coach, and YES, if this team manages to play good D, then will "slide into a very good coach level

If they manage to stay good, top 10, then I would ECSTATIC that I am wrong. Even if they still rank 15th AND they win it all, Screw that, I am wrong, you are right, so what is your problem exactly?

[LakersLegacy]

Vogel needs to work on his communication. He really alienated Gasol. And he really has some blind spots to
Improve upon

[Beethoven]

Dude's gotta lay off the panda express 3item plates this season hopefully. He turnin in some serious man boob not a good look for a man dam.

[tamaraw08]

Vogel needs to work on his communication. He really alienated Gasol. And he really has some blind spots to
Improve upon

I was thinking about this too. Marc was very irritated when Vogel started benching him in favor of Drummond. My bet was Lebron and Pelinka promised Andre starting minutes and a better role but Frank couldn't tell Gasol the agreement bec it would make Rob and James the bad guys but even during the playoffs when they badly needed to win, Vogel was so reluctant in using him so, I don't know, maybe the Spaniard is probably anxious on what might happen. Will he get saddled in the bench having no role, hench might as well retire? or he does have a legit role so he should stay? and Right now, the coach is not even sure yet.

[tamaraw08]

Schroder was good, KCP was average. I think you're seriously overvaluing what those guys brought to the table. You make it sound as though we lost a dominant defensive player and Vogel will be exposed. Schroder and Caruso were plus defenders. Kuz and KCP were average. Of the guys we brought in, only Baze has the potential to be a plus defender. I expect a slight drop in defense but I do expect a drop from top 5 to somewhere in the middle or bottom.

wait, you think I am seriously overvaluing those ex-Lakers and yet you expect a SLIGHT drop on defense from middle to BUTTOM?
They LEAD the entire league in DRTG last season so how much drop off are you expecting again, from 1st to 11th to ....20th something?

That was a typo. I meant I do not expect a significant drop to somewhere in the middle or toward the bottom. In a nutshell I think our defense will be fine. Vogel's defensive schemes are what made our defense great and not any individual player. It's not like Utah losing Gobert and replacing him with Towns.

So far it's not looking good, is it? 24th in DRTG, 30TH in pts allowed after facing bad teams like OKC, Spurs, Memphis without Brooks.
I am NOT saying Vogel is a bad coach, I am implying he heavily relied on his past players' ability to defend to make his principles work great. Rob was supposed to save that 15th spot for the buy out market but he realized how bad this team was on defense during the preseason so he relented and used it to get a player who abandoned them during the bubble.
The good news is there's still hope but every bad loss brings him closer to a scenario that I dread, Lebron gets frustrated and gets him fired so he can install his friend Fizdale as head coach. Lakers announced that they gave Vogel an extension..turned out it was just another year so he avoids the label as "Lame Duck Coach". Great confidence there shown by Jeannie and Rob eh?
Going back to hope. Lebron should be back soon. Frank would would/should use AR-15 Reeves, Bradley and Bazemore more. He would review the film and demand accountability on lapses on defense from everyone including Westbrook.
Please Frank, prove me wrong, I don't think Fizdale can do any better.

[Ball so hard]

wait, you think I am seriously overvaluing those ex-Lakers and yet you expect a SLIGHT drop on defense from middle to BUTTOM?
They LEAD the entire league in DRTG last season so how much drop off are you expecting again, from 1st to 11th to ....20th something?

That was a typo. I meant I do not expect a significant drop to somewhere in the middle or toward the bottom. In a nutshell I think our defense will be fine. Vogel's defensive schemes are what made our defense great and not any individual player. It's not like Utah losing Gobert and replacing him with Towns.

