Lakers vs Pistons, Game #24, 2/6, 7:00 PM PT

[Kilroy]

Well, thanks LeBron... Wish we could have helped you out a little bit more tonight... Damn.

[NoseBleedLakers]

Ugly doesn't even begin to describe this win.

23 turnovers is all I have to say.

This win doesn't get the Worthy Clap lol

[lazybatman]

Wow.. Fun Saturday night

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[bb22]

Good to get the win. And it’s a good learning opportunity for the team. Need to bring the intensity in practice to re-focus the team. Unacceptable to almost lose to Detroit twice in such a short period of time, even if they magically match up well with the Lakers.

[lazybatman]

Okay.. Final trade request - Mike D'Antoni for for all of Vogel's assistants and Cash or a legit PG for Schroeder. I mean, wtf were we doing out there?

There was a play with 3 mins left(Lakers lead by 6)when Schroeder let the ball roll up to the 3 pt line so we don't eat up the clock. Idk what he was thinking, but that's gotta be right up there with JR Smith dribbling the ball out with the Cavs needing to score with 3 seconds on the clock.

Sorry to say, but despite his terrific defense, Schroeder's a one trick pony on offense. It's a great trick, but it's not the invincible Kareem sky hook. He just can't be the primary ball handler in the clutch. He's a 6th man SG, NOT a starting PG in a contender.

Frank's been around long enough for us to know that he doesn't do offense, the same way D'Antoni doesn't do defense, so maybe it turns out to be a match made in heaven.

We shot 14 3s till the 1st overtime, 11 till the 4th qtr, which is disturbing in 2021. This bush league offense in the clutch simply can't fly if we're trying to win a chip.


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[Kilroy]

Okay.. Final trade request - Mike D'Antoni for for all of Vogel's assistants and Cash or a legit PG for Schroeder. I mean, wtf were we doing out there?

There was a play with 3 mins left(Lakers lead by 6)when Schroeder let the ball roll up to the 3 pt line so we don't eat up the clock. Idk what he was thinking, but that's gotta be right up there with JR Smith dribbling the ball out with the Cavs needing to score with 3 seconds on the clock.

Sorry to say, but despite his terrific defense, Schroeder's a one trick pony on offense. It's a great trick, but it's not the invincible Kareem sky hook. He just can't be the primary ball handler in the clutch. He's a 6th man SG, NOT a starting PG in a contender.

Frank's been around long enough for us to know that he doesn't do offense, the same way D'Antoni doesn't do defense, so maybe it turns out to be a match made in heaven.

We shot 14 3s till the 1st overtime, 11 till the 4th qtr, which is disturbing in 2021. This bush league offense in the clutch simply can't fly if we're trying to win a chip.


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Still think Schroders better as a 2 than a 1... Would love to see THT/Schroder/LeBron/AD/Marc, with Marc handling a good part of the facilitating duties... I agree, I'm about at the point where I dread Schroder initiating with the game on the line.
He doesn't suck for sure, but I like him better as a scorer.
THT is not fully ready for prime time as a starting PG, but his instincts, vision and intangibles are better than Schroder, and he's more of an offensive threat than Caruso. But I'd be cool starting Caruso too at the 1 alongside Schroder at SG.

[Spanish_Laker]

WTF was that? a 2OUT win vs the sorry ass Pistons without Griffin, Rose and Ellington? Why?

[BEazy]

I hope all these DNPs for Markieff and Wes means Robs trying to trade them for somebody that can contribute.

[Hans1984]

Wow what a game ! Got to give the Pistons some credit. They are a better team than their record shows.
That corner three from Lebron was just clutch. That's the difference between a normal basketball player and an all time great. Knocking down a shot like that in that situation.

[stan francisco]

Sorry to say, but despite his terrific defense, Schroeder's a one trick pony on offense. It's a great trick, but it's not the invincible Kareem sky hook. He just can't be the primary ball handler in the clutch. He's a 6th man SG, NOT a starting PG in a contender.

