Is Vanderbilt Overrated?

[DanishLakerFan]

This is the most pessimistic take I've read in a while.

Well this team has little to be optimistic about right now...sorry. 7th - 11th - 7th -8th place finishes in the West point to a middle of the road team treading water, and hanging on to an old star.

In what **** world isn't AD an elite defender.

In a world with Garnett, Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, Pippen, B-Wallace.

D'Lo an elite shooter.

Maybe you aughta go look up elite. I think the word doesn't mean what you think it means.

Whatever dude.
By your definition no one did anything significant this season.

[danfantastk32]

Whatever dude.
By your definition no one did anything significant this season.

Yeah....total waste of a season. Should have started the rebuild last year after the sweep (SHOULDA started it a few years back...but by the end of last year it was obvious).

Lebron hit 40,000 points. I'll give that that was cool. Other than that.....did you see anything "significant" outa the Lakers? Five whole games above .500.....8th in the west, 16th or 17th in the league. 1st round exit, to a team that went on to lose.....to a team that went on to lose.

Maybe I come from the old school....but when a team is floating around in circles...doing nothing but getting older, I'm not gonna be happy. I'm not gonna call sub-par players "elite". I'm not gonna tell myself 'well, we made the playoffs". Nah, screw that. This team is garbage, and getting worse. And the saddest part is, they prob could have got a good 6 first-round picks (and prob a few other goodies) had they played it right this (or last) offseason.

Kick the can down the road.....tell yourself Vando and DLo are "elite" at what they do. That's not optimism....it's something else entirely. My words may not be to popular, or happy, but this team is about to squander a chance to make a decent rebuild about as painless as can be asked for. Instead, they're gonna go into it with nothing. Cause yes....kick that can all you want....but the rebuild is coming, and it's coming pretty soon. If 8th in the West is something worth holding onto for you.....then I guess that's where you and I see differently.

[tamaraw08]

I think he’s underrated. I don’t think he’s talked about enough and I think he’s thrown into trade discussions too easily.

Before he got hurt against the Celtics, he was playing the best ball of his career and that was with his coach yanking him around for a month straight. Give him a legit 24-28 minutes a game and playing a lot of his minutes with LeBron, D-Lo and he’ll be more than fine.

I really, really like Vanderbilt as a player. So much so that I'd risk his future injuries to benefit from what he brings. He's Dennis Rodman and Aaron Gordon-esque.

The only problem is that Dennis Rodman played when you only needed two shooters on the floor and Aaron Gordon has made himself into a proper shooter.

Vanderbilt, before even factoring in his injuries, is a liability if he's not on the floor with four shooters, and Anthony Davis isn't a shooter. The traditional backup center they sign won't be a shooter either, so his fit is wonky at best.

OKC just gave up on their tall 6th overall pick who can pretty much do everything... except shoot.
Kyle Anderson was pretty good for the TWolves, smart facilitator who can dictate tempo, guard 2-3 positions etc and yet they let him walk for nothing because he can't shoot.
Denver is not suffering even if Gordon can't shoot because his 4 other teammates on the floor can space the floor well with Jokic able to facilitate. AD hates shooting 3's and is therefore inefficient in the perimeter.
If Redick can find a way to hide Vando's poor shooting on the floor then the Lakers may have found a genius of a coach.

[stan francisco]

Vando is not at all overrated. His one on one defense is indeed elite. Championship level defense is elite. He’s on a level of Artest, Ariza (champions).

Glassman, yes. If healthy in the playoffs he’s a total difference maker. Not a starter for 82 games due to durability. If we had him healthy against Denver 2022-2023, we could’ve beat them because he would make life hell for Murphy.

Hoping he stays healthy this season, improves his three ball.

Data points to the opposite. Think he's only a regular season innings eater because teams don't bother to game plan for single players as much then.

He gets exposed offensively in the playoffs which has resulted in his minutes decreasing with every game in every series he's played. Teams park a second big off him in the paint permanently, which takes out 70% of Bron/AD's scoring playmaking opportunities out of the post.

And defensively -

Memphis -
Ja against Vando - 55 fg% - 42 3fg%
Ja against everyone else - 42 fg% - 31 3fg%

GS/Denver -
He spent more time being switched on to Dray/Loon or Joker/Gordon than he did on Steph/Jamal


I think there's a huge disparity on Vando's vibes/energy/feel good and the actual player he is out there among Laker fans and management.

