2017 Lakers Draft Pick Discussion

Post #641 » by **TyCobb** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 8:29 pm

You can't be high on Russell and not be high on Ingram. You have to exercise the same amount of patience with both players, not give Ingram a shorter leash. Ingram is impressive because he is a mismatch given his ball skills and size. Russell was a mismatch at PG, but now he is rather pedestrian at the two. He is a really good shooter though so he can absolutely become valuable in this league, especially since he won't be asked to play the two full-time--Ball and him will take turns like 70-30 split.

Post #642 » by **Slava** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 8:46 pm

Despite all his struggles Russell didn't put up a rookie season remotely as bad as Ingram's. Russell will shine because he is an effortless scorer, no matter where you put him and he really thrives when someone takes the playmaking load off him and lets him pick his spots for catch and attack opportunities. Ingram had a real struggle scoring the ball no matter how hard he asserted himself.

He might still become a very high level player focusing on defense, rebounding and some playmaking skill but I'd be surprised if he ever becomes a good scorer. That's just not his skill set.

Post #643 » by **TyCobb** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 8:56 pm

Slava wrote:Despite all his struggles Russell didn't put up a rookie season remotely as bad as Ingram's. Russell will shine because he is an effortless scorer, no matter where you put him and he really thrives when someone takes the playmaking load off him and lets him pick his spots for catch and attack opportunities. Ingram had a real struggle scoring the ball no matter how hard he asserted himself.

He might still become a very high level player focusing on defense, rebounding and some playmaking skill but I'd be surprised if he ever becomes a good scorer. That's just not his skill set.

He also was top among team in minutes played. That shows his IQ right there--even with his shortcomings (inexperience) he still didn't piss the coach off enough to get benched.

Post #644 » by **Slava** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 9:04 pm

TyCobb wrote:
Slava wrote:Despite all his struggles Russell didn't put up a rookie season remotely as bad as Ingram's. Russell will shine because he is an effortless scorer, no matter where you put him and he really thrives when someone takes the playmaking load off him and lets him pick his spots for catch and attack opportunities. Ingram had a real struggle scoring the ball no matter how hard he asserted himself.

He might still become a very high level player focusing on defense, rebounding and some playmaking skill but I'd be surprised if he ever becomes a good scorer. That's just not his skill set.

He also was top among team in minutes played. That shows his IQ right there--even with his shortcomings (inexperience) he still didn't piss the coach off enough to get benched.

I'm sure not benching him had to do with not destroying what little confidence he had left by then. D'Angelo on the other hand needed a kick up the ass and he responded with a 40 point game against the Cavs.

LoveTheNBA23 · Post #645 » by **LoveTheNBA23** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 9:12 pm

Fox's defense is vastly overrated. Coming in at 170lbs to the NBA, where PnR is included in the majority of NBA offenses, Fox will get killed on switches. He doesn't have the size, strength or length (short wingspan) to have any impact on an offensive player bigger than him. He will be IT after a switch to a non-guard.

De'Aaron Fox's defense:
Overall man defense: 61st %ile
vs Power 5 conference teams: 49th %ile
vs non-Power 5 conference teams: 86th %ile

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA_Draft/comments/6f5scn/is_foxs_defense_being_overrated/

Post #646 » by **dockingsched** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 9:22 pm

TyCobb wrote:You can't be high on Russell and not be high on Ingram. You have to exercise the same amount of patience with both players, not give Ingram a shorter leash. Ingram is impressive because he is a mismatch given his ball skills and size. Russell was a mismatch at PG, but now he is rather pedestrian at the two. He is a really good shooter though so he can absolutely become valuable in this league, especially since he won't be asked to play the two full-time--Ball and him will take turns like 70-30 split.

Russell is statistically on par with where all star guards where at during their 19-20 yr old season. Ingram on the other hand was statistically quite terrible. The hope he gave was more visually and with his physical tools, something Russell can't compete with.

Im high on both but it would be quite understandable for someone to be high on one and not the other cause the reasons to be high on them are quite different.

iamworthy · Post #647 » by **iamworthy** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 9:33 pm

If Ingram balls out this year I'm sure we will all be pulling out the advance stats for him as we do for Russell.

myersia · Post #648 » by **myersia** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 9:50 pm

I am sure Kobe's first year was statistically horrible. These advanced stats drive me insane sometimes. The talent is there with Ingram. The hard work is there. Most importantly the maturity is there for Ingram. That is the category that worries the most about Russell. But enough the with negativity around here. Let's get excited again that we could add a player or maybe two that will help us be dominant again down the line. It's time for us be happy again damnit!

yanuary · Post #649 » by **yanuary** » Mon Jun 5, 2017 10:06 pm

Im really high on DLO and im really high on Ingram - both are untouchable for me, and i can see them at least as 2nd and 3rd option in contender. Just give them time, Warriors shows that we should be patient.

