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LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison

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LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#1 » by Luffy » Thu May 13, 2010 8:15 pm

Back in 2008, the Celtics beat both LeBron's Cavaliers and Kobe's Lakers. This year, LeBron will fall again to the same enemy, while Kobe Maximus Bryant will have his vengeance. That's what separates true greatness.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/37122223/

Toying with the city of Cleveland's fragile psyche, calling the NBA's reigning MVP "LeGone" James would just be piling on, rubbing in salt. Besides, that would be predicated on LeBron first being somewhere.

For all the numbers, for all the surreal passes and forays above the rim, the most breathtaking young player in the game is still at base camp in the legacy game. LeBron is gazing longingly toward the top of the mountain, where Kobe Bryant is about to plant a flag.

After consecutive MVP awards, let's look at the resume that matters: Rings? Zilch. NBA Finals wins? In his lone appearance three years ago, bupkis; four and out to the San Antonio Spurs.

And to put a bow on what might soon become a seven-year career of unfulfilled championship promise, LeBron's Cavaliers, the best team in pro basketball this season, are one game from bowing out in the second round against essentially three old guys with knee braces who Rajon Rondo found at the Dorchester Y.

At 25, LeBron is in danger of becoming the NBA's Alex Ovechkin — heavenly regular season, hellish playoff finale.

We're all witnesses, all right — witnesses to Phil Knight's Great American Hyperbole Machine, where we sop up commercials as reality.

Witness to 3 for 14 in front of your home crowd.

Witness to passivity, flat-out in-game apathy, unbecoming a player of LeBron's Hall of Fame caliber.

"He didn't even play," said Tim Legler, an ESPN analyst and former NBA guard. "He wasn't engaged. I've never seen a star-caliber athlete that uninvolved in a big game. It's like a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning audibling out of a third-and-eight passing down and just handing the ball off. Or Reggie Jackson taking three called strikes and not swinging.

"At one point after he spotted up in the corner, I saw him holding onto his shorts and bending over. I could not believe what I was watching was a guy not into the game."

Legler could only come to one conclusion: Stress. LeBron felt the pressure of having to carry a franchise by himself, which Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen don't have to. If one of them has a bad game, the Celtics can still win. If LeBron lays an egg like Game 5, it's over.

Because Commissioner David Stern and his broadcast partners are very good at what they do, there is a tendency to make this NBA postseason simply about LeBron vs. Kobe, much the way it was once about Michael vs. Magic in 1990 — the young buck finally on the cusp of unseating the old champion.

But such a hoped-for showdown not only disrespects the Celtics, Magic and Suns, it completely short-changes Kobe.

He will be 32 in August. Since Tim Duncan (34) and Shaquille O'Neal (38) are not getting any younger, chances are Kobe is going to break the tie among the three most accomplished players of the post-Jordan generation (LeBron, Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony have been to only two NBA Finals between them) for championship rings.

It's "the Race for Five" or "One for the Thumb."

Because rings are used as measuring sticks for legacies (see Bill Russell's 11, Jordan's six and Magic Johnson and Larry Bird's eight combined), this is huge. Shaq told me so a year ago. "One more ring equals Magic and that would mean the world to me," O'Neal said. Since LeBron is the main reason the Daddy would get his fifth, and maybe Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili will have as much or more to do with the Spurs winning a fifth than Duncan if that ever happens, really this comes down to Kobe's legacy. He is still the top banana on his team.

Kobe won his first title at 21 years old, although Shaq was the best player on that Lakers team.

Yes, he learned to win at the game's highest level like LeBron is learning to win at the game's highest level, like Jordan once learned. But after that defining Game 5 in Detroit in 2007 that seemed to mark the beginning of the "LeBron as NBA Poster Child" era, he has yet to get back to the Finals. Unimportant individual numbers and awards aside, is the Kobe comparison fair anymore?