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This.

In the playoffs, Schröder bouncy-ball doesn’t work. He’ll be on the bench a lot.

I guess in a way, Schröder is a great way of saving other players knees during regular season.

[lazybatman]

Still think Schroders better as a 2 than a 1... Would love to see THT/Schroder/LeBron/AD/Marc, with Marc handling a good part of the facilitating duties... I agree, I'm about at the point where I dread Schroder initiating with the game on the line.
He doesn't suck for sure, but I like him better as a scorer.
THT is not fully ready for prime time as a starting PG, but his instincts, vision and intangibles are better than Schroder, and he's more of an offensive threat than Caruso. But I'd be cool starting Caruso too at the 1 alongside Schroder at SG.

What's most concerning is the 11 3 pt FGA in regulation time for me. Just the other night, KCP had just 2 shots all game. How does stuff like that happen when Bron's getting 10 assists? This stuff maybe nothing or something that can explode in our faces during the playoffs. Regardless of the gawdy FG percentages were recording, you ain't winning cr*p in this league if you don't make 3s.

THT is great at getting to the rim, but that's too much pressure for a 2nd year kid. Scoreboard says 3, but I thought he had a bunch more turnovers late in the 3rd. He had a terrific game otherwise, but these kinda things are the norm for a youngster like him. I'm not sure he's ready to step into those shoes yet. It may not be good for him or the team, if we force it upon him so fast.

I wouldn't mind Caruso or Gasol being the chief playmakers because of the their decision making, but Caruso's ball handling skills are very limited and Gasol can be unplayable in the clutch against small ball lineups. However, Gasol is sensational at creating plays from the shoulder also, which we haven't utilized yet.

So, I don't think we have a solid solution in this team. Besides I think we have so much to gain out of a real PG - P&R for Trez & AD + better ball movement to get everyone involved. I don't think Schroeder stinks either. He's worth every penny of that contract, but asking him to be a full-time PG on a Champion team is not the brightest idea.

BTW, shout out to Kuz, who has had a couple of brilliant games playing to his strengths, not trying to do too much. Hope he can continue this streak longer.

[tamaraw08]

Okay.. Final trade request - Mike D'Antoni for for all of Vogel's assistants and Cash or a legit PG for Schroeder. I mean, wtf were we doing out there?

There was a play with 3 mins left(Lakers lead by 6)when Schroeder let the ball roll up to the 3 pt line so we don't eat up the clock. Idk what he was thinking, but that's gotta be right up there with JR Smith dribbling the ball out with the Cavs needing to score with 3 seconds on the clock.

Sorry to say, but despite his terrific defense, Schroeder's a one trick pony on offense. It's a great trick, but it's not the invincible Kareem sky hook. He just can't be the primary ball handler in the clutch. He's a 6th man SG, NOT a starting PG in a contender.

Frank's been around long enough for us to know that he doesn't do offense, the same way D'Antoni doesn't do defense, so maybe it turns out to be a match made in heaven.

We shot 14 3s till the 1st overtime, 11 till the 4th qtr, which is disturbing in 2021. This bush league offense in the clutch simply can't fly if we're trying to win a chip.


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Schroder is not a traditional PG who facilitates the offense well like Rondo or Kidd, he is an attacking guard like Tony Parker who won rings because of sensible sets created by Pops. Phil won 11 rings without a traditional PG, Spoelstra with 4 Finals and 2 rings with Mario Chalmer carrying the ball then spotting up. Curry is more known for his shooting than facilitating....
but IMO it’s more about Vogel AND his 2 very expensive assistants not creating effective offensive schemes that generate efficient baskets. Shooting 3’s helps but I think setting solid screens and precised cutting will lead to layups and dunks.
The genius Darryl Morey asked his players to drive hard or get 3’s and avoid taking perimeter jumpers and AD is taking MORE than usual 17 footers than ever before..

[lazybatman]

Okay.. Final trade request - Mike D'Antoni for for all of Vogel's assistants and Cash or a legit PG for Schroeder. I mean, wtf were we doing out there?

