ImageImageImageImageImage

The LeBron Thread (merged)

Moderators: TyCobb, Kilroy, Danny Darko

User avatar
milesfides
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,012
And1: 1,449
Joined: Nov 09, 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#341 » by milesfides » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:49 pm

Lebron’s “clutch” numbers that some are citing are simply low-resolution stats.

For example, is Davis Bertrans a better three-point shooter than Steph Curry? He's shooting 47.6% while Curry is shooting 44.4%. Case closed? Of course not. Bertrans is a floor-spacing big who takes open shots. Curry is a one-man wrecking ball that pulls defenses from the halfcourt line.

Likewise, there are many other factors in being "clutch" other than just a lack of time:

    Who is on the floor? Dwayne Wade/Kyrie Irving or Derek Fisher? Ray Allen or Metta?
    What offense are they running? Modern pace and space or a rhomboid version of the triangle?
    Who is the opponent? Weak east or brutal west? Raptors or the Spurs? An injured ragged Warriors or a historic Celtics juggernaut?
    What are defenses doing? Staying home on Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, or playing Hack-a-Shaq? Or making Lamar Odom beat you?
    What kind of shots were taken in the "clutch"? Was it a pull-up jumper or was it a backdoor cut for an open layup? Was it a well-run play or was it a box and one bail-out?

And saying that Shaq was better than any of Lebron’s teammates is irrelevant. You could also say that Kobe never had the balance that Lebron had. Kobe had to be Lebron-Kyrie combined, Lebron-Wade combined. The result of that responsibility is taking tougher shots. Shaq was great but he was a liability down the stretch because of free throws. If he was on the floor, forget about taking a shot in the paint - it was clogged. If Shaq were off the floor, Kobe was playing one on five, because that’s how poorly his teams were balanced. These factors are not accounted for in those “clutch” stats - low resolution.

Lebron’s championship teams were far better balanced than Kobe’s. Beyond Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, and Love, Lebron had a spectacular supporting cast. For example, look at the three-point shooters he had during '12-13: Ray Allen (42%), Shane Battier (43%), Mike Miller (42%), Chalmers (41%), Rashard Lewis (39%). Kobe’s shooters during the '09-'10? Farmar (37%), Metta (36%), and Fisher (35%). Think about how that affects the quality and difficulty of shots during crunch time.

This is why Lebron has never built a team up, instead he’s joined teams that have great balance, and an elite stretch big and an elite guard. Lebron has never handled the pressure of carrying a team through adversity, whether it’s a season, a series, a game, or a possession. He will leave, as he did Cleveland, twice.

The difference is that Kobe will go to war and just take on that responsibility 99% of the time. That's what all his peers recognize. Game recognizes game. In that gold medal game during the Olympics, who was clutch? Kobe. And Wade. What was Lebron doing? When SHTF, guys like Kobe and Jordan will be there. Lebron won't be. And he knows that too, which is why he will try to get those guys to do that for him. Dwayne Wade was the closer for the Heat, and Kyrie Irving - who can forget that biggest shot of the finals?

This is why all players and coaches overwhelmingly favor Kobe and knock Lebron on this. This isn't because of a conspiracy theory. It's because they have a more comprehensive knowledge of what it means to be "clutch." Because they have a high resolution view of basketball. You don’t. Those are facts.
“OH! Caruso parachutes in! You cannot stop him - you can only hope to contain him!” -Kevin Harlan, LAL-GSW 4/4/19
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#342 » by thebigbird » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:17 pm

milesfides wrote:Lebron’s “clutch” numbers that some are citing are simply low-resolution stats.

For example, is Davis Bertrans a better three-point shooter than Steph Curry? He's shooting 47.6% while Curry is shooting 44.4%. Case closed? Of course not. Bertrans is a floor-spacing big who takes open shots. Curry is a one-man wrecking ball that pulls defenses from the halfcourt line.

