Voting Closed KB89 Advances 7-4

[EArl]

Please rank these teams 1 and 2 based on who has the best combination of team chemistry, offense, defense, intangibles, and the gm's word. Everyone and anyone is welcomed to vote, you need not have a team in this contest to vote. Feel free to provide a 1-2 sentence explanation of your rankings if you wish.
Remember every player is in their prime.
Here are the rosters for your consideration:


KB89:

Spoiler:

C - Shaquille O'Neal
PF - Dennis Rodman
SF - Ron Artest
SG - Lou Hudson
PG - Charlie Scott
6th Man - Antawn Jamison
Coach - Rick Carlisle

This team is loaded both on offense and defense. Let's start off with the most vital piece to the team, and that is Shaq. Shaq was an incredibly dominant force in his prime. He would be the vocal point of our offense, and shut down the lane on defense. Dennis Rodman is a perfect player to have on a team loaded with such offensive fire power. He is a rare superstar that knew where he thrived, accepted that, and gave it his all in these areas every game. His defense and rebounding skills are unmatchable, and his knack of getting in opposing players heads was an area of his game that is often over looked. The final member of my starting front court is Ron Artest, an elite defender, a good scorer, and an effective three point shooter. Artest in his prime was a shut down defender, and is absolutely a crucial piece to this team to shut down the opposing team's best perimeter player. Antawn Jamison is a spark plug off the bench, who even won 6th Man of the Year award once, so he's clearly comfortable in that role. He would help create space in the lane for Shaq, since he is an excellent stretch four. This front court has everything I feel; and would hold an advantage over any front court.

For my back court, Lou Hudson is an elite shooter, which was really needed for this team. He was a 6 time Al-Star, averaged 27, 6, and 3 in his prime, and is an overall great guy and an excellent teammate. Charlie Scott has great size for a PG at 6’5”, was a 5 time All-Star, and had career averages of 21, 5, and 4. This backcourt has a good combination of scoring, play making, shooting, and size.

Rick Carlisle has been a winner everywhere he’s gone, and has led teams to thrive at the defensive side of the ball everywhere he’s been. His game plans and coaching led to the Mavericks upsetting the Heat in the Finals. Given this roster, I know he would be able to get it to reach its full potential and help mold this team into the best in the league.

VS



Doormatt:

Spoiler:

G: Steve Nash
G: Glen Rice
F: Caron Butler
F: Theo Ratliff
C: Pau Gasol

6th man: Matt Barnes

Head Coach: Tom Thibodeau

I think my team is pretty straight forward. The goal was to surround Nash with the shooters+pick n roll players he needs to run a GOAT level offense. With Pau, he not only gets a big who can PnR with him, but also a solid defensive player in the middle. Next to Theo (who made a few all defensive teams+led the league in blocks) they have enough defense+rebounding in the middle to let their high powered offense destroy other teams. Rice is a deadly shooter and will be getting wide open looks all day while Caron will offer a go to scoring threat when Nash is tired/off (which is rare). Matt Barnes is the ultimate hustle player that can be subbed in for defensive assignments/when the team wants to really get out and run. Thibs is the ideal coach for this team as Nash has proven it doesnt matter who the coach is (see Gentry), he just needs capable players to run high level offense. Thibs in the meantime will be creating defensive schemes that will lock down anything they see, as he is imo the smartest defensive coach in the league. its no coincidence wherever he goes a great defense follows.

Dont forget to vote in the other threads
#1
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1268757&p=36784583#p36784583
#2
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1268758
#3
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1268759

[NOODLESTYLE]

Edit: Question? since it's one on one matchups, are GM's going to be allowed to breakdown and share state their gameplan on how they are going to try to beat their opponents?

Example: Throw it down to Shaq in the post and let him go to work. Rodman out hustling Gasol. Ron Artest relentless on Rice.

Edit - Vote: Rescinded. Waiting for KB89 to respond.

[EArl]

Spoiler:

Question? since it's one on one matchups, GMS are not going to be allowed to breakdown how they are going to compete against their opponents?

Example: Throw it down to Shaq in the post and let him go to work. Rodman out hustling Gasol. Ron Artest relentless on Rice.

Vote: KB89 - No answer for Shaq, Artest takes out Rice, Rodman frustrates Gasol. Too much power and defense.

I thought about that, but for the sake of hurrying it up to the next round we will keep it as is.
For the final they can do that. and i dont think it would make a difference anyways.

I vote
Doormatt

[Kilroy]

KB89...

His team would have been beastly defensively but also able to score at will... Shaq, Rodman, and Artest would be nuts... And Jamison also in his prime?