So far it's not looking good, is it? 24th in DRTG, 30TH in pts allowed after facing bad teams like OKC, Spurs, Memphis without Brooks.
I am NOT saying Vogel is a bad coach, I am implying he heavily relied on his past players' ability to defend to make his principles work great. Rob was supposed to save that 15th spot for the buy out market but he realized how bad this team was on defense during the preseason so he relented and used it to get a player who abandoned them during the bubble.
The good news is there's still hope but every bad loss brings him closer to a scenario that I dread, Lebron gets frustrated and gets him fired so he can install his friend Fizdale as head coach. Lakers announced that they gave Vogel an extension..turned out it was just another year so he avoids the label as "Lame Duck Coach". Great confidence there shown by Jeannie and Rob eh?
Going back to hope. Lebron should be back soon. Frank would would/should use AR-15 Reeves, Bradley and Bazemore more. He would review the film and demand accountability on lapses on defense from everyone including Westbrook.
Please Frank, prove me wrong, I don't think Fizdale can do any better.

No it isn’t looking good. However, I think it’s way too soon to soon for an ‘I told you so’ post. On the one hand you seem to discredit Vogel’s pass success as either luck or being fortunate to have ‘talented defenders.’ On the other you dismiss an entire body of work and use 7 games to prove you were right all along.

I stand by what I said previously. Caruso was an excellent defender. KCP and Kuz were solid. In theory losing these 3 players should not tank a defense. Would you say KCP + Kuz = Bazemore + Ariza? Caruso is hard to replace on defense. Again net loss of Caruso alone should not bring a top rated defense team to near the bottom where we currently are. I think I previously underscored how many awful defenders we signed. Our main point of disagreement is on whether or not those 3 players we lost should largely be credited with our success on defense.

[Kilroy]

I think what we're seeing here is a team without a system, which has relied on it's top players to define the system in the past, but now we have a 3rd player who forces a complete redefine... I'm not sure Vogel ever really did a whole lot as far as implementing a system... I think he let LeBron and AD define it... Now it's up to AD, LBJ and RW to figure it out, and it's going to take a while...
With the talent we have, no system on offense isn't nearly as big a deal as no Defensive system... Right now, guys have no idea how to play team D. There was a little of that going on in the first half of FV's first season too... So maybe they'll figure it out... But the biggest factor in us being an elite defensive team over the last few seasons, was AD's commitment to that and his effort in holding people accountable and leading by example... Since last season though, he seems content to take chunks of games easy and just show up on D for critical plays... Without him driving defensive excellence, we're not likely to be anywhere near as good as we were last season.

[LAKESHOW]

That's it! Right there! Vogel does not coach or teach offense whatsoever. He has totally left that to Lebron. He has totally left it for those guys to figure out. Problem is, he is not tuned into substitution patterns. We come out of time outs, and have turnovers. Every timeout play is the same pattern, everyone to the side. 1v1 on top.
Now this is the problem that I've said about chemistry. With a whole new crew, they have to re teach and re think everything all over again. Caruso for example was good, but he was excellent here, because he knows Brons tendencies, where to be and where to stand. Reaves right now is a turnover machine until he figures it all out. Weve got a long way to go

[stan francisco]

If AD is going to play full intensity playoffs style defense for 82 games at center, expect him on the IL come playoffs time.

Team defense is how to try to avoid AD injuries, I think. Defensive PG, regular season? (Not Rondo, not Westbrook). This is where Frank’s problems begin.

Frank knows that the regular season can be successful with defense and fast breaks, but until the defense (team defense) is locked in, it’ll be ugly.

I don’t know when Russ will start playing smart team defense, but I hope Rondo teaches him how to think and play defense. Without solid perimeter defense, AD will have to cover too much.

[tamaraw08]

That was a typo. I meant I do not expect a significant drop to somewhere in the middle or toward the bottom. In a nutshell I think our defense will be fine. Vogel's defensive schemes are what made our defense great and not any individual player. It's not like Utah losing Gobert and replacing him with Towns.