Matisse Thybulle, whose actually an alien in basketball shoes on the defensive side{What Lakers faithful think Vando is}, was caste aside by an organization that actually has winning ambitions, because of his offensive limitations. Offense is just far more important than defense in this league.

A few points:

What data points to what opposite of what exactly?

He got injured in the GS series, not exposed. You make an argument which is misinformed. He was limping against both GS and DEN.

At the size of a 3 or a 4 he guards 2-4 extremely well, sometimes even 1-4. So to cherry-pick the one stat line vs Ja Morant, the quickest and deadliest one on one PG in the league; is a misleading representation of the truth at best.

“Offense is far more important than defense in this league”, go on…

Ask the Dallas Mavericks. Defense wins championships. Always will. Ask Aaron Gordon and Derek White. Artest and Ariza. All them are two-way players, none of them a ‘buckets getter’.

Bring on Thybulle!

[Godfather13]

This is the most pessimistic take I've read in a while.

Well this team has little to be optimistic about right now...sorry. 7th - 11th - 7th -8th place finishes in the West point to a middle of the road team treading water, and hanging on to an old star.

In what **** world isn't AD an elite defender.

In a world with Garnett, Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, Pippen, B-Wallace.

D'Lo an elite shooter.

Maybe you aughta go look up elite. I think the word doesn't mean what you think it means.

Wind up merchant. |Mods|

[DanishLakerFan]

Whatever dude.
By your definition no one did anything significant this season.

Yeah....total waste of a season. Should have started the rebuild last year after the sweep (SHOULDA started it a few years back...but by the end of last year it was obvious).

Lebron hit 40,000 points. I'll give that that was cool. Other than that.....did you see anything "significant" outa the Lakers? Five whole games above .500.....8th in the west, 16th or 17th in the league. 1st round exit, to a team that went on to lose.....to a team that went on to lose.

Maybe I come from the old school....but when a team is floating around in circles...doing nothing but getting older, I'm not gonna be happy. I'm not gonna call sub-par players "elite". I'm not gonna tell myself 'well, we made the playoffs". Nah, screw that. This team is garbage, and getting worse. And the saddest part is, they prob could have got a good 6 first-round picks (and prob a few other goodies) had they played it right this (or last) offseason.

Kick the can down the road.....tell yourself Vando and DLo are "elite" at what they do. That's not optimism....it's something else entirely. My words may not be to popular, or happy, but this team is about to squander a chance to make a decent rebuild about as painless as can be asked for. Instead, they're gonna go into it with nothing. Cause yes....kick that can all you want....but the rebuild is coming, and it's coming pretty soon. If 8th in the West is something worth holding onto for you.....then I guess that's where you and I see differently.

In my opinion you are elite if you are in the 95th percentile in the nba at your skill.

The Lakers has done a piss poor job at putting the right guys around Lebron and AD, but they're still top 10 players and if you have two of those you are in position to win a title imo.

[Godfather13]

A few points:

What data points to what opposite of what exactly? Wdym? I gave the data.

He got injured in the GS series, not exposed. You make an argument which is misinformed. He was limping against both GS and DEN.

Everybody is carrying injuries and niggles by that time of the season. Either you're in or out. Those can't be used as a blanket excuse for poor performance. He has always been bad at being able to read & navigate screens before or after the injury, so this isn't an anomaly either, so the data for his time spent on PF/Cs, in comparison to the PGs he was assigned is quite pertinent to highlighting that weakness.

It's not something he's been able to work at and get better either, just like his shooting.

At the size of a 3 or a 4 he guards 2-4 extremely well, sometimes even 1-4.


First of all he's usually thrown at the best offensive player of the other team, as long as they're not a big, which happens to be 1-3s not 2-4s.

He doesn't guard(or does a terrible job at) 3/4s, that are even a little bit stronger/bulkier than him(Zion, Kawhi, JJJ, Siakam, Giannis, Lauri, AG, Miles, Randle, Bron, KAT) well because of his slight frame, cos it's just the way this game works - Bigger/stronger >> Smaller/weaker when going into the post.

And this shouldn't even be new information. He is a specialist perimeter POA defender / off ball passing lanes disrupter. He is not a primary rim or help defender.

