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What Exactly Is The Issue?

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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#121 » by leeprettyp » Fri Jan 4, 2013 8:19 pm

dockingsched wrote:what motivation is there to get from watching kobe not try on defense?

i'm not trying to put any blame on kobe here and his "leadership", but man, some of the posts u guys make in support of kobe are crazy. yeah he has great work ethic, the best, but in game, there's no denying he's being lazy on defense more often than not.


Kobe isnt the only person who has sucked on the defensive end and thats what u guys seem to miss. Our Center who healthy is a 1 man defense basically has stunk on that end of the court also. And Steve Clifford is the defensive coach Dwight had in Orlando with those crappy wing defenders he played with. We're running a defensive system that is predicated on Dwight being Dwight and to this point he isnt healthy and he isnt protecting the paint and his recovery sux. So to finger point Kobe is the biggest issue I have. I know several players in the NBA personally. Some that play on teams in our own division and each one of them basically say Dwight is the reason that we suck right now on both ends of the court. ( I argue he's not healthy to them) but hey thats how his own personal co-workers feel about him now. The its "kobe fault" argument gets old to me. Hey Doc I respect your opinion but most of u are off base on Kobe is the single problem on the defensive end. I feel our whole team as a WHOLE sux (every single player) on that end of the court
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#122 » by dockingsched » Fri Jan 4, 2013 8:23 pm

your point is spot on, i just disagreed with several of your comments crediting kobe for "leaving it all out there" and for "working insanely hard". he's just as guilty of poor effort as anyone else.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#123 » by leeprettyp » Fri Jan 4, 2013 8:33 pm

lol trust I know I'm a super homer when it comes to my Lakers and the players on it. I just hate how everybody is down on our team right now. If only Dwight was healthy this wouldnt even be an issue lol. But the thing I miss is how Phil would sit Kobe to send him a message at times like this when he is playing up to expected standards on either end of the court. IMO I believe the guy is tired because Mike D. wants to play him almost 40mpg at this stage of his career and thats unreal to me.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#124 » by GeneralNash » Fri Jan 4, 2013 11:11 pm

leeprettyp wrote:
dockingsched wrote:what motivation is there to get from watching kobe not try on defense?

i'm not trying to put any blame on kobe here and his "leadership", but man, some of the posts u guys make in support of kobe are crazy. yeah he has great work ethic, the best, but in game, there's no denying he's being lazy on defense more often than not.


Kobe isnt the only person who has sucked on the defensive end and thats what u guys seem to miss. Our Center who healthy is a 1 man defense basically has stunk on that end of the court also. And Steve Clifford is the defensive coach Dwight had in Orlando with those crappy wing defenders he played with. We're running a defensive system that is predicated on Dwight being Dwight and to this point he isnt healthy and he isnt protecting the paint and his recovery sux. So to finger point Kobe is the biggest issue I have. I know several players in the NBA personally. Some that play on teams in our own division and each one of them basically say Dwight is the reason that we suck right now on both ends of the court. ( I argue he's not healthy to them) but hey thats how his own personal co-workers feel about him now. The its "kobe fault" argument gets old to me. Hey Doc I respect your opinion but most of u are off base on Kobe is the single problem on the defensive end. I feel our whole team as a WHOLE sux (every single player) on that end of the court


That is true. Gasol has probably been the worst on the defensive end...and the offensive end. Gasol does not protect the paint, he is the biggest liability and he really should be a backup C off the bench, and then a PF just to add him a little bit more minutes. Regardless, Kobe has shown he cannot get Gasol to put his "big boy pants on."

Maybe time for a trade? Absolutely. But until then Kobe needs to get Gasol in line. Gasol is probably the person that needs to dig really deep, more so than any other player on this team.

If Kobe says "It's my team" then he needs to start acting like a leader. You can't just lead by example, he has to push his teammates and demand more from them every game. That doesn't mean being an a-hole, but it means just what it means...demand more from them. The whole team needs more heart and passion, and they need to have it at tip off...instead of waiting until they are behind by 13 points. Kobe..."it's my team"...so if it is, then the buck has to stop with Kobe. There is a lot of talent on the floor and this team has the pieces to get it done. Time for these guys to have some belief and start winning, or start crying in the locker after losing. Miami Heat cried like babies their first season together because they wanted it bad. This team needs to do the same thing. I want to hear about tears, or see some tears on the court.