Also im not really high on this class as a top tier. I can see phenomenal Fultz (have him, Towns and healthy Embiid, maybe Jokic on top tier 2014-2017 draft classes). But i wouldnt trade DLO or Ingram for #2 in this draft.
But i really like third tier (players around 8-14 picks) in this draft and overall depth (like middle second round and Hart, Bolden, F.Jackson for example).

Post #650 » by **TyCobb** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 12:56 am

dockingsched wrote:
TyCobb wrote:You can't be high on Russell and not be high on Ingram. You have to exercise the same amount of patience with both players, not give Ingram a shorter leash. Ingram is impressive because he is a mismatch given his ball skills and size. Russell was a mismatch at PG, but now he is rather pedestrian at the two. He is a really good shooter though so he can absolutely become valuable in this league, especially since he won't be asked to play the two full-time--Ball and him will take turns like 70-30 split.

Russell is statistically on par with where all star guards where at during their 19-20 yr old season. Ingram on the other hand was statistically quite terrible. The hope he gave was more visually and with his physical tools, something Russell can't compete with.

Im high on both but it would be quite understandable for someone to be high on one and not the other cause the reasons to be high on them are quite different.

Just like in baseball where not all innings are created equal (some can be 9 pitch innings, some can be stressful 25 pitch inning), in basketball not all minutes are created equal. Some players can have a 16% usage while others have a 26% usage.

I know Russell often gets his pers compared to these all-star guards, but how many had as large of a usage rate as him their 19-20 year old seasons?

Stats aren't the whole story, they can be very misleading without proper context. As each day passes, we get more and more detailed with the statistical information. Comparing pers without showing usage rate is one of those misleading portraits.

Always need to be half traditional scout/half analytics based.

Not trying to knock Russell but he seems to get blind support as much as he gets blind hate.

Leor_77 · Post #651 » by **Leor_77** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 2:11 am

Assuming we could have gotten a better pick for LW and sent him to a playoff team on the East Coast, and that we got a pick in the 18-22 range from an Indy, Toronto, Atlanta, etc., how significant is the difference in prospects from there to 28?

LakersSoul · Post #652 » by **LakersSoul** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 3:47 am

Slava wrote:Despite all his struggles Russell didn't put up a rookie season remotely as bad as Ingram's. Russell will shine because he is an effortless scorer, no matter where you put him and he really thrives when someone takes the playmaking load off him and lets him pick his spots for catch and attack opportunities. Ingram had a real struggle scoring the ball no matter how hard he asserted himself.

He might still become a very high level player focusing on defense, rebounding and some playmaking skill but I'd be surprised if he ever becomes a good scorer. That's just not his skill set.

Okay. I can see your point...

Personally, I think it unfair to judge Ingram based on his rookie number since Luke was asking BI to run the offense and put on heavier responsibilities compared to most rookies including Dlo where they have one area to work towards, mostly scoring or taking shot. On top of that, Dlo had Kobe, good or bad, who took a lot of the pressure off of his teammates. Dlo was able to become a supporting cast and gradually work on his NBA game where BI was front and center and was asked to not only become a focal point but defend and run the offense.

Based on this and how he responded after the ASG, I can see why BI is the foundation for the Lakers and the only guy that is "untouchable". BI's ceiling is so high especially with his length and basketball IQ.

Post #653 » by **TyCobb** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 3:51 am

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-76ers/larry-brown-whoever-saying-ben-simmons-pg-moron

Larry Brown on Ben Simmons being a Point Guard:

“He’s not a point guard,” Brown said Monday on 97.5 The Fanatic's Midday Show. “Everybody that’s saying that is ridiculous.

“I watched that kid at Montverde. He’s a point guard when he gets the ball in the half court. He’s a point guard if he gets the ball off the board because he’s such a willing passer and so good with the ball, but if he’s going to have to back it down and bring the ball up against little guys, it’s going to take away from what he’s capable of doing. Whoever is saying that is a moron.”

Larry Brown on Lonzo Ball:

The Lakers are reportedly souring on selecting Ball No. 2 overall in part because of his outspoken and prying father, LaVar. But Brown isn’t worried about the extra baggage.

“That surprises me. … The kid’s a great player and a great kid,” Brown said. “I think that would be a shame (if someone didn’t pick him because of LaVar). If you read all the comments from the UCLA people and the players and Coach (Steve) Alford — they all had great things to say about the kid, that his father wasn’t an issue at all. So I would hope that based on his talent he gets picked where he should.”

Post #654 » by **Danny Darko** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 4:53 am

I'm not worried about Lavar (ok maybe just a tiny bit with how he could affect other youngins with comments like he made after UCLA's season), but Jackson to me is the pick and has been my choice since the tournament finished.