So to cherry-pick the one stat line vs Ja Morant, the quickest and deadliest one on one PG in the league; is a misleading representation of the truth at best.

I think it's a fair stat, that's why I posted it. Why do you think it's misleading?

Genuinely curious, not trolling.

“Offense is far more important than defense in this league”, go on…

Lets run through the list of max contracts all defense & all NBA and see how many max guys are good defenders.

All Defense -

2023-24
First Team
• Bam Adebayo, Miami Heat
• Anthony Davis, Los Angeles Lakers
• Rudy Gobert, Minnesota Timberwolves
• Herb Jones, New Orleans Pelicans
• Victor Wembanyama, San Antonio Spurs
Second Team
• Alex Caruso, Chicago Bulls
• Jrue Holiday, Boston Celtics
• Jaden McDaniels, Minnesota Timberwolves
• Jalen Suggs, Orlando Magic
• Derrick White, Boston Celtics

2022-23
First Team
• Alex Caruso, Chicago Bulls
• Jrue Holiday, Milwaukee Bucks
• Jaren Jackson Jr., Memphis Grizzlies
• Brook Lopez, Milwaukee Bucks
• Evan Mobley, Cleveland Cavaliers
Second Team
• Bam Adebayo, Miami Heat
• O.G. Anunoby, Toronto Raptors
• Dillon Brooks, Memphis Grizzlies
• Draymond Green, Golden State Warriors
• Derrick White, Boston Celtics

Bam 2x, AD, Rudy - 4/20 top defenders make the max, and Rudy's not even a max contract, yet is agreeably considered to be a bit of an overpay.


All NBA
2023-24
Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee Bucks
Luka Doncic, Dallas Mavericks
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Oklahoma City Thunder
Nikola Jokic, Denver Nuggets
Jayson Tatum, Boston Celtics
Jalen Brunson, New York Knicks
Anthony Davis, Los Angeles Lakers
Kevin Durant, Phoenix Suns
Anthony Edwards, Minnesota Timberwolves
Kawhi Leonard, LA Clippers
Devin Booker, Phoenix Suns
Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors
Tyrese Haliburton, Indiana Pacers
LeBron James, Los Angeles Lakers
Domantas Sabonis, Sacramento Kings

All of those are max guys, other than Brunson(contract signed before he popped). Only Giannis, Tatum, AD, Ant are legit + defenders, while there are like 4-5 who are legit terrible at that end.

Is that a fair data point to argue that offense does seem more important than defense?


Ask the Dallas Mavericks. Defense wins championships. Always will. Ask Aaron Gordon and Derek White. Artest and Ariza. All them are two-way players, none of them a ‘buckets getter’.
No debate here.

GSW, the greatest dynasty ever, that will only ever be remembered for Steph & Klay's shooting, was a top 5 defense through their 5 year finals run, despite Steph, because they had elite guys like Dray, Klay & Iggy and other role players who could carry their own water at least.

There's nuance to what I'm saying. Believe me the importance of the defensive elite is not wasted on me. I very much appreciate them. Just two filters -
1. They can't be a negative/liability on offense
2. They actually need to be elite on defense

I just don't think Vando passes through either of those filters. He's just a net negative player when push comes to shove in the playoffs.

AD is a 25 ppg scorer. Draymond is an elite playmaker and screener for shooters. - Both are versatile enough to guard all 5 positions & are A+++ Winners

Rudy - somebody that's bound to go down as one of the greatest defenders of all time with 4x DPOYs, often becomes a drag on his teams in the post season, because of his offensive limitations & his inability to move his feet enough to switch onto the faster / shiftier perimeter players. And love him or hate him, he's anchored two #1 defenses during this time, so his prowess is undeniable at then.

I didn't say defense doesn't matter, I'm just saying offense just matters more in Adam Silver's NBA, because of the unfair advantages refs/new rules offer.

PS - Don't mention AG with real great defenders like Artest & Arisa. AG is superb utility player, who happens to have fit Denver like a glove with his cutting, rebounding & bodying up the bigger forwards like the list above. He isn't a great defender.

[Godfather13]

I think there's a huge disparity on Vando's vibes/energy/feel good and the actual player he is out there among Laker fans and management.