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Re: What Exactly Is The Issue? 

Post#125 » by madmaxmedia » Fri Jan 4, 2013 11:24 pm

Dwight is not a liability on this team at either end, far from it. But he is not the same player we thought we were getting, when everyone was thinking this was a 'championship or bust' type roster. More so on the defensive end than the offensive end. What we have now is someone who is roughly on par with a healthly Andrew Bynum (and look at how that went last year.)

In his prime in Orlando, he seemed to cover a 10-12 foot circle inside all by himself. With his length, quickness, and power he covered the paint with relative ease- turn back opposing players, make them change their shots, etc. I think a big difference now is that in order for him to help on D he now needs to commit before the opposing player commits/picks up their dribble, which can lead to defensive breakdowns (i.e. Dwight and Paul looking at each other after the other team dunks.) Before, he could just hang back like a goalie, see what the other team was going to do, then snuff it out like the DPOY he is. He was a game changer at that end of the floor, right now he is not.

On the offensive end, he has less power and quickness and that is resulting in more strips. But it's not so bad IMO.

I don't think he's hurt, but he is still obviously recovering physically from the surgery and I think he actually needs to continue playing himself into better shape, rather than needing rest.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#126 » by leeprettyp » Sat Jan 5, 2013 12:42 am

thats a fair point. but I just feel at this exact time until Dwight is fully recovered(or as close as he ever can be going forward **Gasp**) then Mike D. needs to crater his offense to Gasol being the focal big in the post and moving Dwight to the weakside closer to the rim. Pau at this stage of his career when not being the featuring big in the post wont really give us to much more. Gasol passing ability and back to the basket game is the best in the game still literately but our coach would rather have him around the 3 point line chucking 3's. If thats the case we may need to seriously reach out to some other teams and see what we can get for him. Although they wouldnt listen I hear Rudy Gay is available for the right price. A youthful guy like that at the wing could do WONDERS for us. But we may have to sweeten the deal some way and we have no picks and Zach and Marc are already to 2 bigs there. But hey u know Mitch has done wonders before. Or maybe even the Bargs and Lowry deal could help. We'd get the stretch 4 and the speedy PG we need. I'm hearing the Raptors are considering keeping Calderon at this point over Lowry.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#127 » by CraZyPraiZ » Sat Jan 5, 2013 1:30 am

leeprettyp wrote:
dockingsched wrote:what motivation is there to get from watching kobe not try on defense?

i'm not trying to put any blame on kobe here and his "leadership", but man, some of the posts u guys make in support of kobe are crazy. yeah he has great work ethic, the best, but in game, there's no denying he's being lazy on defense more often than not.


Kobe isnt the only person who has sucked on the defensive end and thats what u guys seem to miss. Our Center who healthy is a 1 man defense basically has stunk on that end of the court also. And Steve Clifford is the defensive coach Dwight had in Orlando with those crappy wing defenders he played with. We're running a defensive system that is predicated on Dwight being Dwight and to this point he isnt healthy and he isnt protecting the paint and his recovery sux. So to finger point Kobe is the biggest issue I have. I know several players in the NBA personally. Some that play on teams in our own division and each one of them basically say Dwight is the reason that we suck right now on both ends of the court. ( I argue he's not healthy to them) but hey thats how his own personal co-workers feel about him now. The its "kobe fault" argument gets old to me. Hey Doc I respect your opinion but most of u are off base on Kobe is the single problem on the defensive end. I feel our whole team as a WHOLE sux (every single player) on that end of the court


Dwight needs touches plain and simple. He pouts when things don't go his way. He is 3rd fiddle on this team. trust me he will bolt after this season.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#128 » by Doormatt » Sat Jan 5, 2013 1:53 am

Father Time wrote:
This. The motivation should come from seeing the team's best player working insanely hard. That would motivate me at least.


