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Ok, it's only obvious that many here are fed up with Ron and D.Fish as starters. I see a lot of suggestions here on what to do with them, some logical some too irrational to conceive. Fellas it's a reasons both are starting, and it's a reason Phil won't even entertain taking them out the line up. Let me just elaborate on the reasons here with both players.

Yes we're probably the most PG deprived team in the league, yes Fish is past his prime and even during his prime he was just a hustle player. These players don't have a long shelf lives, elements of their games erode much quicker than a skill player such as Kobe. Fish doesn't have speed to check the ultra quick PG's. We can sit here all day and complain on what he doesn't bring defensively and how his offense is spotty.

But the thing that Fish has in his arsenal is what guys here calling for Blake as a starter doesn't have, that's clutch moxie. It's the reason Phil won't remove him, plus Phil is use to working with guys like that. John Paxon was the exact mode of Fish, Paxon did nothing great but he was competent and stayed in his role. Which brings me to what ails us, Fish is only a detriment when he roams outside of his ability or when we can't keep him in it with precise team play. If you notice in the playoffs this is rarely a issue, because he stays in his operating ability.

As for Ron, it's a delicate set of rules regarding him. And only Phil has the tools to control Ron. Ron in a lot of ways is Fish just bigger, he too must be kept in an operating zone. Ron can't create off the dribble yet this is what we see over and over and it's what gets us out of sync. The main strength with Ron now would be his post game, but how many times have we seen Ron utilize there ? The man has pleaded that he's lost on the perimeter, why not move him to the post in the offense ? At least we won't get the barrage of 3's that he'll jack. The one thing that takes the Triangle out of sync is careless jumpers, something both Fish and Ron does too much.

Bottom line with Ron is this, we got him here for one reason and that was to defend. But in order to get top level defense from Ron he has to feel needed in the offense. Game 7 is the blueprint and solid evidence. The more he was scoring the more suffocating his D got. Pulling Ron from the starting 5 doesn't do any good. Ron is a player you can't lose mentally, benching him would set off who knows what ?

I've saw post with guys calling for Barnes and Blake.....who are we fooling here ? They have deficiencies much worse than either Ron or Fish. Blake isn't a creating PG, he's what coaches call a "stabilizer" meaning he'll just keep things in balance but he doesn't have the ability to push the team to another level. We had that with Farmar but he was too ignorant and defiant with the coaching staff to realize what he had.


In coaching the main thing especially on the pro level more than anything is knowing your guy, what ticks him off, what calms him down and what motivates him. This is what Phil is a master at, Phil understands what his teams need and at what points. The other part is trust, Phil knows what he gets with Ron and Fish at this point in their careers than he would with guys we just got 4 months ago.

Making a move like benching them shows a panic in the teams ability, not only that you shake the confidence of the team. The minute that happens you think you'll see a clutch shot from Fish again ? Or a clutch steal from Ron ? No....a player has to know the coach believes in him in their worst time. You guys don't think Ron and Fish don't know they aren't playing well ? They know trust me they know.

If you listen at Fish and Ron speak they don't lack for confidence, Fish is articulate and Ron is in his own spectrum. Think back to the regular season game in Boston, right at the tip our lovable fool gets in Peirce head. Fellas that screwed over the whole Celtic team that day, but more importantly it set the first building block it was going to be different with us and them.

Bottom line some here just have to deal with them being the starters, until they really fail us they're not coming out.

Jackson is loyal to the veterans that have battled in the trenches that's all. Additionally, Kobe is too and his input probably has some impact on why Fish still gets so much run.

Although I am one of those that think Fish's time to go already passed us bye, I don't have a lot to gripe this year vs last year's regular season. For the most part he's stayed within his limits and has shot pretty decent. However, despite the clutch moxie you bring up I do think that overall Blake is a much better player than Fish. A steady, more athletic option that knows how to push the ball and get people much better shots than Fish. IMO, playing with Kobe and Pau he'd get much better looks and when open the guy is deadly.

We'll have to live with Fish as a starter, but the bulk of the minutes at least in the regular season should go to Blake. Keep Fish fresh for the stretch run and utilize the younger, better option.

As for Ron, he will be fine. The fact that he does not care to contribute with scoring is a good fit for a line up that includes Kobe and Pau who need to get majority of shots in our starting 5.

As long as Phil coaches this team. Fish will be a starter. Blake has been good. But he has not shown that he is that type of player who can win a game. To keep Kobe happy, Fisher will be a starter. It really does not matter who starts a game. It is who finishes a game. Blake might be working his way into that role. He needs to be more of a all around player to get to that next level.

What is the future of the point guard. Well Blake is here for 3 more years. Fisher at lease 1 more year. Will the Lakers try and find a guard in the future. The answer might be yes. It will not be next year as the Lakers keep trading away all there #1 picks. We traded away 2011 #1, that is 4 years in a row the Lakers will not select in the first round. I know we do not want to spend the money on these players. But soon that will catch up to the Lakers and this might become a old team with no young players.

Nice post DEEP. I agree with everything you have said. I find myself shaking my head everytime I see members and other Laker fans calling for Fisher's and Artest's heads, but they're starting and playing for a reason. In as much as they don't offer what we would like to see from them, they do bring it in key moments, and that's all I could really ask for. It also brings a different excitement to watching the Lakers play.

It's a long season. Buckle up for the ride.