Likewise, there are many other factors in being "clutch" other than just a lack of time:

    Who is on the floor? Dwayne Wade/Kyrie Irving or Derek Fisher? Ray Allen or Metta?
    What offense are they running? Modern pace and space or a rhomboid version of the triangle?
    Who is the opponent? Weak east or brutal west? Raptors or the Spurs? An injured ragged Warriors or a historic Celtics juggernaut?
    What are defenses doing? Staying home on Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, or playing Hack-a-Shaq? Or making Lamar Odom beat you?
    What kind of shots were taken in the "clutch"? Was it a pull-up jumper or was it a backdoor cut for an open layup? Was it a well-run play or was it a box and one bail-out?

And saying that Shaq was better than any of Lebron’s teammates is irrelevant. You could also say that Kobe never had the balance that Lebron had. Kobe had to be Lebron-Kyrie combined, Lebron-Wade combined. The result of that responsibility is taking tougher shots. Shaq was great but he was a liability down the stretch because of free throws. If he was on the floor, forget about taking a shot in the paint - it was clogged. If Shaq were off the floor, Kobe was playing one on five, because that’s how poorly his teams were balanced. These factors are not accounted for in those “clutch” stats - low resolution.

Lebron’s championship teams were far better balanced than Kobe’s. Beyond Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, and Love, Lebron had a spectacular supporting cast. For example, look at the three-point shooters he had during '12-13: Ray Allen (42%), Shane Battier (43%), Mike Miller (42%), Chalmers (41%), Rashard Lewis (39%). Kobe’s shooters during the '09-'10? Farmar (37%), Metta (36%), and Fisher (35%). Think about how that affects the quality and difficulty of shots during crunch time.

This is why Lebron has never built a team up, instead he’s joined teams that have great balance, and an elite stretch big and an elite guard. Lebron has never handled the pressure of carrying a team through adversity, whether it’s a season, a series, a game, or a possession. He will leave, as he did Cleveland, twice.

The difference is that Kobe will go to war and just take on that responsibility 99% of the time. That's what all his peers recognize. Game recognizes game. In that gold medal game during the Olympics, who was clutch? Kobe. And Wade. What was Lebron doing? When SHTF, guys like Kobe and Jordan will be there. Lebron won't be. And he knows that too, which is why he will try to get those guys to do that for him. Dwayne Wade was the closer for the Heat, and Kyrie Irving - who can forget that biggest shot of the finals?

This is why all players and coaches overwhelmingly favor Kobe and knock Lebron on this. This isn't because of a conspiracy theory. It's because they have a more comprehensive knowledge of what it means to be "clutch." Because they have a high resolution view of basketball. You don’t. Those are facts.

This post is laughably absurd. You once again refuse to use statistics because none of the numbers support what you're trying to say. If you can't point to numbers to back up your claim it's a strong sign that what you're arguing is nonsense. 24 elimination games aren't "low resolution" stats. Kobe stans really need to get over the fact that LeBron is a superior player. The jealousy gets in the way of logic.
User avatar
Dr Aki
RealGM
Posts: 35,957
And1: 32,506
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#343 » by Dr Aki » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:47 pm

i don't understand that after 16 years of trying to hold lebron to the mj/kobe standard, we still can't let it go that lebron isn't a mj/kobe type player and more a magic type player
Image
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#344 » by thebigbird » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:12 pm

Dr Aki wrote:i don't understand that after 16 years of trying to hold lebron to the mj/kobe standard, we still can't let it go that lebron isn't a mj/kobe type player and more a magic type player

Because it isn't even close to being true. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Kobe. The only thing Kobe was better than LeBron at was shooting free throws. Kobe isn't an "MJ" player. He's arguably the most overrated player of all time. He was the Kroger brand Jordan. Kobe is a top 20 player of all time, not top 5.
Sedale Threatt
RealGM
Posts: 51,234
And1: 45,844
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
Location: Clearing space in the trophy case.

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#345 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:39 pm

thebigbird wrote:This post is laughably absurd. You once again refuse to use statistics because none of the numbers support what you're trying to say. If you can't point to numbers to back up your claim it's a strong sign that what you're arguing is nonsense. 24 elimination games aren't "low resolution" stats. Kobe stans really need to get over the fact that LeBron is a superior player. The jealousy gets in the way of logic.