"You know who woke up the happiest guy in life when the sun came up today?" Legler asked. "Kobe. Because there was a general consensus that LeBron had surpassed Kobe as the best player in the game a year ago. Kobe Bryant wakes up today, watches LeBron get killed for a week after they go down to Boston — and I think they will — and Kobe is thinking, 'I told y'all, it's not that easy, is it?'"

See, the problem with being referred to as "King James" since high school is that at some point people actually expect you to climb atop the throne. Seize the scepter from Kobe, who eventually took it from Michael Jordan.

And nothing about LeBron's play in Game 5 bespoke of royalty on Tuesday night, not even close. If you don't win that game, you at least have to show up and not let a long-in-the-tooth team such as the Celtics blow your doors off at home.

If Thursday is indeed the last game for LeBron in a Cavaliers uniform, if free agency takes him to Manhattan or Brooklyn or beyond, the emotionally wounded sports fan in Cleveland who hasn't won a major championship since the Browns in 1964 — must be feeling like a lot of America's hoopers and 'ballers long awaiting Kobe vs. LeBron:

Let down. Betrayed. Sold a bill of goods by Nike and everyone else pushing LeBron to be the chosen one, it now appears, too soon.

"I don't want to throw a blanket on it, because it was just one game and I love LeBron for many reasons as a player," Legler said. "But this was such a defining game in his career. And his mind just seems very muddled, distracted, almost unengaged."

Unless LeBron has something left in his tank we didn't see in Game 5, it's time to face facts: He's not yet ready to be king.

And whether he leaves Cleveland or not, he should not have fussed so much earlier this season about whether to ditch the No. 23 because he believes Michael's old number is too hallowed.

Right now he should worry about not switching to the Nos. 8 or 24, because that would be very disrespectful to Kobe, almost as disrespectful as someone comparing the two players' legacies at this point in LeBron James's title-less career.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#2 » by USA » Thu May 13, 2010 8:23 pm

Coaches and teammates have more to do with a players 'greatness' than vengeance. Lebron is still the best player in the NBA. The overreaction to his last few games have been nothing short of shocking.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#3 » by phat_24 » Thu May 13, 2010 8:41 pm

Agreed. It feels like a character assassination is happening right now to LeBron. I fully expect him to bounce back like he did in game 3. He's too good of a player to not force this to game 7.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#4 » by Luffy » Thu May 13, 2010 8:45 pm

Lmao. It's not an overreaction when LeBron fails to make the Finals a second time after consecutive MVP awards and consecutive #1 overall playoff seeds. Something we'll see after tonight.

And I disagree that LeBron is the best player in the NBA. The best player in the NBA would not give up so easily in such a crucial game. Kobe Bryant in Game 6 against the Celtics in the 2008 playoffs went down firing shots until all the starters were benched because the Celtics had the game clinched.

The closest Kobe has come to "surrendering" in a game was the Lakers-Suns Game 7 incident in 2006, when Kobe only shut himself to prove a point to Phil Jackson that without him scoring so much, the Lakers would have no chance.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#5 » by fareweatherfan » Thu May 13, 2010 8:54 pm

USA wrote:Coaches and teammates have more to do with a players 'greatness' than vengeance. Lebron is still the best player in the NBA. The overreaction to his last few games have been nothing short of shocking.

phat_24 wrote:Agreed. It feels like a character assassination is happening right now to LeBron. I fully expect him to bounce back like he did in game 3. He's too good of a player to not force this to game 7.


I didn't read the article in the OP, but I'm giving my 2cents just on what these posters have said.

1) Lebron is NOT the best player in the NBA if he can't perform at the same high level WHEN IT MATTERS MOST. That, and that alone, is the true measure of greatness. E.g. if a player is the absolute, hands down, beyond anyone's contradiction, best player in PRACTICE, but doesn't play to the same level during the games, is he still the best basketball in the world?