im sorry but i find that pathetic. people who need to be motivated by seeing other people work hard have no one to blame but themselves for not being successful. professional players should not need motivation to play hard and give effort from anyone but themselves, they are not children who act petulant because someone else isnt trying. frankly, if this team needs kobe bryant to "lead by example" when it comes to playing defense, then this team does not deserve to win anything.

not only does this apply to basketball, but it applies to everyday life. people who find pride in working hard and are self motivated are usually successful.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#129 » by Doormatt » Sat Jan 5, 2013 2:04 am

GeneralNash wrote: But until then Kobe needs to get Gasol in line. Gasol is probably the person that needs to dig really deep, more so than any other player on this team.


what does this even mean. how is it on kobe to get gasol in line? what is he supposed to do? phil jackson, a person who most of the people on this board idolize, could not help gasol towards the end. hell we saw phil yelling at him on the sidelines in games and it didnt do ****. kobe cannot do a single thing about pau gasol, that is up to pau or the front office to sort out.

people need to start holding the players accountable for their poor play, and yes that includes kobe. by all means he deserves to be called out for his poor defensive effort this year, and at times, questionable shot selection. but so does every other player on this team.

basically, who gives a **** if kobe is the supposed leader of this team, thats just meaningless narrative. whats really important is that many of the players on this team either dont play with effort or just straight up suck, and that needs to be addressed before anything else.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#130 » by Father Time » Sat Jan 5, 2013 2:19 am

Doormatt wrote:
Father Time wrote:
This. The motivation should come from seeing the team's best player working insanely hard. That would motivate me at least.


im sorry but i find that pathetic. people who need to be motivated by seeing other people work hard have no one to blame but themselves for not being successful. professional players should not need motivation to play hard and give effort from anyone but themselves, they are not children who act petulant because someone else isnt trying. frankly, if this team needs kobe bryant to "lead by example" when it comes to playing defense, then this team does not deserve to win anything.

not only does this apply to basketball, but it applies to everyday life. people who find pride in working hard and are self motivated are usually successful.


So arew you suggesting Kobe needs to be the coddling, make my teammates feel good so they play good leader? i'm sorry but that's pathetic imo. these are professionals who should not need to feel like they are friends to play hard.

i'm talking about following kobe's example in how he approaches games, how he studies the game and prepares. that entails working insanely hard. didn't know this was such a debatable concept. how did kobe get to where he is today? he got up 4 hours before school to practice, then practiced after school. professionals can also follow the example of the best player, it's not unheard of.

seriously, there are lots of lazy players in the nba who are also professionals

you're basically saying people can't be motivated or inspired by other people, which is ridiculous. coaches motivate players to play hard, but so do other players.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#131 » by Father Time » Sat Jan 5, 2013 2:20 am

CraZyPraiZ wrote:
leeprettyp wrote:
dockingsched wrote:what motivation is there to get from watching kobe not try on defense?

i'm not trying to put any blame on kobe here and his "leadership", but man, some of the posts u guys make in support of kobe are crazy. yeah he has great work ethic, the best, but in game, there's no denying he's being lazy on defense more often than not.


Kobe isnt the only person who has sucked on the defensive end and thats what u guys seem to miss. Our Center who healthy is a 1 man defense basically has stunk on that end of the court also. And Steve Clifford is the defensive coach Dwight had in Orlando with those crappy wing defenders he played with. We're running a defensive system that is predicated on Dwight being Dwight and to this point he isnt healthy and he isnt protecting the paint and his recovery sux. So to finger point Kobe is the biggest issue I have. I know several players in the NBA personally. Some that play on teams in our own division and each one of them basically say Dwight is the reason that we suck right now on both ends of the court. ( I argue he's not healthy to them) but hey thats how his own personal co-workers feel about him now. The its "kobe fault" argument gets old to me. Hey Doc I respect your opinion but most of u are off base on Kobe is the single problem on the defensive end. I feel our whole team as a WHOLE sux (every single player) on that end of the court


Dwight needs touches plain and simple. He pouts when things don't go his way. He is 3rd fiddle on this team. trust me he will bolt after this season.


who cares if he bolts? so what? we reload in 2014, big deal.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#132 » by Doormatt » Sat Jan 5, 2013 2:24 am

no, how the hell did you get that from my post. im saying that the players should be motivated no matter what kobe does, just like players should be motivated to play defense no matter how many touches they get on offense. he shouldnt have to coddle or motivate them in any way. i feel the same way about the idea of players need to be involved offensively to play defense, its bull. star volume scorers have been putting up shots for decades of basketball, and their teammates/role players have shown that a team can still play successful defense with a majority of shots going to a handful or even 1 player. this is proven.

and if anyone should be held responsible for motivating players, its the coach.

