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First off, I'm a Spurs fan. I've started taken an interest in Lakers after their latest surge and that the Spurs might meet LA in the first round.

Anyways, what I'm seeing with my eyes about the Lakers just so different than what they should be (on paper).

For instance, on paper, they should have a great team defense. From the games I've started to watch, it looks like Lakers fare better againts teams that play iso ball a lot because LA do have strong individual defense, but their "Team Defense" looks extremely awful. Weakside help is always late. Lots of what we call dumb fouls. And there's a whole lot of missed rotations. P&R defense is beyond awful. Is this assessment about the Lakers right?

Also, it feels odd saying this about a team that has tons of scoring weapons (Dwight, Kobe, Nash, Jamison, Artest), but it feels like everytime I watch the Lakers play, there's no dependable source of scoring other than Kobe. I'm seeing a lot of Nash/Dwight P&R that most of the time results to nothing. A lot of Dwight posts up that can't be considered efficient. And then there's almost zero ball movement. It's almost like this team has no scoring weapons other than Kobe. 80% of this offense is basically Kobe ISO/Post Up. Is this also a right assessment?

Basically, I'm trying to learn more about this current Laker team considering you guys might be a playoff matchup. Right now, it feels like our team's strengths is everything LA is bad at.

Lakers seriously miss Gasol higher IQ in the low post in play making or posting up.

Spurs will do just fine with Parker penetrating, this is the Lakers weak spot is dribble penetration and kicking it out for 3's.

Lakers just don't have the shooters to compliment the pick and roll with Nash and Dwight. Depends on Howards energy level to when it comes to PnR

co_laper wrote:First off, I'm a Spurs fan. I've started taken an interest in Lakers after their latest surge and that the Spurs might meet LA in the first round.

Anyways, what I'm seeing with my eyes about the Lakers just so different than what they should be (on paper).

For instance, on paper, they should have a great team defense. From the games I've started to watch, it looks like Lakers fare better againts teams that play iso ball a lot because LA do have strong individual defense, but their "Team Defense" looks extremely awful. Weakside help is always late. Lots of what we call dumb fouls. And there's a whole lot of missed rotations. P&R defense is beyond awful. Is this assessment about the Lakers right?

Also, it feels odd saying this about a team that has tons of scoring weapons (Dwight, Kobe, Nash, Jamison, Artest), but it feels like everytime I watch the Lakers play, there's no dependable source of scoring other than Kobe. I'm seeing a lot of Nash/Dwight P&R that most of the time results to nothing. A lot of Dwight posts up that can't be considered efficient. And then there's almost zero ball movement. It's almost like this team has no scoring weapons other than Kobe. 80% of this offense is basically Kobe ISO/Post Up. Is this also a right assessment?

Basically, I'm trying to learn more about this current Laker team considering you guys might be a playoff matchup. Right now, it feels like our team's strengths is everything LA is bad at.

The analysis you made more relates to the last week or week and a 1/2...and especially the last 3 games or so. But you're right "generally".

As far as defense...the team defense was getting better up until recently. Players were rotating better and helping. Its looked really bad the last 2 games and has regressed in the last 1 1/2-2 weeks. I'm not sure why. Kobe starting to shoot more again? It does kind of seem like it has went down as Kobe started to shoot a bit more.

And Artest and Howard make tons of dumb fouls. Both appear to be injured.

The offense looked really good when Dwight was out and Gasol was in. There was a 3 game stretch before Gasol went out that the team looked the best it has overall. However, if Dwight is playing well during a game the Lakers are a little better with Dwight then with Gasol...as Howard is capable of better defense and offensive rebounds. But it is few and far between.

As far as the offense with Howard/Nash. Howard cannot post up at all consistently. With the injury he lost the one advantage he had...athletic ability. He is a turnover machine unless he is fed right near the basket. Even then its not great. Nash/Howard pick and roll is terrible. Howard cannot do it and the best Nash gets out of it is a jump shot. I mentioned on another thread that Nash/Sacre is much better on the pick n roll.

However, there has been good ball movement overall...just not the last couple games. Kobe has been moving the ball around. Again, Howard and Artest are the big problem on that end. Howard not playing hard and Artest as a ball stopper.