There was a play with 3 mins left(Lakers lead by 6)when Schroeder let the ball roll up to the 3 pt line so we don't eat up the clock. Idk what he was thinking, but that's gotta be right up there with JR Smith dribbling the ball out with the Cavs needing to score with 3 seconds on the clock.

Sorry to say, but despite his terrific defense, Schroeder's a one trick pony on offense. It's a great trick, but it's not the invincible Kareem sky hook. He just can't be the primary ball handler in the clutch. He's a 6th man SG, NOT a starting PG in a contender.

Frank's been around long enough for us to know that he doesn't do offense, the same way D'Antoni doesn't do defense, so maybe it turns out to be a match made in heaven.

We shot 14 3s till the 1st overtime, 11 till the 4th qtr, which is disturbing in 2021. This bush league offense in the clutch simply can't fly if we're trying to win a chip.


Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Schroder is not a traditional PG who facilitates the offense well like Rondo or Kidd, he is an attacking guard like Tony Parker who won rings because of sensible sets created by Pops. Phil won 11 rings without a traditional PG, Spoelstra with 4 Finals and 2 rings with Mario Chalmer carrying the ball then spotting up. Curry is more known for his shooting than facilitating....
but IMO it’s more about Vogel AND his 2 very expensive assistants not creating effective offensive schemes that generate efficient baskets. Shooting 3’s helps but I think setting solid screens and precised cutting will lead to layups and dunks.
The genius Darryl Morey asked his players to drive hard or get 3’s and avoid taking perimeter jumpers and AD is taking MORE than usual 17 footers than ever before..

Well I said D'Antoni or a true PG. I'll settle for either.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[tamaraw08]

Okay.. Final trade request - Mike D'Antoni for for all of Vogel's assistants and Cash or a legit PG for Schroeder. I mean, wtf were we doing out there?

There was a play with 3 mins left(Lakers lead by 6)when Schroeder let the ball roll up to the 3 pt line so we don't eat up the clock. Idk what he was thinking, but that's gotta be right up there with JR Smith dribbling the ball out with the Cavs needing to score with 3 seconds on the clock.

Sorry to say, but despite his terrific defense, Schroeder's a one trick pony on offense. It's a great trick, but it's not the invincible Kareem sky hook. He just can't be the primary ball handler in the clutch. He's a 6th man SG, NOT a starting PG in a contender.

Frank's been around long enough for us to know that he doesn't do offense, the same way D'Antoni doesn't do defense, so maybe it turns out to be a match made in heaven.

We shot 14 3s till the 1st overtime, 11 till the 4th qtr, which is disturbing in 2021. This bush league offense in the clutch simply can't fly if we're trying to win a chip.


Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Schroder is not a traditional PG who facilitates the offense well like Rondo or Kidd, he is an attacking guard like Tony Parker who won rings because of sensible sets created by Pops. Phil won 11 rings without a traditional PG, Spoelstra with 4 Finals and 2 rings with Mario Chalmer carrying the ball then spotting up. Curry is more known for his shooting than facilitating....
but IMO it’s more about Vogel AND his 2 very expensive assistants not creating effective offensive schemes that generate efficient baskets. Shooting 3’s helps but I think setting solid screens and precised cutting will lead to layups and dunks.
The genius Darryl Morey asked his players to drive hard or get 3’s and avoid taking perimeter jumpers and AD is taking MORE than usual 17 footers than ever before..

