Assess the level of talent on the team

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Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#1 » by dockingsched » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:58 pm

sorry for the new thread, merge it if its too repetitive...

I see a lot of people calling for D'Antoni's job much like people wanted Mike Brown out too. Now, i'm not saying those people are wrong, but im wondering how good to people actually think the talent is? Do you really think the Lakers have championship level type of talent?

Basically, if phil jackson or greg popovich were the coach and u couldn't put any blame on them, how good do u really think the team would be?

knowing that nash is out the 1st 40 games and starting to show his age, d12 isn't 100%, pau dealing with knee/foot problems, etc, etc, where would the lakers be right now?

personally, i think best case scenario would be somewhere in the 7th-8th spot, showing a clear gap between them and serious contenders. i think the defense would still be seriously lacking just cause the personnel sucks on that end. age would still be showing in the case of nash/pau and kobe somewhat.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#2 » by Father Time » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:11 pm

Decent to great talent in our six best players. Very bad to d-league talent on the rest of the roster. We pretty much have 5 NBA caliber players on the roster.

I think we'd definitely have a playoff seed at least, probably in the 6th to 8th spot with these players. I think in terms of guys 6-12, Phil's 05-07 teams were better than this one. And as much as pop would get the most out of our guys, they just aren't as talented as other teams.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#3 » by briansaddleback » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:27 pm

Dwight is not a franchise player or anchor to build around like I used to think prior to him coming here. He is at best a very good all star caliber defensive role player. We should have never signed Nash although I love him. We fire mike brown and hire Phil to triangulate a pau-Kobe centric offense and defense, and with that the weak bench can still be utilized effectively under Phil ( remember our perennial bad benches even under championship years).
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#4 » by Jetset » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:28 pm

the team is fundamentally flawed, there's no hiding it. we're old. and we probably would've stumbled out of the gate because of the injuries. but there's no doubt in my mind that if popovich or phil were coach that this team would at least have a respectable record. to even ask this question is almost insulting phil and pop.

it's pretty simple, this system doesn't work with the players that we have. and all those who've said that "this is on the players to make it work, it isn't the system" whenever someone says this system is no good now has no choice but to sit there with egg on their faces. because now kobe is saying this isn't working and that he's doing the best he can to please dwight, dwight is trying to dictate the style play, and nash doesn't know what to do. stuff like this wouldn't happen under jackson and popovich.

as far as talent we've got two all stars, more than serviceable point guard, decent sf that's in the twilight of his career, a father timed pau gasol, and no bench. we thought we addressed the bench problem with jamison, unfortunately that didn't pan out quite as expected.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#5 » by Michael Lucky » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:33 pm

I think we have the talent. We won it with a less talented team before, I just think the pieces don't fit. Yes injuries have been a big deal but we should still have been a couple games over 500 with what we had on the roster. D'Antoni does share some blame especially considering he's not using either Dwight and Pau to their strength and has implemented a system where Metta gets more shots than either big. There's no excuse for that last part tbh.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#6 » by Slava » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:38 pm

I think a lot of issues are down to a lack of effort from the players but that does not absolve Mike of all blame.

Its not like the Spurs have players at their peak athletic ability firing on all cylinders either but Popovic has tailored and re-tailored his scheme to fit the talent around the roster. Ginobli looked like he was done in 2007, Duncan is playing like 30 mins a game with Splitter, Diaw and Blair playing major back up minutes.

If our transition defense is slow, why deliberately increase the tempo and make it harder for ourselves? Its not like every other team is already looking to run us up and down the court and we are actually playing right into their hands by making it easier.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#7 » by ArC_man » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:39 pm

If Pop was coaching us we'd probably still be the 6th or 7th seed currently just purely because of the injury problems. However we'd be a team that's really starting to gel at this point and getting ready to push into one of the top 4 seeds after the All-Star break. You'd have to take into consideration that our defensive communication and scheme would be miles better than currently. He'd be utilizing our bench players much better (eg: Jamison wouldn't just be a 3 point shooter) while also managing minutes of our older players much better as well (so Kobe wouldn't be playing 40 minutes a night and he'd probably be much closer to his early season efficiency instead of starting to wear down already).

I don't believe this bull that our bench players aren't NBA level. Meeks, Jamison, and Clark (Hill before he went down) not NBA level? Players that we think are garbage go to SA and turn into gold.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#8 » by Kilroy » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:11 pm

Just to frame my response, because I don't think I fit into the general premise of this thread...