It's very irritating.

Obviously nobody's taking the time to actually look at the games listed in the link you provided and digest them. So I'll post them myself, listing his performances when the Heat/Cavs were facing 3-1/3-0 deficits or outright elimination in the seasons that followed his disappearance in the 2011 Finals.

These are, without exception, monster, monster performances in the most important games of the season.

On what planet is Dwyane Wade clutch -- and make no mistake, he absolutely is -- but LeBron James, who is clearly shouldering the load on an epic level, not? It doesn't hold up to even the flimsiest bit of scrutiny.

* Indiana, 2012 semis (W): 40 points, 18 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks
* Boston, 2012 East finals (W): 45 points, 15 rebounds, 5 assists
Boston, 2012 East finals (W): 31 points, 12 rebounds
Indiana, 2013 East finals (W): 34 points, 8 rebounds, 2 steals
* Spurs, 2013 Finals (W): 33 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks
Spurs, 2013 Finals (W): 37 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals
* Spurs, 2014 Finals (L): 31 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 blocks
* Warriors, 2015 Finals (L): 32 points, 18 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals
Warriors, 2016 Finals (W): 32 points, 11 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 blocks
Warriors, 2016 Finals (L): 25 points, 13 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
* Warriors 2016 Finals (W): 41 points, 16 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks
Warriors, 2016 Finals (W): 41 points, 8 rebounds, 11 assists, 4 steals, 3 blocks
* Warriors, 2016 Finals (W): 27 points, 11 rebounds, 11 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks

A sidenote: These are LeBron's averages over the final three games of that Finals comeback against the Warriors --

36.3 points, 11.7 rebounds, 9.7 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks

Given the stakes, this is one of the best three-game stretches in NBA history. Look at that sh*t.

Warriors, 2017 Finals (W): 31 points, 10 rebounds, 11 assists
Warriors, 2017 Finals (L): 41 points, 13 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals
* Pacers, 2018 1st round (W): 32 points, 13 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks
* Pacers, 2018 1st round (W): 45 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 steals
Celtics, 2018 semis (W): 27 points, 5 rebounds, 12 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks
Celtics, 2018 semis (W): 46 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 blocks
* Celtics, 2018 semis (W): 35 points, 15 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals
Warriors, 2018 Finals (L): 33 points, 11 rebounds, 10 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks
Warriors, 2018 Finals (L): 23 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists

You have to get all the way to this most recent game before you get to anything remotely approaching sub-par. This is straight-up, indisputable dominance.

Focusing on last-second shots is extremely narrow, and almost certainly random to a certain degree. You obviously have to include it in the discussion -- which is fine in LeBron's case as this is yet another area in which he excels. But it shouldn't necessarily be the end all, be all.

But 40-plus minutes in a handful of must-win games spread over years, against top competition, with huge stakes? Much, much better -- especially when combined with the overall averages from those playoffs.

As I stated previously, LeBron has played the equivalent of three full seasons in the playoffs, and across the board, his production/efficiency either went up or maintained from the regular season. That's 200-something games, over nearly two decades. PER: Up. Win Shares/48: Up. BPM: Way up. And so on.

All of this speaks for itself, or should. This is not the production of a player who shrinks away from responsibility/pressure in any way, shape or form. This is a player who steps up, repeatedly.

Not to say he's been bullet-proof, by any means. But outside of maybe Jordan, find me a player who didn't stick his dick in the blender at least a couple of times in the playoffs.

Otherwise, there is simply no way to credibly discount any of this.
User avatar
myersia
Analyst
Posts: 3,452
And1: 788
Joined: Feb 08, 2011
     

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#346 » by myersia » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:43 pm

thebigbird wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:i don't understand that after 16 years of trying to hold lebron to the mj/kobe standard, we still can't let it go that lebron isn't a mj/kobe type player and more a magic type player

Because it isn't even close to being true. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Kobe. The only thing Kobe was better than LeBron at was shooting free throws. Kobe isn't an "MJ" player. He's arguably the most overrated player of all time. He was the Kroger brand Jordan. Kobe is a top 20 player of all time, not top 5.