Well I said D'Antoni or a true PG. I'll settle for either.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I am not sure a TRUE PG would solve a lot of the issues bec Lebron dominates the ball esp the 2nd half anyway, besides how many natural pass first PGs have actually went deep in the playoffs the past 20 years? Kidd, Lowry...and? IMO, the root of the problem is that Vogel and his staff have yet to figure out where and how to use Schroder properly AND the lack of efficient offensive schemes that could maximize their talent. Part of it is bec according to Kuzma, is that they hardly practice to conserve their energy. At some point, they will have to open their playbook and practice to execute those sets. Sure, they should save several those schemes for the playoffs but my goodness, Lebron has been doing too much iso ball, while AD camps from 20 feet

[lazybatman]

I am not sure a TRUE PG would solve a lot of the issues bec Lebron dominates the ball esp the 2nd half anyway, besides how many natural pass first PGs have actually went deep in the playoffs the past 20 years? Kidd, Lowry...and? IMO, the root of the problem is that Vogel and his staff have yet to figure out where and how to use Schroder properly AND the lack of efficient offensive schemes that could maximize their talent. Part of it is bec according to Kuzma, is that they hardly practice to conserve their energy. At some point, they will have to open their playbook and practice to execute those sets. Sure, they should save several those schemes for the playoffs but my goodness, Lebron has been doing too much iso ball, while AD camps from 20 feet

Your point about the pass first PGs is a bit of a blanket statement which doesn't prove anything. That's like saying CP3 is trash cos he didn't win a chip. Lebron 10X, Rondo 2X, Curry 5X, TP 4X, Nash 2X, Billups, Russ, Lowry are some great decision making primary ball handlers who've been deep in the playoffs over the last 15 years. Scoring or pass first isn't important. We need better decision making from anyone who's gonna have high usage.

Pop is only the greatest coach ever(IMPO), and those 2013-14 teams were probably his Monalisa. Vogel's won one chip, big thanks to Lebron, AD and a lot of guys not taking the Lakers job before him. And TP is a HOFer PG, several tiers above Dennis. Those comparisons kinda counter your point. If Dennis had been with Pop for even 2-3 years, sure, he could've been a way better player, but Vogel's not Pop(not even Brad Stevens), and Dennis is an SG. You're expecting McDonald's to serve Italian cuisine here mate.

And lastly, 36 yr old Lebron will throw the ball to KCP, Kuz, Caruso, Keiff, or whoever else will willingly catch it when he's tired. He's far removed from the two-way 46 mpg monster who didn't need help. I have to disagree with you after just having watched Rondo absolutely kill it in the playoffs.

[Kilroy]

I think the best PG type play I've seen from anyone this season other than LeBron, was this game when they ran the offense through Caruso and he passed around the perimeter... The ball came back to him and LeBron was open to his left, but he faked to LeBron and took the shot himself and drained a 3... That's the kind of next level thinking and confidence we need from our facilitator... Marc has had some stellar plays like that himself.
Schroder just always seem to do the linear safe thing... Which works most of the time, but just seems kind of predictable and pedestrian for a championship team.
THT is just a completely different look on offense and he seems to baffle defenses when he's locked in... I can see him as our PG of the future, but maybe not this season.

[tamaraw08]

I am not sure a TRUE PG would solve a lot of the issues bec Lebron dominates the ball esp the 2nd half anyway, besides how many natural pass first PGs have actually went deep in the playoffs the past 20 years? Kidd, Lowry...and? IMO, the root of the problem is that Vogel and his staff have yet to figure out where and how to use Schroder properly AND the lack of efficient offensive schemes that could maximize their talent. Part of it is bec according to Kuzma, is that they hardly practice to conserve their energy. At some point, they will have to open their playbook and practice to execute those sets. Sure, they should save several those schemes for the playoffs but my goodness, Lebron has been doing too much iso ball, while AD camps from 20 feet

Your point about the pass first PGs is a bit of a blanket statement which doesn't prove anything. That's like saying CP3 is trash cos he didn't win a chip. Lebron 10X, Rondo 2X, Curry 5X, TP 4X, Nash 2X, Billups, Russ, Lowry are some great decision making primary ball handlers who've been deep in the playoffs over the last 15 years. Scoring or pass first isn't important. We need better decision making from anyone who's gonna have high usage.