Anyway, it has been a regression the last few games by the Lakers. Kobe playing great is nice but defense and ball movement are not as good recently. The Lakers seem to fix one thing and another breaks.

That being said, the Spurs do not have stoppers for Kobe, Nash, or Howard so its a terrible matchup for you guys. By far the worst possible. Not that the Lakers can guard the Spurs of course but that kind of makes it even.

co_laper wrote:For instance, on paper, they should have a great team defense. From the games I've started to watch, it looks like Lakers fare better againts teams that play iso ball a lot because LA do have strong individual defense, but their "Team Defense" looks extremely awful. Weakside help is always late. Lots of what we call dumb fouls. And there's a whole lot of missed rotations. P&R defense is beyond awful. Is this assessment about the Lakers right?

i'm not really seeing how the lakers, on paper, should be a great defense. the only great defender they have is d12, but he's been so limited due to his injuries. his effort has been questioned at times, but thats up for debate. what isn't is his limited explosion and quickness. other than that, nash/jamison are a huge defensive liabilities, have been for yrs, kobe has been avg at best over the last few yrs, MWP isn't quick enough to guard most SF's anymore, gasol has been too slow to guard pf's for a few seasons now and his hurt feet don't help. lakers, on paper, only have one true good defensive player and a bunch of below avg, and at times old, defenders.
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Also, it feels odd saying this about a team that has tons of scoring weapons (Dwight, Kobe, Nash, Jamison, Artest), but it feels like everytime I watch the Lakers play, there's no dependable source of scoring other than Kobe. I'm seeing a lot of Nash/Dwight P&R that most of the time results to nothing. A lot of Dwight posts up that can't be considered efficient. And then there's almost zero ball movement. It's almost like this team has no scoring weapons other than Kobe. 80% of this offense is basically Kobe ISO/Post Up. Is this also a right assessment?

i think you're pretty spot on in what you're seeing, that a lot of the offense depends on kobe. i think where you miss the point a bit is in your assessment of the type of scoring weapons the lakers have. they have one person that can create for others consistently, thats kobe. nash obviously can too, but with his recovery from injury and his overall declining game due to age, its a lot more common to see athletic wings aggressively trap him, and he's had a lot of trouble dealing with that. d12, well, without his explosion, he sucks in the post. jamison has been a great off the ball scoring weapon, and meeks has had his good games too. the prolonged absence of pau doesn't help, specially when he was playing, he was still dealing with an injured foot.

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IamBBAnalysis wrote:The analysis you made more relates to the last week or week and a 1/2...and especially the last 3 games or so. But you're right "generally".

As far as defense...the team defense was getting better up until recently. Players were rotating better and helping. Its looked really bad the last 2 games and has regressed in the last 1 1/2-2 weeks. I'm not sure why. Kobe starting to shoot more again? It does kind of seem like it has went down as Kobe started to shoot a bit more.

And Artest and Howard make tons of dumb fouls. Both appear to be injured.

The offense looked really good when Dwight was out and Gasol was in. There was a 3 game stretch before Gasol went out that the team looked the best it has overall. However, if Dwight is playing well during a game the Lakers are a little better with Dwight then with Gasol...as Howard is capable of better defense and offensive rebounds. But it is few and far between.

As far as the offense with Howard/Nash. Howard cannot post up at all consistently. With the injury he lost the one advantage he had...athletic ability. He is a turnover machine unless he is fed right near the basket. Even then its not great. Nash/Howard pick and roll is terrible. Howard cannot do it and the best Nash gets out of it is a jump shot. I mentioned on another thread that Nash/Sacre is much better on the pick n roll.

However, there has been good ball movement overall...just not the last couple games. Kobe has been moving the ball around. Again, Howard and Artest are the big problem on that end. Howard not playing hard and Artest as a ball stopper.

Anyway, it has been a regression the last few games by the Lakers. Kobe playing great is nice but defense and ball movement are not as good recently. The Lakers seem to fix one thing and another breaks.

That being said, the Spurs do not have stoppers for Kobe, Nash, or Howard so its a terrible matchup for you guys. By far the worst possible. Not that the Lakers can guard the Spurs of course but that kind of makes it even.