Yeah idk why the hate for Kobe. But I don’t think anyone ever considers Lebron a scorer or better than Kobe as a scorer. Maybe more efficient but Kobe is going to score Lebron is going to pass. Kobe also was option 2. Had he been drafted in the 80s to the bulls I’m not sure Kobe wouldn’t be closer to MJ. His path was very different than Michaels.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#347 » by thebigbird » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:47 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
thebigbird wrote:This post is laughably absurd. You once again refuse to use statistics because none of the numbers support what you're trying to say. If you can't point to numbers to back up your claim it's a strong sign that what you're arguing is nonsense. 24 elimination games aren't "low resolution" stats. Kobe stans really need to get over the fact that LeBron is a superior player. The jealousy gets in the way of logic.


It's very irritating.

Obviously nobody's taking the time to actually look at the games listed in the link you provided and digest them. So I'll post them myself, listing his performances when the Heat/Cavs were facing 3-1/3-0 deficits or outright elimination in the seasons that followed his disappearance in the 2011 Finals.

These are, without exception, monster, monster performances in the most important games of the season.

On what planet is Dwyane Wade clutch -- and make no mistake, he absolutely is -- but LeBron James, who is clearly shouldering the load on an epic level, not? It doesn't hold up to even the flimsiest bit of scrutiny.

* Indiana, 2012 semis (W): 40 points, 18 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks
* Boston, 2012 East finals (W): 45 points, 15 rebounds, 5 assists
Boston, 2012 East finals (W): 31 points, 12 rebounds
Indiana, 2013 East finals (W): 34 points, 8 rebounds, 2 steals
* Spurs, 2013 Finals (W): 33 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks
Spurs, 2013 Finals (W): 37 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals
* Spurs, 2014 Finals (L): 31 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 blocks
* Warriors, 2015 Finals (L): 32 points, 18 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals
Warriors, 2016 Finals (W): 32 points, 11 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 blocks
Warriors, 2016 Finals (L): 25 points, 13 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
* Warriors 2016 Finals (W): 41 points, 16 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks
Warriors, 2016 Finals (W): 41 points, 8 rebounds, 11 assists, 4 steals, 3 blocks
* Warriors, 2016 Finals (W): 27 points, 11 rebounds, 11 assists, 2 steals, 3 blocks

A sidenote: These are LeBron's averages over the final three games of that Finals comeback against the Warriors --

36.3 points, 11.7 rebounds, 9.7 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks

Given the stakes, this is one of the best three-game stretches in NBA history. Look at that sh*t.

Warriors, 2017 Finals (W): 31 points, 10 rebounds, 11 assists
Warriors, 2017 Finals (L): 41 points, 13 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals
* Pacers, 2018 1st round (W): 32 points, 13 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks
* Pacers, 2018 1st round (W): 45 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 steals
Celtics, 2018 semis (W): 27 points, 5 rebounds, 12 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks
Celtics, 2018 semis (W): 46 points, 11 rebounds, 9 assists, 3 blocks
* Celtics, 2018 semis (W): 35 points, 15 rebounds, 9 assists, 2 steals
Warriors, 2018 Finals (L): 33 points, 11 rebounds, 10 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks
Warriors, 2018 Finals (L): 23 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists

You have to get all the way to this most recent game before you get to anything remotely approaching sub-par. This is straight-up, indisputable dominance.

Focusing on last-second shots is extremely narrow, and almost certainly random to a certain degree. You obviously have to include it in the discussion -- which is fine in LeBron's case as this is yet another area in which he excels. But it shouldn't necessarily be the end all, be all.

But 40-plus minutes in a handful of must-win games spread over years, against top competition, with huge stakes? Much, much better -- especially when combined with the overall averages from those playoffs.