Pop is only the greatest coach ever(IMPO), and those 2013-14 teams were probably his Monalisa. Vogel's won one chip, big thanks to Lebron, AD and a lot of guys not taking the Lakers job before him. And TP is a HOFer PG, several tiers above Dennis. Those comparisons kinda counter your point. If Dennis had been with Pop for even 2-3 years, sure, he could've been a way better player, but Vogel's not Pop(not even Brad Stevens), and Dennis is an SG. You're expecting McDonald's to serve Italian cuisine here mate.

And lastly, 36 yr old Lebron will throw the ball to KCP, Kuz, Caruso, Keiff, or whoever else will willingly catch it when he's tired. He's far removed from the two-way 46 mpg monster who didn't need help. I have to disagree with you after just having watched Rondo absolutely kill it in the playoffs.

I never said CP3 is trash bec he hasn't won any chip, it's my opinion that a team may not need a great natural PG to win it all, but YES, you will NEED a VERY GOOD COACH to pull it off bec it requires an efficient system to execute and score.
Phil never fully understood the triangle but he let his assistant Tex explain the intricacies just like Adelman let Pete Carril run the Princeton offense in Sacramento...and this is where I agree with you that Pelinka needs to investigate what his expensive assistants were doing. No way Nets, take them BOTH BACK, Both didn't do great there before....Rob demanded Luke Walton to improve on their scouting reports before and this is where it started the rift between them I suspect.
I also AGREE that Schroder is not a great decision maker, but it' not like he is committing turnovers every time. His turnovers/100 possessions is at his LOWEST in his 8 year career at 3.2. Lonzo is at 3.3 while Rondo career is at 4.6, 4.4 last year with the Lakers.
Rondo committed 4.2/100 possessions in the last playoffs and career 4.1 in the playoffs.
But again, they NEED better sets, I can't imagine Pelinka not being bothered by this, hopefully, Vogel and his staff are just saving most of them in the playoffs.

[lazybatman]

I never said CP3 is trash bec he hasn't won any chip, it's my opinion that a team may not need a great natural PG to win it all, but YES, you will NEED a VERY GOOD COACH to pull it off bec it requires an efficient system to execute and score.
Phil never fully understood the triangle but he let his assistant Tex explain the intricacies just like Adelman let Pete Carril run the Princeton offense in Sacramento...and this is where I agree with you that Pelinka needs to investigate what his expensive assistants were doing. No way Nets, take them BOTH BACK, Both didn't do great there before....Rob demanded Luke Walton to improve on their scouting reports before and this is where it started the rift between them I suspect.
I also AGREE that Schroder is not a great decision maker, but it' not like he is committing turnovers every time. His turnovers/100 possessions is at his LOWEST in his 8 year career at 3.2. Lonzo is at 3.3 while Rondo career is at 4.6, 4.4 last year with the Lakers.
Rondo committed 4.2/100 possessions in the last playoffs and career 4.1 in the playoffs.
But again, they NEED better sets, I can't imagine Pelinka not being bothered by this, hopefully, Vogel and his staff are just saving most of them in the playoffs.

Bro, I know you well enough to believe that you'd see the value of CP3. Just said that to disagree with your point about very few grwat PGs going deep into the playoffs.

I don't think D'Antoni is a realistic target for the Lakers. Was just gassing when I dropped his name. If he was, it would simply take buying him out of his Nets contract, and offering him more money to be here. CBA only applies to players as far as I know. Shouldn't be too hard if he & Lakers want it though. I don't think he'd let the Nets sign him on a strong contract given his stature.

The all time TOV leaders list is basically the cream of the NBA's elitest players, ever to play -
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/tov_career.html
Lebron is 2nd and will soon cross Malone for No 1. Making TOVs is a function of making plays for yourself and others. Assist : TOV ratio is a more appropriate stat to check the efficiency of a PG -

CP3 - 3.9
Rondo - 2.97
Schroeder - 1.93

Most of Schroeder's passes are simple perimeter handoffs or post up passes to Bron/AD/Trez, which have no business of getting turned over. Making plays for others is not his thing, ergo he is a square peg being forced into a round hole.