Matisse Thybulle, whose actually an alien in basketball shoes on the defensive side{What Lakers faithful think Vando is}, was caste aside by an organization that actually has winning ambitions, because of his offensive limitations. Offense is just far more important than defense in this league.

That part.

Yeah....I love how he says I'm on drugs....and then repeats several of the points I made.

Offense being more important doesn't translate to there being an absence of any elite defenders in the league right now. Nice try tho..

[Godfather13]

Whatever dude.
By your definition no one did anything significant this season.

Yeah....total waste of a season. Should have started the rebuild last year after the sweep (SHOULDA started it a few years back...but by the end of last year it was obvious).

Lebron hit 40,000 points. I'll give that that was cool. Other than that.....did you see anything "significant" outa the Lakers? Five whole games above .500.....8th in the west, 16th or 17th in the league. 1st round exit, to a team that went on to lose.....to a team that went on to lose.

Maybe I come from the old school....but when a team is floating around in circles...doing nothing but getting older, I'm not gonna be happy. I'm not gonna call sub-par players "elite". I'm not gonna tell myself 'well, we made the playoffs". Nah, screw that. This team is garbage, and getting worse. And the saddest part is, they prob could have got a good 6 first-round picks (and prob a few other goodies) had they played it right this (or last) offseason.

Kick the can down the road.....tell yourself Vando and DLo are "elite" at what they do. That's not optimism....it's something else entirely. My words may not be to popular, or happy, but this team is about to squander a chance to make a decent rebuild about as painless as can be asked for. Instead, they're gonna go into it with nothing. Cause yes....kick that can all you want....but the rebuild is coming, and it's coming pretty soon. If 8th in the West is something worth holding onto for you.....then I guess that's where you and I see differently.

In my opinion you are elite if you are in the 95th percentile in the nba at your skill.

The Lakers has done a piss poor job at putting the right guys around Lebron and AD, but they're still top 10 players and if you have two of those you are in position to win a title imo.

Exactly. I usually read the rebuild talk and chuckle quietly. But here's my two cents on it -

Expecting Jeanie or one of the other incompetent Buss nincompoops to simply execute like Dr Buss did back in the day - build from the draft / rebuild with picks is absolutely asinine. These guys are idiots.

Lakers were the only team out of 30 to draft their own 2nd rounder in this draft. Also happen to be the only team to not have made a single Free Agent signing or a trade thus far in the window.

Your best shot is win out or at least be relevant in the playoffs as a top team and prove yourselves to not be the **** NY Knicks or Chicago Bulls, so the top players still respect you enough to consider taking meetings.

Absent Lebron choosing us in 2019 > inviting AD, this would now be the 12th year of being in basketball oblivion. Lamarcus Aldridge refused to take a meeting with us & we had the absolute worst record in the league over 2013-2019.

Why tf would someone think that these morons are capable of executing a rebuild, when they can't even be a contender with two all time top 75 players, who still are All NBA, and one of them is the best defender in the league.

The best part about this whole thing is the hypocrisy. The same folks that love Jeanie are calling for out the Lakers for wasting the 55th pick because they learnt the meaning of the word - Nepotism last month.

Imagine getting this emotional over the f*cking 55th pick.. lmaooo

[tamaraw08]

That part.

Yeah....I love how he says I'm on drugs....and then repeats several of the points I made.

Offense being more important doesn't translate to there being an absence of any elite defenders in the league right now. Nice try tho..

Currently, how many good defenders who can’t shoot 3’s are getting paid for more than 10 mil like Vando?

[stan francisco]

A few points:

What data points to what opposite of what exactly? Wdym? I gave the data.

He got injured in the GS series, not exposed. You make an argument which is misinformed. He was limping against both GS and DEN.

Everybody is carrying injuries and niggles by that time of the season. Either you're in or out. Those can't be used as a blanket excuse for poor performance. He has always been bad at being able to read & navigate screens before or after the injury, so this isn't an anomaly either, so the data for his time spent on PF/Cs, in comparison to the PGs he was assigned is quite pertinent to highlighting that weakness.

It's not something he's been able to work at and get better either, just like his shooting.

At the size of a 3 or a 4 he guards 2-4 extremely well, sometimes even 1-4.


First of all he's usually thrown at the best offensive player of the other team, as long as they're not a big, which happens to be 1-3s not 2-4s.