As I stated previously, LeBron has played the equivalent of three full seasons in the playoffs, and across the board, his production/efficiency either went up or maintained from the regular season. That's 200-something games, over nearly two decades. PER: Up. Win Shares/48: Up. BPM: Way up. And so on.

All of this speaks for itself, or should. This is not the production of a player who shrinks away from responsibility/pressure in any way, shape or form. This is a player who steps up, repeatedly.

Not to say he's been bullet-proof, by any means. But outside of maybe Jordan, find me a player who didn't stick his dick in the blender at least a couple of times in the playoffs.

Otherwise, there is simply no way to credibly discount any of this.

Incredible post! Thanks for looking all that up. If you just put those numbers up without attaching a name no one would say that's the work of a player who shies away from the big game pressure. It'd be ridiculous to have that takeaway. But since it's LeBron they do.
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#348 » by thebigbird » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:57 pm

myersia wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:i don't understand that after 16 years of trying to hold lebron to the mj/kobe standard, we still can't let it go that lebron isn't a mj/kobe type player and more a magic type player

Because it isn't even close to being true. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Kobe. The only thing Kobe was better than LeBron at was shooting free throws. Kobe isn't an "MJ" player. He's arguably the most overrated player of all time. He was the Kroger brand Jordan. Kobe is a top 20 player of all time, not top 5.


Yeah idk why the hate for Kobe. But I don’t think anyone ever considers Lebron a scorer or better than Kobe as a scorer. Maybe more efficient but Kobe is going to score Lebron is going to pass. Kobe also was option 2. Had he been drafted in the 80s to the bulls I’m not sure Kobe wouldn’t be closer to MJ. His path was very different than Michaels.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

It's a myth that LeBron isn't a scorer. He has the 5th highest regular season all-time scoring average. He has the 4th highest playoffs all-time scoring average. Just because he can also pass doesn't mean he's not a scorer. He has better averages on better percentages than Kobe. He has the most playoff points in NBA history. He has 5 finals 30 point triple doubles, every other player in NBA history has 4 combined. He has the most 30 point games in the playoffs in NBA history. He has the second most 40 point games in the playoffs in NBA history. If LeBron isn't a scorer them basically no one in NBA history is.
User avatar
milesfides
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,012
And1: 1,449
Joined: Nov 09, 2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#349 » by milesfides » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:23 am

Again, please hold the diarrhea of stats as you're changing the subject. Sure, we can have a separate discussion on who has had the better career or who is the better player (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 rings), but that's not the point here.

No, the relevant issue is what "clutch" entails. And a comprehensive, high-resolution evaluation is that Lebron doesn’t embrace the challenge of scoring under duress or adversity. That's not a minority opinion. That's a majority opinion based on a wide spectrum of facts.

He wants the table set for him so that in general, he takes good shots. That’s not a bad thing. High efficiency. But it requires the game to played at a high level everywhere, and his approach to the game is what drives him to seek superteams, rather than having the guts to put a flawed team on his back and go out gunning.

This is why he left the Cavs. This is why he left the Heat. This is why he left the Cavs, again. And this is why he will sell out the Lakers. Or leave. Again.

Kobe is the guy who will take a trash team on his back and score 81 points simply because he is built that way. Or, take Team USA on his back and go broke for Gold rather than settling for Bronze.
“OH! Caruso parachutes in! You cannot stop him - you can only hope to contain him!” -Kevin Harlan, LAL-GSW 4/4/19
Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,605
And1: 12,319
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#350 » by Kilroy » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:22 am

thebigbird wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:i don't understand that after 16 years of trying to hold lebron to the mj/kobe standard, we still can't let it go that lebron isn't a mj/kobe type player and more a magic type player

Because it isn't even close to being true. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Kobe. The only thing Kobe was better than LeBron at was shooting free throws. Kobe isn't an "MJ" player. He's arguably the most overrated player of all time. He was the Kroger brand Jordan. Kobe is a top 20 player of all time, not top 5.