So far it's not looking good, is it? 24th in DRTG, 30TH in pts allowed after facing bad teams like OKC, Spurs, Memphis without Brooks.
I am NOT saying Vogel is a bad coach, I am implying he heavily relied on his past players' ability to defend to make his principles work great. Rob was supposed to save that 15th spot for the buy out market but he realized how bad this team was on defense during the preseason so he relented and used it to get a player who abandoned them during the bubble.
The good news is there's still hope but every bad loss brings him closer to a scenario that I dread, Lebron gets frustrated and gets him fired so he can install his friend Fizdale as head coach. Lakers announced that they gave Vogel an extension..turned out it was just another year so he avoids the label as "Lame Duck Coach". Great confidence there shown by Jeannie and Rob eh?
Going back to hope. Lebron should be back soon. Frank would would/should use AR-15 Reeves, Bradley and Bazemore more. He would review the film and demand accountability on lapses on defense from everyone including Westbrook.
Please Frank, prove me wrong, I don't think Fizdale can do any better.

No it isn’t looking good. However, I think it’s way too soon to soon for an ‘I told you so’ post. On the one hand you seem to discredit Vogel’s pass success as either luck or being fortunate to have ‘talented defenders.’ On the other you dismiss an entire body of work and use 7 games to prove you were right all along.

I stand by what I said previously. Caruso was an excellent defender. KCP and Kuz were solid. In theory losing these 3 players should not tank a defense. Would you say KCP + Kuz = Bazemore + Ariza? Caruso is hard to replace on defense. Again net loss of Caruso alone should not bring a top rated defense team to near the bottom where we currently are. I think I previously underscored how many awful defenders we signed. Our main point of disagreement is on whether or not those 3 players we lost should largely be credited with our success on defense.

I did say "so far" and mentioned the word "hope" TWICE. Let me again say Vogel is not a bad coach, I think he is good but not a few here have proclaimed him to be Very Good to Great class level bec of the team's past 2 defensive ratings.
I strongly believed that NOT ONLY this team greatly benefited from very good defenders to execute his fine schemes, but he also adamantly refused to use players who are bad defenders. Good shooters like Cook, Daniels, Waiters, MccLemore were benched.
Marc Gasol who would have been great to stretch the floor with his shooting and passing and wit was benched. Harrell whose been one of the best in EFG and PER, barely played. Both Gasol and Harrell were not good in switching and get exposed on defense.
To sum it up. Lakers were great defensively bec of
Vogel's good Schemes+VEry good Defenders to execute them+not playing bad defenders.
Not just bec Frank is a Great defensive coach who drew Great Schemes that magically turned this bad defensive team into a juggernaut.
I used to get upset with Scott for refusing to play Lin more and Luke for not maximizing Russell. Well Walton's bad Laker team all of a sudden turned from 30th worst into 12th best when D'Russ was replaced by Ball.
Thibs earned his reputation as a Defensive Genius in Boston and Chicago. He moves to Minnesotta and that team failed to defend.
I am not saying it's all on the players. Orleans had Ball, Jrue, Hart, Ingram and they were still terrible bec Gentry is overrated IMO.
So why can't I elevate Vogel yet as Great? Well I look at Philly with below averaged defenders like Seth Curry, they still great.
Utah with 34 yr old Joe Ingles with his slow feet and Clarkson with his poor defensive instincts, they still play great.
Great coaches can mask player's weaknesses to a point. Frank would simply bench these players and now Pelinka is challenging him by getting rid of KCP, Caruso and Kuz and hiring shooters instead.

[Lost Angel]

I’d say Vogel is not the right coach for this Lakers team,
and it’s crazy that he completely wasted talent like Montrez. The guy is averaging 20-10 and was by far the best player on the floor yesterday.

Vogel doesn’t know how to use players in the right rotations. He’s not a good offensive coach, and to top it off he keeps playing Bazemore too many minutes.

[tamaraw08]

That was a typo. I meant I do not expect a significant drop to somewhere in the middle or toward the bottom. In a nutshell I think our defense will be fine. Vogel's defensive schemes are what made our defense great and not any individual player. It's not like Utah losing Gobert and replacing him with Towns.

I hope you and some fans here are right, I just don't want to hear excuses if they do indeed drop and start allowing easy baskets. I don't want to hear "well, these players suck, blah blah and it's not Vogel's fault. I don't know what to think of Fizdale, I am fine with Frank but I am still hesitant to give him that full credit on why this team has been great on defense yet.