He doesn't guard(or does a terrible job at) 3/4s, that are even a little bit stronger/bulkier than him(Zion, Kawhi, JJJ, Siakam, Giannis, Lauri, AG, Miles, Randle, Bron, KAT) well because of his slight frame, cos it's just the way this game works - Bigger/stronger >> Smaller/weaker when going into the post.

And this shouldn't even be new information. He is a specialist perimeter POA defender / off ball passing lanes disrupter. He is not a primary rim or help defender.

So to cherry-pick the one stat line vs Ja Morant, the quickest and deadliest one on one PG in the league; is a misleading representation of the truth at best.

I think it's a fair stat, that's why I posted it. Why do you think it's misleading?

Genuinely curious, not trolling.

“Offense is far more important than defense in this league”, go on…

Lets run through the list of max contracts all defense & all NBA and see how many max guys are good defenders.

All Defense -

2023-24
First Team
• Bam Adebayo, Miami Heat
• Anthony Davis, Los Angeles Lakers
• Rudy Gobert, Minnesota Timberwolves
• Herb Jones, New Orleans Pelicans
• Victor Wembanyama, San Antonio Spurs
Second Team
• Alex Caruso, Chicago Bulls
• Jrue Holiday, Boston Celtics
• Jaden McDaniels, Minnesota Timberwolves
• Jalen Suggs, Orlando Magic
• Derrick White, Boston Celtics

2022-23
First Team
• Alex Caruso, Chicago Bulls
• Jrue Holiday, Milwaukee Bucks
• Jaren Jackson Jr., Memphis Grizzlies
• Brook Lopez, Milwaukee Bucks
• Evan Mobley, Cleveland Cavaliers
Second Team
• Bam Adebayo, Miami Heat
• O.G. Anunoby, Toronto Raptors
• Dillon Brooks, Memphis Grizzlies
• Draymond Green, Golden State Warriors
• Derrick White, Boston Celtics

Bam 2x, AD, Rudy - 4/20 top defenders make the max, and Rudy's not even a max contract, yet is agreeably considered to be a bit of an overpay.


All NBA
2023-24
Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee Bucks
Luka Doncic, Dallas Mavericks
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Oklahoma City Thunder
Nikola Jokic, Denver Nuggets
Jayson Tatum, Boston Celtics
Jalen Brunson, New York Knicks
Anthony Davis, Los Angeles Lakers
Kevin Durant, Phoenix Suns
Anthony Edwards, Minnesota Timberwolves
Kawhi Leonard, LA Clippers
Devin Booker, Phoenix Suns
Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors
Tyrese Haliburton, Indiana Pacers
LeBron James, Los Angeles Lakers
Domantas Sabonis, Sacramento Kings

All of those are max guys, other than Brunson(contract signed before he popped). Only Giannis, Tatum, AD, Ant are legit + defenders, while there are like 4-5 who are legit terrible at that end.

Is that a fair data point to argue that offense does seem more important than defense?


Ask the Dallas Mavericks. Defense wins championships. Always will. Ask Aaron Gordon and Derek White. Artest and Ariza. All them are two-way players, none of them a ‘buckets getter’.
No debate here.

GSW, the greatest dynasty ever, that will only ever be remembered for Steph & Klay's shooting, was a top 5 defense through their 5 year finals run, despite Steph, because they had elite guys like Dray, Klay & Iggy and other role players who could carry their own water at least.

There's nuance to what I'm saying. Believe me the importance of the defensive elite is not wasted on me. I very much appreciate them. Just two filters -
1. They can't be a negative/liability on offense
2. They actually need to be elite on defense

I just don't think Vando passes through either of those filters. He's just a net negative player when push comes to shove in the playoffs.

AD is a 25 ppg scorer. Draymond is an elite playmaker and screener for shooters. - Both are versatile enough to guard all 5 positions & are A+++ Winners

Rudy - somebody that's bound to go down as one of the greatest defenders of all time with 4x DPOYs, often becomes a drag on his teams in the post season, because of his offensive limitations & his inability to move his feet enough to switch onto the faster / shiftier perimeter players. And love him or hate him, he's anchored two #1 defenses during this time, so his prowess is undeniable at then.

I didn't say defense doesn't matter, I'm just saying offense just matters more in Adam Silver's NBA, because of the unfair advantages refs/new rules offer.