2) Its not a character assassination. With great praise comes great responsibility. I'm not saying he can't or won't bounce back, but to do so in an elimination game is MUCH harder than in a game 3 where nothing was on the line. I have been as hard as anyone on Lebron and I maintain that we will all learn more about Lebron tonight than we have learned in the past 7 years.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#6 » by Optms » Thu May 13, 2010 9:01 pm

USA wrote:Coaches and teammates have more to do with a players 'greatness' than vengeance. Lebron is still the best player in the NBA. The overreaction to his last few games have been nothing short of shocking.


I disagree. Considering Cleveland is the consensus favorite to win it all, were the heavily favorite to beat Boston with supposedly the best player on the planet, no. The spot light is justifiable to the caliber of team everyone believes they are. To lose at home the way they've lost is simply inexcusable for any playoff team, let alone one of their magnitude.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#7 » by Edrees » Thu May 13, 2010 9:24 pm

I would wait til the boston cleveland series is over before making any bold claims though...
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#8 » by USA » Thu May 13, 2010 10:16 pm

Luffy wrote:And I disagree that LeBron is the best player in the NBA. The best player in the NBA would not give up so easily in such a crucial game. Kobe Bryant in Game 6 against the Celtics in the 2008 playoffs went down firing shots until all the starters were benched because the Celtics had the game clinched.

The closest Kobe has come to "surrendering" in a game was the Lakers-Suns Game 7 incident in 2006, when Kobe only shut himself to prove a point to Phil Jackson that without him scoring so much, the Lakers would have no chance.

Bold, how do you know Lebron wasn't proving the same point to Brown or Cavs management? Kobe giving up in game 7 , an elimination game, was worse than what Lebron did the other night. Less not forget that Kobe has 'giving up' before in a game.

fareweatherfan wrote:1) Lebron is NOT the best player in the NBA if he can't perform at the same high level WHEN IT MATTERS MOST. That, and that alone, is the true measure of greatness. E.g. if a player is the absolute, hands down, beyond anyone's contradiction, best player in PRACTICE, but doesn't play to the same level during the games, is he still the best basketball in the world?

Kobe has failed several times WHEN IT MATTER MOST. I guess Kobe doesn't have that true measure of greatness either. :roll:


Optms wrote:
USA wrote:Coaches and teammates have more to do with a players 'greatness' than vengeance. Lebron is still the best player in the NBA. The overreaction to his last few games have been nothing short of shocking.


I disagree. Considering Cleveland is the consensus favorite to win it all, were the heavily favorite to beat Boston with supposedly the best player on the planet, no. The spot light is justifiable to the caliber of team everyone believes they are. To lose at home the way they've lost is simply inexcusable for any playoff team, let alone one of their magnitude.

Hence Coach and players help define a players greatness.


People are ripping Lebron for this or that but his numbers in this series against the Celtics are better than a majority of Kobe's playoff series. That is how good this guy is. Lebron has plenty of time to win. He is in his 7th season. Jordan didn't win his first until his 7th season. Shaq didn't win his first until his 8th season. Until Lebron can get a decent coach and teammates, it is Kobe time.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#9 » by fareweatherfan » Thu May 13, 2010 10:53 pm

USA wrote:
Luffy wrote:And I disagree that LeBron is the best player in the NBA. The best player in the NBA would not give up so easily in such a crucial game. Kobe Bryant in Game 6 against the Celtics in the 2008 playoffs went down firing shots until all the starters were benched because the Celtics had the game clinched.

The closest Kobe has come to "surrendering" in a game was the Lakers-Suns Game 7 incident in 2006, when Kobe only shut himself to prove a point to Phil Jackson that without him scoring so much, the Lakers would have no chance.

Bold, how do you know Lebron wasn't proving the same point to Brown or Cavs management? Kobe giving up in game 7 , an elimination game, was worse than what Lebron did the other night. Less not forget that Kobe has 'giving up' before in a game.

fareweatherfan wrote:1) Lebron is NOT the best player in the NBA if he can't perform at the same high level WHEN IT MATTERS MOST. That, and that alone, is the true measure of greatness. E.g. if a player is the absolute, hands down, beyond anyone's contradiction, best player in PRACTICE, but doesn't play to the same level during the games, is he still the best basketball in the world?