I've been watching Ron play since his pre-brawl days. DEEP is right, the more Ron becomes productive on the offensive end, the more tighter his D is. Ron loves the man-to-man challenge, regardless of when he says "scoring doesn't matter", his game speaks louder.
He does seem lost at often times on the offensive end, but he has to make shots - plain and simple. He does have the power to become a better post player than a spot up but he lacks the foot work and agility to become a productive post player.
One more thing that kinda got my attention is this Mr. Nice Guy Ron Artest. Somehow, he's lost his tenaciousness and his intimidation factor. That whole factor of "getting inside the opponent's head" is basically gone. Players now would get a quick T for a fairy-shove.

Now with Fish, for years on end people have been shaking their heads. Surely he has proven those people wrong throughout - but still someone people still want his head for a terrible regular season game. Starting Blake over Fish? Fine. Maybe. Give Blake a 25+ mins per game, and he'd maybe par up with Fish, but the condescending factor is and will always be the clutch ability. Fish has the ability to save us. I have yet to put that certain trust into someone we just got 4 months ago.
I got trust issues.

the team is fine. i want bynum back in the starting line up, that should change things. I also want pau to not revert to his 2008 mode, and play like it's 2009. With a purpose, and with tenacity. Part of it could be fatigue, which is a concern, but there is no excuse for his performance on Christmas. He needs to play with more confidence and fire, we didn't see that against Miami.

artest needs to get his *** out of the gutter and get with it already. and as for fisher the guy makes me sick with his idea of bailing us out each and every time we need a bucket more times then not he only buries us even deeper. save your erratic shot selection for the last a couple of mins of the fourth quarter.

What we see is what we get from Fisher but Artest seriously needs to get his head back in the game. He's screwing around a little too much and I wouldn't mind exploring a trade while his value is still high and we have Barnes ready to step right into that role.

You know you shouldn't read too much into one play but Artest dribbling the ball off his leg out of bounds and then diving after it pretty much summarizes his entire attitude right now. He's not doing the things he should be while preparing for the game and he tries to overcompensate for that while he's playing.

SlavaMedvedenko wrote:What we see is what we get from Fisher but Artest seriously needs to get his head back in the game. He's screwing around a little too much and I wouldn't mind exploring a trade while his value is still high and we have Barnes ready to step right into that role.

You know you shouldn't read too much into one play but Artest dribbling the ball off his leg out of bounds and then diving after it pretty much summarizes his entire attitude right now. He's not doing the things he should be while preparing for the game and he tries to overcompensate for that while he's playing.

unfortunately i think that time has sailed. he's 31, signed to a long term deal, has lost all offensive ability, and is still probably considered somewhat of an off the court concern. i believe the lakers are stuck with him much like luke walton.

Aren't his 4th and 5th seasons partially guaranteed or tied with a team option but yeah he might be tough to move with his offensive credibility as low as it is right now.

SlavaMedvedenko wrote:Aren't his 4th and 5th seasons partially guaranteed or tied with a team option but yeah he might be tough to move with his offensive credibility as low as it is right now.

He has an ETO in 2013-14 that the team can use, basically 2013 will tell us a lot about where he stands.

Post Deep.

Don't Stop Believing Fellas.
It will turn around .

finally, a well worth read

When a team isn't playing well its natural for people to think "shake up" the line up but truthfully it is still early in the season & I agree that when the games are on the line those guys will come through. Its a touch & go situation but Phil is the master of that. Remember Pau was complaining about being tired before Drew got back, now that Drew is back he really hasn't decreased Pau's minutes for 2 reasons.

1. He's not going to rush Drew because Pau is "tired" & risk further injury and in the eyes of most (time will tell) Drew is an injury risk period, even without being rushed back.

2. Phil is probably teaching him "hey on this team, you need to perform tired or not".

So the same goes for Ron & Fish. Phil is probably saying fight your way through your slumps, understand your role in the triangle & most importantly i believe in you guys, you are clutch veterans for a reason, get it figured out. If not Phil usually talks with them & figures out whats in their head.

I have been fed up with Fisher for years already, so my criticism of him is nothing new. I don't know why people try to act like Fisher is only criticized when we lose. It's basically a regular occurrence in every single game thread. In past years there wasn't a whole lot to be done about it because the only other option was Farmar, but now we actually have a legit PG that is simply a better all around player and decision-maker.

The reason he is starting is because Phil doesn't want to hurt his feelings, plain and simple. Kurt Rambis said as much last year in an interview. He doesn't want his minutes reduced and wouldn't handle a reduced role very well. People can talk about his clutch moxie all the want, but that right there is why he is playing way more minutes than he should be.

laduane1 wrote:As long as Phil coaches this team. Fish will be a starter. Blake has been good. But he has not shown that he is that type of player who can win a game.

Except that he hit a game-winner on opening night.


I don't mind Artest all that much, to be perfectly honest. At least he can still play sound defense and create havoc out there (except for when he faces LeBron, who completely owns him). Fisher doesn't do that, ever. Everyone knows he's going to get his ass chewed up by whatever PG we're facing, and it's become quite common for us to expect opposing PG's to have a career night. Why that's become acceptable is beyond me, but hey, let's keep deluding ourselves.

I agree with everything deep. Esp on the Artest one. I agree that Phil doesn't want fisher to lose his confidence, he actually stated that last year, he said that he's afraid that he might lose fish if he reduced his role/bench him. But IMO Blake should still get more minutes or more PT with the starters. Phil should be more open and start trusting Blake/Brown more.