1 & 2 traditionally will have one player be a whiff.
the last 15 1st and 2nd round picks: http://www.thesportster.com/basketball/the-last-15-first-and-second-overall-nba-draft-picks-who-is-better/

Also interestingly... the 3rd pick looks better than 2 to me historically: http://www.mynbadraft.com/nba-draft-picks/3rd-overall/30509/

I would be all in on Russell, Clarkson, and 28 for 3 if we can get it in addition to 2, as well. (I know it's a pipe dream)

I listened to the multiply reported rumor that the Lakers might not like Ball because of his lack of success vs athletic guards, but something tells me Magic Johnson is particularly biased against guards that are ultra speedy.

I'd much rather trust a lineup of Ball, Jackson, and Ingram than Ball, Russell, Ingram to have the attitude and defense to play winning basketball.

LakersSoul · Post #655 » by **LakersSoul** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 4:56 am

Leor_77 wrote:Assuming we could have gotten a better pick for LW and sent him to a playoff team on the East Coast, and that we got a pick in the 18-22 range from an Indy, Toronto, Atlanta, etc., how significant is the difference in prospects from there to 28?

The other trading prospect for Lou was with Washington at #22. That would have obviously been better but not a huge difference. The draft is deep so there will be a good number of talented players to pick late in the first round. Overall, depending on who you ask, most have it as tiers:

Top 1:
Fultz

Top 2:
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fox

Then...

Isaac/DSJ/Monk
Collins/Markkanen

I believe these 10 are the ones that are most talented and the highest potential to become a star. The next 20 to 25 players are are mixed bag. Particularly from #20 to #35, its really anyone's guess who will become a star or have any impact on NBA but there are a lot of talent there too.

For me, I really like DJ Wilson, Bradley, Bell, Bam, Ojeleye and Frank Jackson at #28. I would be happy with any one of these guys plus at #2 either Ball, Tatum or Jackson. I am also hoping the FO can buy a few second rounders from 76ers or Boston to pick up one of these guys should them fall that low.

Lastly, unless the FO is sold on Ball, I would love to see if we can trade down and add a few more players.

Post #656 » by **Danny Darko** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 5:10 am

And Slava I think you are crazy. Ingram passed the eye test all year on D and in the end was doing great things on O.
To me Ingram will be much better on O than Prince, while being not quite the elite defender (but good). That's a championship piece, especially considering he has a hard to find attitude.

Michael Lucky · Post #657 » by **Michael Lucky** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 6:17 am

Danny Darko wrote:And Slava I think you are crazy. Ingram passed the eye test all year on D and in the end was doing great things on O.
To me Ingram will be much better on O than Prince, while being not quite the elite defender (but good). That's a championship piece, especially considering he has a hard to find attitude.

I don't know his instincts on defense didn't look that great at times. I still remember his long stretch of games without a block or steal (which is really ridiculous considering his length and minutes played).

As far as pairing Jackson with Ingram and Ball? Where's the spacing going to come from? How do you not surround Ball with a player that can make a NBA three point shot (something Ingram needs to prove)? Who is going to play SG?

Post #658 » by **Slava** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 6:19 am

Danny Darko wrote:And Slava I think you are crazy. Ingram passed the eye test all year on D and in the end was doing great things on O.
To me Ingram will be much better on O than Prince, while being not quite the elite defender (but good). That's a championship piece, especially considering he has a hard to find attitude.

If he ends up being a longer Iguodola I'd be completely happy. That's not an untouchable superstar but a very good player I'd love to have.

Post #659 » by **Danny Darko** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 6:36 am

Michael Lucky wrote:
Danny Darko wrote:And Slava I think you are crazy. Ingram passed the eye test all year on D and in the end was doing great things on O.
To me Ingram will be much better on O than Prince, while being not quite the elite defender (but good). That's a championship piece, especially considering he has a hard to find attitude.

I don't know his instincts on defense didn't look that great at times. I still remember his long stretch of games without a block or steal (which is really ridiculous considering his length and minutes played).

As far as pairing Jackson with Ingram and Ball? Where's the spacing going to come from? How do you not surround Ball with a player that can make a NBA three point shot (something Ingram needs to prove)? Who is going to play SG?

Ball can space, Ingram trended towards being proficient at 3 post all star break, and Jackson has steadily improved. Where I agree with you is Randle either needing to miraculously start dropping it from outside, or to hope that George can play 4 consistently (or Ingram in 2 years).

Jackson is the 2 here, but I grant you he's not a gunner 2.

Post #660 » by **Danny Darko** » Tue Jun 6, 2017 6:39 am

Slava wrote:
Danny Darko wrote:And Slava I think you are crazy. Ingram passed the eye test all year on D and in the end was doing great things on O.
To me Ingram will be much better on O than Prince, while being not quite the elite defender (but good). That's a championship piece, especially considering he has a hard to find attitude.

If he ends up being a longer Iguodola I'd be completely happy. That's not an untouchable superstar but a very good player I'd love to have.

I think that's a floor and I think he'll still be a better Tayshaun Prince, with post, mid range, and a mean first step and elevate drive and D around Iggy level.

Who do the Lakers draft on June 22nd with the 2nd overall pick?