Kobe has failed several times WHEN IT MATTER MOST. I guess Kobe doesn't have that true measure of greatness either. :roll:


Optms wrote:
USA wrote:Coaches and teammates have more to do with a players 'greatness' than vengeance. Lebron is still the best player in the NBA. The overreaction to his last few games have been nothing short of shocking.


I disagree. Considering Cleveland is the consensus favorite to win it all, were the heavily favorite to beat Boston with supposedly the best player on the planet, no. The spot light is justifiable to the caliber of team everyone believes they are. To lose at home the way they've lost is simply inexcusable for any playoff team, let alone one of their magnitude.

Hence Coach and players help define a players greatness.


People are ripping Lebron for this or that but his numbers in this series against the Celtics are better than a majority of Kobe's playoff series. That is how good this guy is. Lebron has plenty of time to win. He is in his 7th season. Jordan didn't win his first until his 7th season. Shaq didn't win his first until his 8th season. Until Lebron can get a decent coach and teammates, it is Kobe time.


GTFO...every one of your responses is bogus.

1) Kobe NEVER gave up, nor could he ever. He still busted his ass in game 7 against the Suns, he just didn't shoot. Not shooting proved a point, not playing (like Lebron last game) is very, very different.

2) All of the greats have failed, ALL OF THEM. What separates them from Lebron is they have also SUCCEEDED, repeatedly. Clearly, you see the distinction.

3) "Until Lebron can get a decent coach and teammates"???? Seriously, I never want to hear about his supporting cast again. It takes a GREAT supporting cast to finish 82 games with the best record, and the Cavs done it 2 years straight. Just gtfo with this argument.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#10 » by USA » Thu May 13, 2010 11:13 pm

fareweatherfan wrote:
GTFO...every one of your responses is bogus.

1) Kobe NEVER gave up, nor could he ever. He still busted his ass in game 7 against the Suns, he just didn't shoot. Not shooting proved a point, not playing (like Lebron last game) is very, very different.

2) All of the greats have failed, ALL OF THEM. What separates them from Lebron is they have also SUCCEEDED, repeatedly. Clearly, you see the distinction.

3) "Until Lebron can get a decent coach and teammates"???? Seriously, I never want to hear about his supporting cast again. It takes a GREAT supporting cast to finish 82 games with the best record, and the Cavs done it 2 years straight. Just gtfo with this argument.

LOL. I am a Lebron hater but the **** this guy is getting is ridiculous.

1. Kobe gave up in game 7 against the Suns. Only a Kobe homer would say otherwise. Kobe played with NO energy, intensity or determination in the second half. FACT. Go back and watch that game. Kobe DID NOT put the effort in we are used to seeing from Kobe in that second half. Just like Lebron last game.

2) All of the greats have failed, ALL OF THEM. What separates them from Lebron is they have also SUCCEEDED, repeatedly. Clearly, you see the distinction

Clearly you can see that Jordan didn't win until his 7th season, Shaq until his 8th. Lebron has time. Why should Lebron have to win sooner that others? As you said, all of the greats failed at one time, why is Lebron held to a different standard?

Lebron's supporting cast is good for the regular season, as proven by their record the last 2 seasons. I do think it is a disappointment that they had the best record without even making it to the finals. Lebron can only do so much when his teammates continually falter when the going gets tough. As a Laker fan, you should realize that after what we went through after Shaq got the boot.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#11 » by DubaLakers » Fri May 14, 2010 12:07 am

in Lebron's defense there's never been anyone coddled & hyped quite like Lebron since he hit a bball court for the first time. That certainly would throw everything out of whack.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#12 » by TylersLakers » Fri May 14, 2010 12:31 am

USA wrote:
Luffy wrote:And I disagree that LeBron is the best player in the NBA. The best player in the NBA would not give up so easily in such a crucial game. Kobe Bryant in Game 6 against the Celtics in the 2008 playoffs went down firing shots until all the starters were benched because the Celtics had the game clinched.