You've clearly stumbled into the wrong forum...
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...
User avatar
Slink
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,302
And1: 993
Joined: Jul 04, 2017
   

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#351 » by Slink » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:28 am

Kilroy wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
Dr Aki wrote:i don't understand that after 16 years of trying to hold lebron to the mj/kobe standard, we still can't let it go that lebron isn't a mj/kobe type player and more a magic type player

Because it isn't even close to being true. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Kobe. The only thing Kobe was better than LeBron at was shooting free throws. Kobe isn't an "MJ" player. He's arguably the most overrated player of all time. He was the Kroger brand Jordan. Kobe is a top 20 player of all time, not top 5.


You've clearly stumbled into the wrong forum...


From this poster's past posts, he goes out of his way to trash Kobe and put James on a pedestal. And judging from the join date, I suspect a troll.
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#352 » by thebigbird » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:30 am

Slink wrote:
Kilroy wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Because it isn't even close to being true. LeBron is a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Kobe. The only thing Kobe was better than LeBron at was shooting free throws. Kobe isn't an "MJ" player. He's arguably the most overrated player of all time. He was the Kroger brand Jordan. Kobe is a top 20 player of all time, not top 5.


You've clearly stumbled into the wrong forum...


From this poster's past posts, he goes out of his way to trash Kobe and put James on a pedestal. And judging from the join date, I suspect a troll.

Posting statistics isn't trolling. Kobe is a top 15-20 player of all time but his most ardent supporters insist on putting him in the top 5 and need brought back to reality.
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#353 » by thebigbird » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:32 am

milesfides wrote:Again, please hold the diarrhea of stats as you're changing the subject. Sure, we can have a separate discussion on who has had the better career or who is the better player (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 rings), but that's not the point here.

No, the relevant issue is what "clutch" entails. And a comprehensive, high-resolution evaluation is that Lebron doesn’t embrace the challenge of scoring under duress or adversity. That's not a minority opinion. That's a majority opinion based on a wide spectrum of facts.

He wants the table set for him so that in general, he takes good shots. That’s not a bad thing. High efficiency. But it requires the game to played at a high level everywhere, and his approach to the game is what drives him to seek superteams, rather than having the guts to put a flawed team on his back and go out gunning.

This is why he left the Cavs. This is why he left the Heat. This is why he left the Cavs, again. And this is why he will sell out the Lakers. Or leave. Again.

Kobe is the guy who will take a trash team on his back and score 81 points simply because he is built that way. Or, take Team USA on his back and go broke for Gold rather than settling for Bronze.

How can you argue that LeBron doesn't "embrace the challenge of scoring under duress" when he averages more points in elimination games than anyone else in NBA history? That sounds exactly like embracing the challenge. You present no evidence to support your arguments. Just conclusory statements.
User avatar
dockingsched
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 56,680
And1: 23,996
Joined: Aug 02, 2005
     

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#354 » by dockingsched » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:40 am

thebigbird wrote:
Slink wrote:
Kilroy wrote:
You've clearly stumbled into the wrong forum...


From this poster's past posts, he goes out of his way to trash Kobe and put James on a pedestal. And judging from the join date, I suspect a troll.

Posting statistics isn't trolling. Kobe is a top 15-20 player of all time but his most ardent supporters insist on putting him in the top 5 and need brought back to reality.


It’s pretty transparent trolling when you make claims that only his most ardent supporters have him in the top 15.
"We must try not to sink beneath our anguish, Harry, but battle on." - Dumbledore
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#355 » by thebigbird » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:42 am

dockingsched wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
Slink wrote:
From this poster's past posts, he goes out of his way to trash Kobe and put James on a pedestal. And judging from the join date, I suspect a troll.

Posting statistics isn't trolling. Kobe is a top 15-20 player of all time but his most ardent supporters insist on putting him in the top 5 and need brought back to reality.


It’s pretty transparent trolling when you make claims that only his most ardent supporters have him in the top 15.