[dockingsched]

i'll hold off my vote til i hear from the gm's, same for the other two brackets

[TyCobb]

KB89 for me as well. Great balance and size everywhere.

[Doormatt]

I've seen no explanation of how they are supposed to stop the Nash pick n roll when shaq is a notoriously lazy PnR defender and Nash is the GOAT PnR guard. Also how is Artest going to shut down rice? He's a nearly 50% 3pt shooter, all he has to do is sit beyond the arc and wait for Artest to help off the inevitable penetration Nash will get. And then whose going to guard Butler if you put Artest on rice? Either way there is going to be a mismatch and I don't think his team can stop mine from scoring as its based around the PnR and spacing, 2 things that Shaq won't have much to say about.

And smh you guys are supposed to be laker fans and youre spouting this nonsense about how Rodman will bother and out hustle Gasol. Do you not remember the 2010 finals? What about 09? Does anyone here want to say that Shaq or Rodman are that much better defensively (if at all) than peak Dwight or old KG? If Gasol could be effective against Dwight then there's no reason to think he couldn't be effective against Rodman or Shaq.

Also have no idea how his team is getting a pass for being so weak offensively. Rodman is useless on offense, there is no spacing, and very few players capable of creating. I dont even think peak shaq can carry that team on offense, especially since Gasol and Ratliff can basically double team him off of Rodman. Thibs IMO could create a defensive scheme good enough to pull out a win in a 7 game series.

[TylersLakers]

KB89.

The D in the front court would be too much. Prime Shaq on the other end would dominate.

[crazyeights]

KB89. Shaq/Rodman/Artest would out muscle and frustrate just about anybody, but especially in this matchup.

[Mirjalovic]

KB89.

Theo Ratliff will be able to slowing down Shaq, but not much. Rodman could guard Gasol in the post, despite in theory Rodman can do it, i believe Gasol will find his way to score over him, and pass it out to better looking teammates. I don't know how well Nash against Lou or Charlie, but i believe Butler is inferior than them all, and can be destroyed by Ron Artest.

[NOODLESTYLE]

Doormatt,

I think if you had a better stretch 4, maybe playing Rice there and starting Barnes, you would be able to exploit Shaq more on defense. But then you lose size. Otherwise, Shaq would be on Ratliff probably and sag off if Rodman needed help. I think Nash, although a great pick and roll player, he can be bothered by length. That's what SA did when they put Bowen on him, and if KB decided to put Artest or Rodman on him with Shaq protecting the paint, Nash is going to be in trouble.

Plus he has a prime Jamison off the bench that can also switch on matchups and still put up buckets. A Prime Shaq has made defenders like Zo and Dikembe look like backup centers, so I don't see Ratliff doing that much to contain him. Charlie Scott has enough size to make Nash work on D as well. Hudson and Butler are about even, Butler with more D, while Hudson gets tons of easy points off Shaq.

[Doormatt]

That's what SA did when they put Bowen on him, and if KB decided to put Artest on him with Shaq protecting the paint, Nash is going to be in trouble.

no, san antiono never bothered nash with bowen. he averaged 21/12 on 60 TS% and shot 50%+ from 3 nearly every game. in fact no team has really ever stopped nash, the only reason his teams have lost is because they didnt have the defense, which is what happens when you play amare stoudemire and boris diaw in your front court. putting artest on nash would be a huge waste because no single player can stop the pick n roll and nash doesnt need much space to get a shot off anyways. and if they put shaq on ratliff that means rodman is on gasol which is a pretty huge advantage for him in the post since gasol has more than a few inches on him. and i have to seriously question the idea that charlie scott can guard steve nash because he has size, that doesnt make any sense.

Plus he has a prime Jamison off the bench that can also switch on matchups and still put up buckets.

prime jamison is without a doubt one of the worst defensive players of this generation (at least among well known players). he would see very little playing time in this series as my team would just run him over as he cant guard anyone the offensive advantage would not be worth it to have him on the court. i just checked and every season apart from 2008, his team has been better defensively with him on the bench.

i still dont see where his team is getting the points to outscore mine, shaq isnt going to average 50ppg but w/e.

[EArl]

That's what SA did when they put Bowen on him, and if KB decided to put Artest on him with Shaq protecting the paint, Nash is going to be in trouble.

no, san antiono never bothered nash with bowen. he averaged 21/12 on 60 TS% and shot 50%+ from 3 nearly every game. in fact no team has really ever stopped nash, the only reason his teams have lost is because they didnt have the defense, which is what happens when you play amare stoudemire and boris diaw in your front court. putting artest on nash would be a huge waste because no single player can stop the pick n roll and nash doesnt need much space to get a shot off anyways. and if they put shaq on ratliff that means rodman is on gasol which is a pretty huge advantage for him in the post since gasol has more than a few inches on him. and i have to seriously question the idea that charlie scott can guard steve nash because he has size, that doesnt make any sense.