The closest Kobe has come to "surrendering" in a game was the Lakers-Suns Game 7 incident in 2006, when Kobe only shut himself to prove a point to Phil Jackson that without him scoring so much, the Lakers would have no chance.

Bold, how do you know Lebron wasn't proving the same point to Brown or Cavs management? Kobe giving up in game 7 , an elimination game, was worse than what Lebron did the other night. Less not forget that Kobe has 'giving up' before in a game.

fareweatherfan wrote:1) Lebron is NOT the best player in the NBA if he can't perform at the same high level WHEN IT MATTERS MOST. That, and that alone, is the true measure of greatness. E.g. if a player is the absolute, hands down, beyond anyone's contradiction, best player in PRACTICE, but doesn't play to the same level during the games, is he still the best basketball in the world?

Kobe has failed several times WHEN IT MATTER MOST. I guess Kobe doesn't have that true measure of greatness either. :roll:


Optms wrote:
USA wrote:Coaches and teammates have more to do with a players 'greatness' than vengeance. Lebron is still the best player in the NBA. The overreaction to his last few games have been nothing short of shocking.


I disagree. Considering Cleveland is the consensus favorite to win it all, were the heavily favorite to beat Boston with supposedly the best player on the planet, no. The spot light is justifiable to the caliber of team everyone believes they are. To lose at home the way they've lost is simply inexcusable for any playoff team, let alone one of their magnitude.

Hence Coach and players help define a players greatness.


People are ripping Lebron for this or that but his numbers in this series against the Celtics are better than a majority of Kobe's playoff series. That is how good this guy is. Lebron has plenty of time to win. He is in his 7th season. Jordan didn't win his first until his 7th season. Shaq didn't win his first until his 8th season. Until Lebron can get a decent coach and teammates, it is Kobe time.


I don't understand this whole "giving up" notion by Kobe in Game 7 of that Phoenix series. The Lakers were down by 15+ from the jump. There were down by 20 points at half, Kobe came out and put up a couple shots, the team couldn't get anything going, Phoenix extended the lead and the starters were on the bench soon after. If they were going to win that game, he needed other players to get going and that was the objective. The Suns were clearly a better team.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#13 » by laduane1 » Fri May 14, 2010 12:48 am

James won 60 plus games. That means they have home court thru out the playoffs. Lakers need the Celtic to win and then the celts to beat the Magic. Lakers need that home court.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#14 » by TruSkool » Fri May 14, 2010 1:35 am

im baffled
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#15 » by blix » Fri May 14, 2010 2:25 am

fareweatherfan wrote:
GTFO...every one of your responses is bogus.

1) Kobe NEVER gave up, nor could he ever. He still busted his ass in game 7 against the Suns, he just didn't shoot. Not shooting proved a point, not playing (like Lebron last game) is very, very different.

2) All of the greats have failed, ALL OF THEM. What separates them from Lebron is they have also SUCCEEDED, repeatedly. Clearly, you see the distinction.

3) "Until Lebron can get a decent coach and teammates"???? Seriously, I never want to hear about his supporting cast again. It takes a GREAT supporting cast to finish 82 games with the best record, and the Cavs done it 2 years straight. Just gtfo with this argument.


give. me. a. phucking. break. you don't 'prove a point' in the playoffs. you try and win. everyone with a brain and eyes sees that kobe quit in game 7 vs. phoenix. your selective memory should be embarrassing to you.

lebron is 25, i think most rational people see that there is still time to win rings.

having a good, solid supporting cast can get you the best record when you A) play in the east and B) have the best player in the league. in the playoffs you are exposed. exhibit A - ESPN, right now.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#16 » by fareweatherfan » Fri May 14, 2010 3:02 am

blix wrote:
fareweatherfan wrote:
GTFO...every one of your responses is bogus.