From the looks of it though, Spurs don't need to have stoppers for Nash. He's not doing enough damage offensively even againts the worst teams. But ofcourse we have stoppers for Dwight and Kobe. No, I don't mean someone who can totally shut them down to a point of 2 points in 1-10 FG and such. But Kawhi and Duncan are more than capable. Plus, looking at how LA scores their points, I think our team defense is perfectly equipped to defend Kobe post ups. But alright, I'll give Kobe his due that he'll be able to score 30 againts us. But Dwight? Nash? Unless LA uses those two guys differently, it looks like they'll shut themselves down even againts an average defense.

I mean, even you agreed that Howard is inefficient and Nash has turned into a spot up shooter/jump shooter in P&R with Dwight.

Spurs vs Lakers is a terrible matchup from an individual standpoint, but that will apply againts every team because well.. on paper.. LA is sort of like an All-star collection. But on-court production? Looks to me like the Spurs should own the Lakers. I can't even find out what the Lakers do well on, but their biggest weaknesses are Spurs strengths.

The one thing that I can fear about the Lakers is their size.. because Gasol and Dwight can be an even scarier version of Gasol-Bynum. But that's because in the Phil era, they both play in the low post. In this system, you can guard Gasol with Boris Diaw and it'd be a wash. In the past, putting Tony Parker on Steve Nash means risking Tony get in foul trouble or being exhausted from chasing him around. Now? Guarding Nash is like taking a rest because he's turned into a spot up shooter and occasional ball handler it seems.

co_laper wrote:First off, I'm a Spurs fan. I've started taken an interest in Lakers after their latest surge and that the Spurs might meet LA in the first round.

I don't think the Spurs will finish in the 1 seed, Pop has been known to piss away games here and there. Won't surprise me one bit seeing him tank to avoid the Lakers.

co_laper wrote:For instance, on paper, they should have a great team defense.

We don't have enough perimeter speed to be a great defensive team.

co_laper wrote: Weakside help is always late. Lots of what we call dumb fouls. And there's a whole lot of missed rotations. P&R defense is beyond awful. Is this assessment about the Lakers right?

Some of that is myth, some of this is on Dwight also. Centers tend to over show on P&R, and that leads to the breakdowns. Some of it is on the guards not fighting over screens......it goes both ways. But lets not act like every team in the league except the Lakers are excellent against screen/roll. This gets overplayed way too much, all 30 teams suck on screen/roll.

co_laper wrote:Also, it feels odd saying this about a team that has tons of scoring weapons (Dwight, Kobe, Nash, Jamison, Artest), but it feels like everytime I watch the Lakers play, there's no dependable source of scoring other than Kobe.

False, if the ball moves we have guys that can chip in.

co_laper wrote: I'm seeing a lot of Nash/Dwight P&R that most of the time results to nothing. A lot of Dwight posts up that can't be considered efficient. And then there's almost zero ball movement. It's almost like this team has no scoring weapons other than Kobe. 80% of this offense is basically Kobe ISO/Post Up. Is this also a right assessment?

Bluntly put.......your assessment is way off, it's clear to me you've only caught the national games.

co_laper wrote:Basically, I'm trying to learn more about this current Laker team considering you guys might be a playoff matchup. Right now, it feels like our team's strengths is everything LA is bad at.

The Spurs have a myriad of weakness. They're not an exceptionally strong rebounding team, and just like last playoffs even against the Jazz they struggled. And they'll struggle again even if it's not against the Lakers. Secondly your team is perimeter based, if those 3's aren't falling they struggle. And the Spurs post play is as weak as ever, you can't just dump the ball to Duncan and expect production.

And let's not act like you have shut down defenders.........you DON'T. Your best defender is past his prime defensively, I don't need to say his name because he's also your former best offensive player. Further more the Spurs have misled you guys for the last 3-4 season, posting outstanding regular season records only to be decimated in the playoffs. The same young players the Spurs have milked, became milk carton material in the playoffs.

If I were you I'd ease back on coming to another teams board and try to talk down that team and what they are or what you think they are. For the Lakers to have players miss as many games as they have and still be in a playoff hunt by less than 10 games at this stage of the season is a testament to it's will to keep fighting.