PS - Don't mention AG with real great defenders like Artest & Arisa. AG is superb utility player, who happens to have fit Denver like a glove with his cutting, rebounding & bodying up the bigger forwards like the list above. He isn't a great defender.

Ask LBJ if AG is a good defender. Do you watch defense at all? You know, the intangibles. He does all the intangibles and guards 1-5. Elite, as in NBA Champion, playing the role of a starting defensive swiss knife. If a championship doesn’t make you elite, where’s that nuance you claim to possess?

Read up on Vanderbilt’s injury, playoffs 2022-23. Surgery etc. It negates most of your red-pen text.

I’m the first one to say we need two-way players, not sure why you’re arguing that as if I said anything to the contrary.

GSW is the greatest NBA dynasty? See sig.

Not trolling the Lakers board, as a Bill Russell fan?

The fact that you compare JV to all defense NBA players like Gobert, AD, Draymond is yet another mislead attempt to dance into arguments not valid to the discussion at hand. I’m not even arguing that Vanderbilt should start on our team. He’s a one-way role player with elite defense — when not decimated by serious injuries.

He needs to add a corner three to his game and we have a gem at his price point. All the superstars you bring up, relevance?

Offense is what won the Celtics their 6th NBA championship?

Ask Luka and Kyrie. Ask Mike Malone why they won the year before. What about our 2020 championship, was that because of Vogel’s non-existent offense?

Cheers.

[danfantastk32]

In my opinion you are elite if you are in the 95th percentile in the nba at your skill.

If that's the way you wanna do it, it's a free country. You know that's not the definition though.

30 teams....let's say 12 men per roster, makes 360 players in the NBA. So your saying 18 of them are elite defenders? Again...free country and all that, but you know what your really doing is lessening the achievement of guys who actually were elite.

[Godfather13]

A few points:

What data points to what opposite of what exactly? Wdym? I gave the data.

He got injured in the GS series, not exposed. You make an argument which is misinformed. He was limping against both GS and DEN.

Everybody is carrying injuries and niggles by that time of the season. Either you're in or out. Those can't be used as a blanket excuse for poor performance. He has always been bad at being able to read & navigate screens before or after the injury, so this isn't an anomaly either, so the data for his time spent on PF/Cs, in comparison to the PGs he was assigned is quite pertinent to highlighting that weakness.

It's not something he's been able to work at and get better either, just like his shooting.

At the size of a 3 or a 4 he guards 2-4 extremely well, sometimes even 1-4.


First of all he's usually thrown at the best offensive player of the other team, as long as they're not a big, which happens to be 1-3s not 2-4s.

He doesn't guard(or does a terrible job at) 3/4s, that are even a little bit stronger/bulkier than him(Zion, Kawhi, JJJ, Siakam, Giannis, Lauri, AG, Miles, Randle, Bron, KAT) well because of his slight frame, cos it's just the way this game works - Bigger/stronger >> Smaller/weaker when going into the post.

And this shouldn't even be new information. He is a specialist perimeter POA defender / off ball passing lanes disrupter. He is not a primary rim or help defender.

So to cherry-pick the one stat line vs Ja Morant, the quickest and deadliest one on one PG in the league; is a misleading representation of the truth at best.

I think it's a fair stat, that's why I posted it. Why do you think it's misleading?

Genuinely curious, not trolling.

“Offense is far more important than defense in this league”, go on…

Lets run through the list of max contracts all defense & all NBA and see how many max guys are good defenders.

All Defense -

2023-24
First Team
• Bam Adebayo, Miami Heat
• Anthony Davis, Los Angeles Lakers
• Rudy Gobert, Minnesota Timberwolves
• Herb Jones, New Orleans Pelicans
• Victor Wembanyama, San Antonio Spurs
Second Team
• Alex Caruso, Chicago Bulls
• Jrue Holiday, Boston Celtics
• Jaden McDaniels, Minnesota Timberwolves
• Jalen Suggs, Orlando Magic
• Derrick White, Boston Celtics

2022-23
First Team
• Alex Caruso, Chicago Bulls
• Jrue Holiday, Milwaukee Bucks
• Jaren Jackson Jr., Memphis Grizzlies
• Brook Lopez, Milwaukee Bucks
• Evan Mobley, Cleveland Cavaliers
Second Team
• Bam Adebayo, Miami Heat
• O.G. Anunoby, Toronto Raptors
• Dillon Brooks, Memphis Grizzlies
• Draymond Green, Golden State Warriors
• Derrick White, Boston Celtics

Bam 2x, AD, Rudy - 4/20 top defenders make the max, and Rudy's not even a max contract, yet is agreeably considered to be a bit of an overpay.