Father Time wrote:you're basically saying people can't be motivated or inspired by other people, which is ridiculous. coaches motivate players to play hard, but so do other players.


nope, youre missing the point. im not saying they can not, im saying they should not have to be motivated.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#133 » by JesusisGod » Sat Jan 5, 2013 5:42 am

this is my view of what's going on with Kobe.....
"what do i have left to play for....i have accomplished everything, individually, and team wise"
i feel like that's his attitude.......
barry sanders......the love is gone......even if physically Kobe can play.....
i think he'll retire just because he has nothing left to play FOR
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#134 » by GeneralNash » Sat Jan 5, 2013 6:45 am

Not sure you understand kobe...but kobe only plays to win and the lakers have the resources to make that happen.

I take back what I said about Kobe. He had an amazing performance against the clips on both ends. There just comes a point where you can be the best leader in the world, but sometimes your teammates are just dead weight like pau gasol. Dantoni needs to either figure out how to either utilize gasol or trade him for a power forward that can hit mid range shots.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#135 » by Doormatt » Sat Jan 5, 2013 7:01 am

JesusisGod wrote:this is my view of what's going on with Kobe.....
"what do i have left to play for....i have accomplished everything, individually, and team wise"
i feel like that's his attitude.......
barry sanders......the love is gone......even if physically Kobe can play.....
i think he'll retire just because he has nothing left to play FOR


thats.... really stupid. he obviously still wants to win. how kobe is still somehow getting the blame for the rest of the teams faults is really mind blowing.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#136 » by dockingsched » Sat Jan 5, 2013 7:08 am

kobe's defense was freaking superb today. should put him on the ball way more often, he won't take it easy if his man is trying to take it to him.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#137 » by Kilroy » Sat Jan 5, 2013 7:15 am

Yep, maybe he got a realGM acct with that twitter...

He played really smart ball...

Which leads me to another question, is it just me or has the collective IQ of the Lakers gone down a notch or 2?

Not Nash of course but outside of Kobe, we just seems kinda dumb out there... Pau is smart but he's uninterested...

It's been a while since we had players like this that seemed to need someone telling them what to do.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#138 » by Slava » Sat Jan 5, 2013 7:19 am

SlavaMedvedenko wrote:Does Kobe make mistakes by not sticking to shooters? Yes. Then just put him on a guy that's a dribble penetration threat and he will be forced to stick to his man on the ball instead of concentrating off the ball.


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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#139 » by mjba » Sat Jan 5, 2013 7:22 am

dockingsched wrote:kobe's defense was freaking superb today. should put him on the ball way more often, he won't take it easy if his man is trying to take it to him.

i think the thing is that Kobe has to actually want to take the challenge, on a personal level, for him to do anything other than pull his shorts up and shoot his hands sideways.

he obviously wants to do that against the guys who are his peers - i.e. team USA - and, as has been discussed here ad nauseum, if he doesn't know who you are, or respect you, he refuses to play d at all and it HURTS us a LOT. see: matt barnes three attempt tonight.

his on ball defence, and particularly fighting through screens, was excellent tonight.
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Re: Kobe failing as a leader and destroying Lakers confidenc 

Post#140 » by Doormatt » Sat Jan 5, 2013 7:26 am

his iso, post, and on ball defense has always been good really. he just is super lazy off the ball and has gotten progressively more lazy year by year closing out on shooters. and hes really poor at fighting thru screens.

remember when the lakers were the best team in the league at defending the 3? every single person on this team would run out on shooters. at this point i dont even know if this team knows what closing out is.
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