Simply put I look at the Spurs roster and see NO ONE that can contain Kobe for a series, that doesn't bode too well for them should they meet.

If Spurs are capable of playing good to passable D then so should this team its not like they have tons of elite defenders.....thats all on coaching IMO, just not very good communication and or strategy.

co_laper wrote:

IamBBAnalysis wrote:The analysis you made more relates to the last week or week and a 1/2...and especially the last 3 games or so. But you're right "generally".

As far as defense...the team defense was getting better up until recently. Players were rotating better and helping. Its looked really bad the last 2 games and has regressed in the last 1 1/2-2 weeks. I'm not sure why. Kobe starting to shoot more again? It does kind of seem like it has went down as Kobe started to shoot a bit more.

And Artest and Howard make tons of dumb fouls. Both appear to be injured.

The offense looked really good when Dwight was out and Gasol was in. There was a 3 game stretch before Gasol went out that the team looked the best it has overall. However, if Dwight is playing well during a game the Lakers are a little better with Dwight then with Gasol...as Howard is capable of better defense and offensive rebounds. But it is few and far between.

As far as the offense with Howard/Nash. Howard cannot post up at all consistently. With the injury he lost the one advantage he had...athletic ability. He is a turnover machine unless he is fed right near the basket. Even then its not great. Nash/Howard pick and roll is terrible. Howard cannot do it and the best Nash gets out of it is a jump shot. I mentioned on another thread that Nash/Sacre is much better on the pick n roll.

However, there has been good ball movement overall...just not the last couple games. Kobe has been moving the ball around. Again, Howard and Artest are the big problem on that end. Howard not playing hard and Artest as a ball stopper.

Anyway, it has been a regression the last few games by the Lakers. Kobe playing great is nice but defense and ball movement are not as good recently. The Lakers seem to fix one thing and another breaks.

That being said, the Spurs do not have stoppers for Kobe, Nash, or Howard so its a terrible matchup for you guys. By far the worst possible. Not that the Lakers can guard the Spurs of course but that kind of makes it even.

From the looks of it though, Spurs don't need to have stoppers for Nash. He's not doing enough damage offensively even againts the worst teams. But ofcourse we have stoppers for Dwight and Kobe. No, I don't mean someone who can totally shut them down to a point of 2 points in 1-10 FG and such. But Kawhi and Duncan are more than capable. Plus, looking at how LA scores their points, I think our team defense is perfectly equipped to defend Kobe post ups. But alright, I'll give Kobe his due that he'll be able to score 30 againts us. But Dwight? Nash? Unless LA uses those two guys differently, it looks like they'll shut themselves down even againts an average defense.

I mean, even you agreed that Howard is inefficient and Nash has turned into a spot up shooter/jump shooter in P&R with Dwight.

Spurs vs Lakers is a terrible matchup from an individual standpoint, but that will apply againts every team because well.. on paper.. LA is sort of like an All-star collection. But on-court production? Looks to me like the Spurs should own the Lakers. I can't even find out what the Lakers do well on, but their biggest weaknesses are Spurs strengths.

The one thing that I can fear about the Lakers is their size.. because Gasol and Dwight can be an even scarier version of Gasol-Bynum. But that's because in the Phil era, they both play in the low post. In this system, you can guard Gasol with Boris Diaw and it'd be a wash. In the past, putting Tony Parker on Steve Nash means risking Tony get in foul trouble or being exhausted from chasing him around. Now? Guarding Nash is like taking a rest because he's turned into a spot up shooter and occasional ball handler it seems.

As stated...the Lakers are the worst possible early round matchup for the Spurs. This is not some Laker fan thing. I guess your agenda is just to talk smack about Lakers vs Spurs? I mentioned one line about a terrible matchup and you jumped on it. It is fact. The Spurs cannot possibly lose to Hourston, GS, or Utah. They can lose to the Lakers.

Why?

1) The Spurs do not have extreme youth and athleticism...as teams like OKC and Denver has. This is what causes the Lakers difficulty the most. The Lakers do not want to face those two teams.