All NBA
2023-24
Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee Bucks
Luka Doncic, Dallas Mavericks
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Oklahoma City Thunder
Nikola Jokic, Denver Nuggets
Jayson Tatum, Boston Celtics
Jalen Brunson, New York Knicks
Anthony Davis, Los Angeles Lakers
Kevin Durant, Phoenix Suns
Anthony Edwards, Minnesota Timberwolves
Kawhi Leonard, LA Clippers
Devin Booker, Phoenix Suns
Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors
Tyrese Haliburton, Indiana Pacers
LeBron James, Los Angeles Lakers
Domantas Sabonis, Sacramento Kings

All of those are max guys, other than Brunson(contract signed before he popped). Only Giannis, Tatum, AD, Ant are legit + defenders, while there are like 4-5 who are legit terrible at that end.

Is that a fair data point to argue that offense does seem more important than defense?


Ask the Dallas Mavericks. Defense wins championships. Always will. Ask Aaron Gordon and Derek White. Artest and Ariza. All them are two-way players, none of them a ‘buckets getter’.
No debate here.

GSW, the greatest dynasty ever, that will only ever be remembered for Steph & Klay's shooting, was a top 5 defense through their 5 year finals run, despite Steph, because they had elite guys like Dray, Klay & Iggy and other role players who could carry their own water at least.

There's nuance to what I'm saying. Believe me the importance of the defensive elite is not wasted on me. I very much appreciate them. Just two filters -
1. They can't be a negative/liability on offense
2. They actually need to be elite on defense

I just don't think Vando passes through either of those filters. He's just a net negative player when push comes to shove in the playoffs.

AD is a 25 ppg scorer. Draymond is an elite playmaker and screener for shooters. - Both are versatile enough to guard all 5 positions & are A+++ Winners

Rudy - somebody that's bound to go down as one of the greatest defenders of all time with 4x DPOYs, often becomes a drag on his teams in the post season, because of his offensive limitations & his inability to move his feet enough to switch onto the faster / shiftier perimeter players. And love him or hate him, he's anchored two #1 defenses during this time, so his prowess is undeniable at then.

I didn't say defense doesn't matter, I'm just saying offense just matters more in Adam Silver's NBA, because of the unfair advantages refs/new rules offer.

PS - Don't mention AG with real great defenders like Artest & Arisa. AG is superb utility player, who happens to have fit Denver like a glove with his cutting, rebounding & bodying up the bigger forwards like the list above. He isn't a great defender.

Ask LBJ if AG is a good defender. Do you watch defense at all? You know, the intangibles. He does all the intangibles and guards 1-5. Elite, as in NBA Champion, playing the role of a starting defensive swiss knife. If a championship doesn’t make you elite, where’s that nuance you claim to possess?

Read up on Vanderbilt’s injury, playoffs 2022-23. Surgery etc. It negates most of your red-pen text.

I’m the first one to say we need two-way players, not sure why you’re arguing that as if I said anything to the contrary.

GSW is the greatest NBA dynasty? See sig.

Not trolling the Lakers board, as a Bill Russell fan?

The fact that you compare JV to all defense NBA players like Gobert, AD, Draymond is yet another mislead attempt to dance into arguments not valid to the discussion at hand. I’m not even arguing that Vanderbilt should start on our team. He’s a one-way role player with elite defense — when not decimated by serious injuries.

He needs to add a corner three to his game and we have a gem at his price point. All the superstars you bring up, relevance?

Offense is what won the Celtics their 6th NBA championship?

Ask Luka and Kyrie. Ask Mike Malone why they won the year before. What about our 2020 championship, was that because of Vogel’s non-existent offense?

Cheers.

I think I used the wrong color to reply. Wasn't meant to be offensive or anything - just easier to reply like that to individual points than using quotes. Will use green or blue or a more disarming color next time.. Lol

Cheers bro.