1) Kobe NEVER gave up, nor could he ever. He still busted his ass in game 7 against the Suns, he just didn't shoot. Not shooting proved a point, not playing (like Lebron last game) is very, very different.

2) All of the greats have failed, ALL OF THEM. What separates them from Lebron is they have also SUCCEEDED, repeatedly. Clearly, you see the distinction.

3) "Until Lebron can get a decent coach and teammates"???? Seriously, I never want to hear about his supporting cast again. It takes a GREAT supporting cast to finish 82 games with the best record, and the Cavs done it 2 years straight. Just gtfo with this argument.


give. me. a. phucking. break. you don't 'prove a point' in the playoffs. you try and win. everyone with a brain and eyes sees that kobe quit in game 7 vs. phoenix. your selective memory should be embarrassing to you.

lebron is 25, i think most rational people see that there is still time to win rings.

having a good, solid supporting cast can get you the best record when you A) play in the east and B) have the best player in the league. in the playoffs you are exposed. exhibit A - ESPN, right now.


Sure, buddy. I'll give. you. a. phucking. break. The Lakers were NEVER in the game against Phoenix, while the Cavs were LEADING at the end of the first quarter and only down by 6 at half. Meanwhile, Lebron was passive and disengaged the ENTIRE game.

You Lebron apologists drive. me. phucking. crazy. You try and have it every which way you choose. This conversation is about who is the best NOW. You say he's the best now but how many possible excuses can you use when he, yet again, fails to do what it takes in the post season???

When the Cavs lose to Orlando in the playoffs, despite having the best record in the NBA and HCA and the MVP, the excuse is that they had no answer for Rashard Lewis, the wing players for Orlando, or Dwight Howard. So they go out and get SHAQ, Jamario Moon, Parker, Jamison, keep big Z, etc., etc. etc.

Then, they get their ass handed to them by an old ass Boston team, again, despite having the best record in the NBA and HCA and the MVP, and the excuse now is Lebron has a busted elbow (see Kobe's BROKEN FINGER and man the f up), his supporting cast is no good (seriously wtf??, see above for all the ridiculous additions), he's not old enough just give him time (seriously gtfo, kobe had THREE by the age of TWENTY THREE, and by the age of 30-31 he has 4 going on 5).

Can Lebron win in the future, sure. But so. the. phuck. could. I. We're talking about what you've done and what you're doing. In the case of Lebron, the answer is ABSOLUTELY ZERO.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#17 » by Pablo Escobar » Fri May 14, 2010 3:41 am

EXCUSES..... when your team has the best record for the past two years you can't blame your team and if you watched the last 2 games you would know that Lebron didn't even care, there is no way Boston can defend him if he tried his ass off every play he would dominate them so easily.
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#18 » by AdamTheGreek » Fri May 14, 2010 3:50 am

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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#19 » by spree2kawhi » Fri May 14, 2010 3:55 am

wow, the celtics were plain scary in this series!
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Re: LeBron VS. Kobe: There's no comparison 

Post#20 » by kobeaki » Fri May 14, 2010 4:59 am

Optms wrote:
USA wrote:Coaches and teammates have more to do with a players 'greatness' than vengeance. Lebron is still the best player in the NBA. The overreaction to his last few games have been nothing short of shocking.


I disagree. Considering Cleveland is the consensus favorite to win it all, were the heavily favorite to beat Boston with supposedly the best player on the planet, no. The spot light is justifiable to the caliber of team everyone believes they are. To lose at home the way they've lost is simply inexcusable for any playoff team, let alone one of their magnitude.



my only counter to what you said is, ask ourselves who said "cleveland was the odds on favorites"?

consider the sources, typically the usual suspects, espn, etc.

and this could happen to us as well, so we shouldnt be too arrogant, that said, lebron isnt gonna get a ship this year, neither will shaq, 2 out three so far...
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