To whom do you give full credit? Again, stop making it seems as though we lost perennial all-defensive team players. You expect the defense to be awful. We get it. Just come out and own that position. Just about everyone agrees that in aggregate the outgoing players are better defensive players than the incoming. However, you're probably the only one who thinks the difference between the outgoing and incoming players on defense is so great that you expect team defense to tank.

What is happening right now is the main reason I refuse to give Vogel FULL CREDIT. He's barely playing bad defenders like Rondo, Ellington, Monk and is trying to play decent ones like Bradley, Bazemore and Reaves while relying so much on Davis and they are still struggling.

You might be the only one who still think Vogel needs to prove that coaching top defensive teams wasn't a fluke. Caruso is probably the only player we'll miss on defense. Ariza has not been a good defender in years.

Washington was 20th in defense last year, they lose Westbrook then gained Kuz, KCP and a player who was maligned to be a weak defender in Harrell, well this EARLY, they rank at 5th best. If this holds up, should we say bec it was solely their coach's schemes? really?

[tamaraw08]

I hope you and some fans here are right, I just don't want to hear excuses if they do indeed drop and start allowing easy baskets. I don't want to hear "well, these players suck, blah blah and it's not Vogel's fault. I don't know what to think of Fizdale, I am fine with Frank but I am still hesitant to give him that full credit on why this team has been great on defense yet.

To whom do you give full credit? Again, stop making it seems as though we lost perennial all-defensive team players. You expect the defense to be awful. We get it. Just come out and own that position. Just about everyone agrees that in aggregate the outgoing players are better defensive players than the incoming. However, you're probably the only one who thinks the difference between the outgoing and incoming players on defense is so great that you expect team defense to tank.

What is happening right now is the main reason I refuse to give Vogel FULL CREDIT. He's barely playing bad defenders like Rondo, Ellington, Monk and is trying to play decent ones like Bradley, Bazemore and Reaves while relying so much on Davis and they are still struggling.

You might be the only one who still think Vogel needs to prove that coaching top defensive teams wasn't a fluke. Caruso is probably the only player we'll miss on defense. Ariza has not been a good defender in years.

Washington was 20th in defense last year, they lose Westbrook then gained Kuz, KCP and a player who was maligned to be a weak defender in Harrell, well this EARLY, they rank at 5th best. If this holds up, should we say bec it was solely their coach's schemes? really?

let me just clariy, I am not saying Vogel is a bad defensive coach, he is good but relied heavily on good defenders and benched players who got targeted on defense.

[Ball so hard]

To whom do you give full credit? Again, stop making it seems as though we lost perennial all-defensive team players. You expect the defense to be awful. We get it. Just come out and own that position. Just about everyone agrees that in aggregate the outgoing players are better defensive players than the incoming. However, you're probably the only one who thinks the difference between the outgoing and incoming players on defense is so great that you expect team defense to tank.

What is happening right now is the main reason I refuse to give Vogel FULL CREDIT. He's barely playing bad defenders like Rondo, Ellington, Monk and is trying to play decent ones like Bradley, Bazemore and Reaves while relying so much on Davis and they are still struggling.

You might be the only one who still think Vogel needs to prove that coaching top defensive teams wasn't a fluke. Caruso is probably the only player we'll miss on defense. Ariza has not been a good defender in years.

Washington was 20th in defense last year, they lose Westbrook then gained Kuz, KCP and a player who was maligned to be a weak defender in Harrell, well this EARLY, they rank at 5th best. If this holds up, should we say bec it was solely their coach's schemes? really?

let me just clariy, I am not saying Vogel is a bad defensive coach, he is good but relied heavily on good defenders and benched players who got targeted on defense.

I mean, that’s kind of what every coach does. Play players that fit into their schemes or game plan. I take it your main point is that players are far more important to team success than coaches are. This is generally true.

[tamaraw08]

What is happening right now is the main reason I refuse to give Vogel FULL CREDIT. He's barely playing bad defenders like Rondo, Ellington, Monk and is trying to play decent ones like Bradley, Bazemore and Reaves while relying so much on Davis and they are still struggling.