What? I said that he's top 15-20 and his biggest stans have him top 5. Seriously, people wouldn't hate on Kobe so much if his fans stopped overrating him. There's no shame in being one of the 15 best players in NBA history.
Kilroy
Forum Mod - Lakers
Forum Mod - Lakers
Posts: 21,605
And1: 12,319
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Location: The Motel 9 in Vegas
       

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#356 » by Kilroy » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:50 am

thebigbird wrote:
dockingsched wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Posting statistics isn't trolling. Kobe is a top 15-20 player of all time but his most ardent supporters insist on putting him in the top 5 and need brought back to reality.


It’s pretty transparent trolling when you make claims that only his most ardent supporters have him in the top 15.

What? I said that he's top 15-20 and his biggest stans have him top 5. Seriously, people wouldn't hate on Kobe so much if his fans stopped overrating him. There's no shame in being one of the 15 best players in NBA history.


Funny, that's exactly what people are saying about LeBron and his stans...

Out of curiosity... What'd you think about Jeremy Lin?
Never have rice at Hanzo's house...
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#357 » by thebigbird » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:52 am

Kilroy wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
dockingsched wrote:
It’s pretty transparent trolling when you make claims that only his most ardent supporters have him in the top 15.

What? I said that he's top 15-20 and his biggest stans have him top 5. Seriously, people wouldn't hate on Kobe so much if his fans stopped overrating him. There's no shame in being one of the 15 best players in NBA history.


Funny, that's exactly what people are saying about LeBron and his stans...

Out of curiosity... What'd you think about Jeremy Lin?

What? And it's not just LeBron stans who have him in the top 5. He's a consensus top 5 player. Even the haters who want to be edgy have him in the top 10 at the worst.
User avatar
dAdo dA dEvil
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,647
And1: 512
Joined: Jun 27, 2013
 

Re: LeGroin: Update "It's a Business, we're professionals" 

Post#358 » by dAdo dA dEvil » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:12 am

thebigbird wrote:
dAdo dA dEvil wrote:
thebigbird wrote:Oh wow, he scored 81 points in a meaningless regular season game. Wow! LeBron scored 41 in back to back games when facing elimination against the best team in NBA history. When the lights are brightest LeBron is at his best. You can't say the same thing about Kobe.


Uhmm... Kobe has 5 rings. Winning championships with a team that's probably less talented than LeBron's.

Three of those rings were with prime Shaq. LeBron never played with anyone even close to as good as prime Shaq.


Yes, Kobe played with Shaq but you could see that Kobe was still instrumental in those chips. Then 21 year old Kobe coming from an ankle injury led the Lakers in an overtime win against the Pacers in the 2000 NBA finals. This is while Shaq fouling out during the overtime period. Lebron even played with Wade and Bosh, Kyrie and Love. Kobe had Lamar and Pau? Stop fretting about Shaq. Kobe showed he can win without him and I doubt if Lamar and Pau are better than Shaq, Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love.
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 45,886
And1: 44,168
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#359 » by zimpy27 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:08 am

thebigbird wrote:
Slink wrote:
Kilroy wrote:
You've clearly stumbled into the wrong forum...


From this poster's past posts, he goes out of his way to trash Kobe and put James on a pedestal. And judging from the join date, I suspect a troll.

Posting statistics isn't trolling. Kobe is a top 15-20 player of all time but his most ardent supporters insist on putting him in the top 5 and need brought back to reality.


I am by no means a Kobe fan but you'd be hard pressed to find 5 people rank him lower than 13th all time.
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
thebigbird
General Manager
Posts: 7,585
And1: 20,501
Joined: Jul 11, 2018
 

Re: The LeBron Thread (merged) 

Post#360 » by thebigbird » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:22 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
Slink wrote:
From this poster's past posts, he goes out of his way to trash Kobe and put James on a pedestal. And judging from the join date, I suspect a troll.

Posting statistics isn't trolling. Kobe is a top 15-20 player of all time but his most ardent supporters insist on putting him in the top 5 and need brought back to reality.


I am by no means a Kobe fan but you'd be hard pressed to find 5 people rank him lower than 13th all time.

He was ranked 11th all-time by realgm. I'm sure there were a lot of people who had him lower than 13th in that voting.

Return to Los Angeles Lakers