To top it off he's scoring lesser points at lesser efficiency(44% FG & 30.6% 3FG), which further cancels off his defensive value.

[tamaraw08]

I never said CP3 is trash bec he hasn't won any chip, it's my opinion that a team may not need a great natural PG to win it all, but YES, you will NEED a VERY GOOD COACH to pull it off bec it requires an efficient system to execute and score.
Phil never fully understood the triangle but he let his assistant Tex explain the intricacies just like Adelman let Pete Carril run the Princeton offense in Sacramento...and this is where I agree with you that Pelinka needs to investigate what his expensive assistants were doing. No way Nets, take them BOTH BACK, Both didn't do great there before....Rob demanded Luke Walton to improve on their scouting reports before and this is where it started the rift between them I suspect.
I also AGREE that Schroder is not a great decision maker, but it' not like he is committing turnovers every time. His turnovers/100 possessions is at his LOWEST in his 8 year career at 3.2. Lonzo is at 3.3 while Rondo career is at 4.6, 4.4 last year with the Lakers.
Rondo committed 4.2/100 possessions in the last playoffs and career 4.1 in the playoffs.
But again, they NEED better sets, I can't imagine Pelinka not being bothered by this, hopefully, Vogel and his staff are just saving most of them in the playoffs.

Bro, I know you well enough to believe that you'd see the value of CP3. Just said that to disagree with your point about very few grwat PGs going deep into the playoffs.

I don't think D'Antoni is a realistic target for the Lakers. Was just gassing when I dropped his name. If he was, it would simply take buying him out of his Nets contract, and offering him more money to be here. CBA only applies to players as far as I know. Shouldn't be too hard if he & Lakers want it though. I don't think he'd let the Nets sign him on a strong contract given his stature.

The all time TOV leaders list is basically the cream of the NBA's elitest players, ever to play -
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/tov_career.html
Lebron is 2nd and will soon cross Malone for No 1. Making TOVs is a function of making plays for yourself and others. Assist : TOV ratio is a more appropriate stat to check the efficiency of a PG -

CP3 - 3.9
Rondo - 2.97
Schroeder - 1.93

Most of Schroeder's passes are simple perimeter handoffs or post up passes to Bron/AD/Trez, which have no business of getting turned over. Making plays for others is not his thing, ergo he is a square peg being forced into a round hole.

To top it off he's scoring lesser points at lesser efficiency(44% FG & 30.6% 3FG), which further cancels off his defensive value.

After the first 3 games or so, I stated that it's foolish to compare him to Rondo bec they have very different strengths. Some "analysts" figured that bec they have the same built, that maybe he'll contribute the same way.
The same "analysts" kept bringing the fact that he shot 38.5% from 3 when he NEVER shot above 36% before that, also rolled my eyes when they mentioned Marc shot great last season too. Schroder is not a great passer and doesn't have great court vision but I just don't look at 3pt shooting and simple FG% but look at other stats which for me is a little more accurate.
His TS % is at 53.8% which was helped by his pretty good FT rate at 32.4% has helped him and this team even if he is currently horrendous at the 3pt line, just a point of comparison, Rondo's career TS% is 49%, But again, they have very different strengths.

[lazybatman]

After the first 3 games or so, I stated that it's foolish to compare him to Rondo bec they have very different strengths. Some "analysts" figured that bec they have the same built, that maybe he'll contribute the same way.
The same "analysts" kept bringing the fact that he shot 38.5% from 3 when he NEVER shot above 36% before that, also rolled my eyes when they mentioned Marc shot great last season too. Schroder is not a great passer and doesn't have great court vision but I just don't look at 3pt shooting and simple FG% but look at other stats which for me is a little more accurate.
His TS % is at 53.8% which was helped by his pretty good FT rate at 32.4% has helped him and this team even if he is currently horrendous at the 3pt line, just a point of comparison, Rondo's career TS% is 49%, But again, they have very different strengths.

So we finally agree? 53 / 49.. Whatever.. Neither are great man.