[stan francisco]

Ask LBJ if AG is a good defender. Do you watch defense at all? You know, the intangibles. He does all the intangibles and guards 1-5. Elite, as in NBA Champion, playing the role of a starting defensive swiss knife. If a championship doesn’t make you elite, where’s that nuance you claim to possess?

Read up on Vanderbilt’s injury, playoffs 2022-23. Surgery etc. It negates most of your red-pen text.

I’m the first one to say we need two-way players, not sure why you’re arguing that as if I said anything to the contrary.

GSW is the greatest NBA dynasty? See sig.

Not trolling the Lakers board, as a Bill Russell fan?

The fact that you compare JV to all defense NBA players like Gobert, AD, Draymond is yet another mislead attempt to dance into arguments not valid to the discussion at hand. I’m not even arguing that Vanderbilt should start on our team. He’s a one-way role player with elite defense — when not decimated by serious injuries.

He needs to add a corner three to his game and we have a gem at his price point. All the superstars you bring up, relevance?

Offense is what won the Celtics their 6th NBA championship?

Ask Luka and Kyrie. Ask Mike Malone why they won the year before. What about our 2020 championship, was that because of Vogel’s non-existent offense?

Cheers.

I think I used the wrong color to reply. Wasn't meant to be offensive or anything - just easier to reply like that to individual points than using quotes. Will use green or blue or a more disarming color next time.. Lol

Cheers bro.

The green would be fitting.

[Michael Beasley]

it's 2024 there's no room for offensive liabilities on the court. i might even go so far as to say there's no room for any non 2-way players on the court

[danfantastk32]

it's 2024 there's no room for offensive liabilities on the court. i might even go so far as to say there's no room for any non 2-way players on the court

I agree with the first part 100%. Unless your REALLY something special on the defensive end, and you got enough firepower around you to make it work.....your just not worth it. Today's game is too offensive-skewed. A great defender is at best, only marginal when defending the great offensive guys. Look at AD. AD's a great defender......Joker didn't blink. Got his numbers, and then some. The Lakers went into the 2023 series 11th in defense, to Denvers 15th....but the Lakers were 20th offensively, to Denvers 5th. And got swept. Good defense is effort. You need a team giving effort, but this idea that defense wins championships just isn't true in the NBA. It helps....but with very rare exceptions (2004 Pistons, 2008 Celtics) offense is the real king.

As for the 2nd sentence....2-way players are nice. But I think alot of what people call 2-way players these days, are really just guys putting a bit of effort into their defense. There are few (if any) "lock down" guys right now. Stay in front of your guy...get a hand in his face....try and bring those percentages down a little. But let's be honest: AD, Lebron, Tatum, SGA, Ant Man, Jokic, Doncic, Irving....the list goes on.......all those guys were gettin their numbers all playoffs. Nobody was shuttin anyone down. If you have guys hustling on the defensive end...giving it just SOME legit effort, and your a top offensive team....your a contender.

So while I agree you need guys who put in the defensive work.....you don't need true 2-way guys. There just aren't that many of them. Your offense is gonna dictate how far you go these days.

[Godfather13]

I think I used the wrong color to reply. Wasn't meant to be offensive or anything - just easier to reply like that to individual points than using quotes. Will use green or blue or a more disarming color next time.. Lol

Cheers bro.

The green would be fitting. [/quote]

Noted with apologies, unless it's the HOTD reference I'm sensing there could be here.. lol

Much love brother

[stan francisco]

^

I’d like to add, though; Vanderbilt is a seriously good one on one defender. Could change the outcome of a series full of one-possession games. Elite defender. He’s one of the few who are so hard to find.

Hoping for a healthy Vando this year. I know. Difference maker off the bench when he’s not injured.

[Ball so hard]

Vando is easily the most overrated player on the team. I’ve heard some even mentioned him in the same conversation as Artest on defense. Go back and watch that series against Denver last year. Vando was pretty much unplayable. I agree with what another poster mentioned, he’s a specialist. He has a very limited skill set on defense.

[Anderson Hunt]

How can the Lakers sport a healthy lineup that has Davis and Vanderbilt on the floor at the same time for more than 5-10 minutes?

If they can't, then Vanderbilt's what you call "a bit player" and bit players are replaceable. In this case, Vanderbilt is replaceable for cheaper.

All that being said, if Vanderbilt becomes a threat from outside and can keep himself off the injury report, everything I stated here is moot.