I never thought Mike Brown was the right coach for the job, but I thought he was doing an OK job. I wasn't calling for his head and I didn't think he should have been fired 5 games into the season... I certainly didn't think a Brown for D'Antoni swap was an answer to anything... I also thought the Princeton offense was a much better fit on paper to whatever we're running now.
I would have hired Phil... I thought we would... But I wasn't completely sold on him as our coach of the future... I thought we needed a new face. I just wasn't sure who. I figured I'd leave that to the FO.
I also was willing to give D'Antoni some time to get it together. I defended him longer than many because I know all this takes time. But when the team looked no better when Nash came back, and the players seemed to be even more disgruntled, I gave up.

As for the players and their collective talent level... We have night and day better talent than last season. Talent. Individual performance hasn't been near what I would have expected, but talent wise, we're almost off the charts better.

So you have to ask yourself... Why are we so much worse than we were last year with so much more talent?

To me that's a lack of leadership and identity. Normally, that leadership and identity comes from the best player on the team. Or in the case of the Heat, the 2 best players on the team. But it took a season for them to figure that out. I was prepared for that... Only they were still a formidable team while they figured it out.
In our case, we have 3 to 4 dominant personalities and identities... They are all pulling the team in different directions. I think D'Antoni wants this to be Nash's team and wants the team to take on his identity, which for better or worse, I think is foolish on a team with Kobe on it... I think Kobe is trying to work with it, but doesn't 100% buy in to that. But I think Kobe's about 90% on board.
Pau and Dwight have jumped ship on that one... I don't think either one of them are talking to any of the big 4 about it really. And I think they've both given up on D'Antoni.
Nash is trying to make it work, but isn't going to force the issue especially not with Kobe... And if even Nash isn't 100% invested in D'Antoni's plan, that says something...

So in this particular situation, with so many different dominant personalities, and identities, manifesting themselves into so many differing views of how the team should play. I think you need a coach who's dominant enough to impose his own identity on the team. I think you need a Phil Jackson type coach that brings a dominant personality along with a proven system that takes all the guesswork and responsibility off the players to make the team mesh. You need someone who can tell them in all seriousness, 'When you aren't sure what to do, just run this set, and I guarantee you success'... That's what he brought to the table for Shaq/Kobe, and that's what this team needs.

Do I think Phil Jackson could or would still do this? Honestly I don't know. I doubt it. Frankly he was pretty unimpressive his last season in LA.

So who else? Honestly, maybe a Van Gundy... The more I hear from those guys, the more I'm impressed with their knowledge of the game, integrity and tenacity. Do they have Phil's mystique? No. Would they immediately demand the teams attention like PJ? No. But over time someone like JVG might be a solid coach of the future.
I think like PJ, Sloan might be too old.
I think Doc might be done in Boston after this season, he might be worth a look.
Beyond that, I have no **** idea.

But unless we're willing to trade maybe 2 of our big 4, I firmly believe D'Antoni is the wrong coach for this team.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#9 » by tenten » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:25 pm

won't matter, MDA doesn't know how to handle talents of role players, let along star players.

Hill, Jamison and Meeks each had different stretch of excellence and being in the dog house. Now that Hill is done, Jamison isn't great but he's the only backup pf. I think Meeks is way more talented than Duhon and Morris, yet he's on the bench now?
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#10 » by Doormatt » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:02 am

kilroy posts like i would if i was actually intelligent and able to articulate my thoughts.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#11 » by deNIEd » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:36 am

If you're talking about talent

PG (Nash) - Top 10-12
SG (Kobe) - Top 3
SF (Artest)- Top 15-20
PF (Gasol) - Top 10
C (Howard) - Top 1

Bench - Top 20-25 (Wasn't there a thread earlier about how this was the strongest bench the Lakers have had in ages? :lol: )
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#12 » by albasuna » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:49 am

Talent is there... the personalities aren't resonating though.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#13 » by miggs » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:50 pm

Doormatt wrote:kilroy posts like i would if i was actually intelligent and able to articulate my thoughts.

my thoughts exactly, if only we could articulate that way
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#14 » by AcecardZ » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:59 pm

re: Team talent

Overall offense: A-

Overal defense: D-

Useless Nash + Gasol paired with older and much slower Kobe and Ron Ron can not be saved by a gimpy Dwight Howard.

Bottom line our defense is ffing attrocious and won't be better anytime soon.
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#15 » by Kilroy » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:24 pm

miggs wrote:
Doormatt wrote:kilroy posts like i would if i was actually intelligent and able to articulate my thoughts.

my thoughts exactly, if only we could articulate that way

Thanks guys. I have my lucid moments. 8-)
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Re: Assess the level of talent on the team 

Post#16 » by vmor » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:41 pm

Both Pop and Phil design systems to take advantage of the talent they are given. Even with the injuries, they'd have the team play respectable offense AND defense, no doubt - despite mostly playing with a 3rd and 4th PG. MDA tries to tweak the players to fit his one and only system, more or less. That must be killing some effort too...

As far as Lakers' talent, it looks like TALENT 1 : 0 EFFORT ;-)

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