2) The Lakers can go big or small in the front court and it really won't hurt them. The Spurs are not a great rebounding team and do not have great athletes up front. This will allow the Lakers to be ok if the go big with Gasol/Howard or small. With most teams they have a severe matchup disadvantage. Howard's best moves in the post work against guys who are not overly athletic or too strong (guys like Perkins or Javalee McGee give him problems). He's not great in the Post but he is effective and the Spurs have players he can be effective against.

3) Kobe is the best player in the series. He's shooting a high % and attacking the hoop. This isn't the old Kobe. He literally can win games by himself against the Spurs right now.

4) I didn't say Nash is shooting only spot up jumpers. He gets a lot of shots off the pick and roll. They just are mostly jumpers. What I said is Nash is not getting other guys lots of looks. Teams are sticking with Dwight and giving Nash the jumper usually. He's still averaging 12 pts and 7 assists on 50/40/90 shooting and his scoring average has been around 15 ppg as of late. And this relates to matchups because the Spurs will have to guard Nash with Parker and Parker is not one to contest Nash's jumper.

Anyway, the point being its a bad matchup for the Spurs. The Lakers also have experience that rivals the Spurs...if not surpasses. The Spurs are certainly the better team but as a Spurs fan you have to worry that the Lakers will raise their level come playoff time...while the Spurs have been playing at a high level all year.

okay who let the troll out

IamBBAnalysis wrote:

co_laper wrote:As stated...the Lakers are the worst possible early round matchup for the Spurs. This is not some Laker fan thing. I guess your agenda is just to talk smack about Lakers vs Spurs? I mentioned one line about a terrible matchup and you jumped on it. It is fact. The Spurs cannot possibly lose to Hourston, GS, or Utah. They can lose to the Lakers.

Why?

1) The Spurs do not have extreme youth and athleticism...as teams like OKC and Denver has. This is what causes the Lakers difficulty the most. The Lakers do not want to face those two teams.

2) The Lakers can go big or small in the front court and it really won't hurt them. The Spurs are not a great rebounding team and do not have great athletes up front. This will allow the Lakers to be ok if the go big with Gasol/Howard or small. With most teams they have a severe matchup disadvantage. Howard's best moves in the post work against guys who are not overly athletic or too strong (guys like Perkins or Javalee McGee give him problems). He's not great in the Post but he is effective and the Spurs have players he can be effective against.

3) Kobe is the best player in the series. He's shooting a high % and attacking the hoop. This isn't the old Kobe. He literally can win games by himself against the Spurs right now.

4) I didn't say Nash is shooting only spot up jumpers. He gets a lot of shots off the pick and roll. They just are mostly jumpers. What I said is Nash is not getting other guys lots of looks. Teams are sticking with Dwight and giving Nash the jumper usually. He's still averaging 12 pts and 7 assists on 50/40/90 shooting and his scoring average has been around 15 ppg as of late. And this relates to matchups because the Spurs will have to guard Nash with Parker and Parker is not one to contest Nash's jumper.

Anyway, the point being its a bad matchup for the Spurs. The Lakers also have experience that rivals the Spurs...if not surpasses. The Spurs are certainly the better team but as a Spurs fan you have to worry that the Lakers will raise their level come playoff time...while the Spurs have been playing at a high level all year.

Great points. Thanks for the input.

I am a huge lakers fans. But I don't think Spur will deliberately tank to avoid us at 8th seed. Sure, out of all the potential lower seed playoff teams, we may give them the most problem in the first round. But still, I will only put our chance of upsetting them about 30-40%. They will still be the favorite to come out for the series. On the other hand, if they are serious about getting out of the west, it is important to have home court against OKC. It is close to impossible to beat them at their home court.

Moreover, there is no guarantee the Lakers can get into playoff. On the other hand, if we get into playoff, we could as easily become the 6th or 7th seed as the 8th considering how close GS, HOU and UTAH are record wise. I see no reason why Spur would like to avoid Lakers by giving up the 1st seed.

Agreed. I don't see Popovich planning to avoid a team that is still fighting for a playoffs spot. As optimistic as we can be, it's not a sure thing. Stuff happens, as evident by the shocking place that the Lakers have found themselves to be in thus far.

re: "all 30 teams suck" playing pick and roll defense - for one, Miami doesn't. they kill pick and roll offenses