Washington was 20th in defense last year, they lose Westbrook then gained Kuz, KCP and a player who was maligned to be a weak defender in Harrell, well this EARLY, they rank at 5th best. If this holds up, should we say bec it was solely their coach's schemes? really?

let me just clariy, I am not saying Vogel is a bad defensive coach, he is good but relied heavily on good defenders and benched players who got targeted on defense.

I mean, that’s kind of what every coach does. Play players that fit into their schemes or game plan. I take it your main point is that players are far more important to team success than coaches are. This is generally true.

It's a combination of both. There are bad coaches like Alvin Gentry who had Ball, Jrue Holiday, Ingram, Josh Hart and his team was pretty bad defensively, I get they would have been good under Vogel but also would have been very good under a coach like Spoelstra.
The Miami coach had questionable defenders like Nunn and Dragic last season and Eric managed to mask their weaknesses with good schemes.
Nick Nurse loses Lowry to Miami, Siakam to injury and plays his rookie Barnes for 34 minutes and they are playing very good defense now that is great coaching too, IMO.

[Ball so hard]

let me just clariy, I am not saying Vogel is a bad defensive coach, he is good but relied heavily on good defenders and benched players who got targeted on defense.

I mean, that’s kind of what every coach does. Play players that fit into their schemes or game plan. I take it your main point is that players are far more important to team success than coaches are. This is generally true.

It's a combination of both. There are bad coaches like Alvin Gentry who had Ball, Jrue Holiday, Ingram, Josh Hart and his team was pretty bad defensively, I get they would have been good under Vogel but also would have been very good under a coach like Spoelstra.
The Miami coach had questionable defenders like Nunn and Dragic last season and Eric managed to mask their weaknesses with good schemes.
Nick Nurse loses Lowry to Miami, Siakam to injury and plays his rookie Barnes for 34 minutes and they are playing very good defense now that is great coaching too, IMO.

Spoelstra is arguably the best coach in the league today. Nurse is also a very good coach so that’s hardly surprising. It’s interesting that you’re impressed with what Nurse is currently doing, yet dismissive of what Vogel accomplished last season with his two best players missing 2/3 of the season. Aren’t the situations similar? I guess you’d say we had very good defensive players like KCP, Kuz, and Caruso while Toronto does not. Your arguments aren’t consistent and they show a clear bias.

[tamaraw08]

I mean, that’s kind of what every coach does. Play players that fit into their schemes or game plan. I take it your main point is that players are far more important to team success than coaches are. This is generally true.

It's a combination of both. There are bad coaches like Alvin Gentry who had Ball, Jrue Holiday, Ingram, Josh Hart and his team was pretty bad defensively, I get they would have been good under Vogel but also would have been very good under a coach like Spoelstra.
The Miami coach had questionable defenders like Nunn and Dragic last season and Eric managed to mask their weaknesses with good schemes.
Nick Nurse loses Lowry to Miami, Siakam to injury and plays his rookie Barnes for 34 minutes and they are playing very good defense now that is great coaching too, IMO.

Spoelstra is arguably the best coach in the league today. Nurse is also a very good coach so that’s hardly surprising. It’s interesting that you’re impressed with what Nurse is currently doing, yet dismissive of what Vogel accomplished last season with his two best players missing 2/3 of the season. Aren’t the situations similar? I guess you’d say we had very good defensive players like KCP, Kuz, and Caruso while Toronto does not. Your arguments aren’t consistent and they show a clear bias.

You said it, The Wizards currently with the KCP and Kuz now at top 10 as compared to ranking 19th last season, now it is just them? probably not
but Raptors just lost a great defender in Lowry PLUS Siakam at currently at 10th best in DRTG, yes Lakers did great too last year even after losing AD and Lebron but Vogel still had very good defenders, compare to the Raptors playing a 20 year old rookie, Trent
and FVV, Anunoby, AChiuwa all have a negative on DBPM.
To be fair though, the Lakers are getting much better lately, I think having Bradley back, Bazemore and Reaves who works hard and is showing signs of good BBIQ helps a ton. AD too seems to be getting much better IMO.