Plus he has a prime Jamison off the bench that can also switch on matchups and still put up buckets.

prime jamison is without a doubt one of the worst defensive players of this generation (at least among well known players). he would see very little playing time in this series as my team would just run him over as he cant guard anyone the offensive advantage would not be worth it to have him on the court. i just checked and every season apart from 2008, his team has been better defensively with him on the bench.

i still dont see where his team is getting the points to outscore mine, shaq isnt going to average 50ppg but w/e.

I might rethink my vote. Shaq gets 30 easily, Artest can give you 20, roman 12-14 based off just rebounds and hustle plays. Where would you get your scoring from other than Nash and Rice?
i dont think Gasol gets anything if hes guarded by Shaq and Rodman on Ratliff. your strength lies in the fast break with Nash, but what about in crunch time when the game slows down?

[NOODLESTYLE]

No, not Charlie Scott guarding Nash. Nash having to guard Charlie Scott. If you're calling out Jamison for his D, where's Nash's D? Tony Parker averged 20ppg in that series. I also give Mike D'Antoni credit for designing a lot of those pick n roll plays for Nash, combined with the PHX medical staff making sure Nash was in top shape. Bowen did a better job in 08 as well, as Nash's numbers weren't nearly as good. Prime Artest is better than Bowen. He probably wouldn't stop Nash, but I think he can make it tough for him.

[Doormatt]

I might rethink my vote. Shaq gets 30 easily, Artest can give you 20, roman 12-14 based off just rebounds and hustle plays. Where would you get your scoring from other than Nash and Rice?
i dont think Gasol gets anything if hes guarded by Shaq and Rodman on Ratliff. your strength lies in the fast break with Nash, but what about in crunch time when the game slows down?

prime butler averaged 20ppg on 55 TS%, if he decides to put artest on nash or rice in crunch time, that means somebody small is going to be guarding butler and i think thats easy points with nash setting him up, hes a pretty decent iso scorer. and anyways my go to play in crunch time will be picking on shaq in the pick n roll.

barnes will get easily as many hustle points as rodman too, hes a pretty good finisher in transition. and will create a lot of problems since he can play the 4 if i want to go small. he can help off of rodman and more importantly he makes it so either shaq or rodman have to guard him on the perimeter as a stretch 4 of sorts. remember the 2 times hes played with pick n roll guards (clippers/suns) hes averaged a career high in points.

[Doormatt]

No, not Charlie Scott guarding Nash. Nash having to guard Charlie Scott. If you're calling out Jamison for his D, where's Nash's D? Tony Parker averged 20ppg in that series. I also give Mike D'Antoni credit for designing a lot of those pick n roll plays for Nash, combined with the PHX medical staff making sure Nash was in top shape. Bowen did a better job in 08 as well, as Nash's numbers weren't nearly as good. Prime Artest is better than Bowen. He probably wouldn't stop Nash, but I think he can make it tough for him.

If Mike D'antoni was responsible for what Nash did then why did Alvin Gentry so easily replicate the results? why was nash able to generate such high offensive numbers not running the plays d'antoni had? obviously its not the system here, its the player. not sure why youre bringing up the medical staff, what does that have to do with anything? if were bringing up intangibles can we talk about how crazy the personalities of shaq/artest/rodman would be? how many runs would that team even have in it before the implode?

also i wouldnt look too deeply into 2008 becuase they completely changed their style of play to accommodate Shaq which in hindsight was obviously the wrong thing to do.

and no, im not concerned about charlie scott. tony parker was able to put up points becuase the suns had absolutely no one guarding the paint. with ratliff+gasol im not too concerned about him finishing at will or anything. plus my team can play zone and dare him to shoot over us, and looking at his numbers hes a very impressive shooter at all.

also tony parker was really good, charlie scott was not even remotely on that level.

btw im calling out jamison on his defense becuase he plays a pretty important position defensively (3/4). nash on the other hand plays point guard, which is the hardest position to make a negative or positive impact from defensively.

[NOODLESTYLE]

Alvin Gentry was Mike D'Antoni's assistant, between 2003-2009, before he became head coach. You don't think Gentry learned anything from D'Antoni? nor did Nash learn anything from D'Antoni? Nash was a 2x MVp playing for D'Antoni not Gentry. If Nash was so unstoppable in the pick and roll and system did not help, why didn't Nash reach that much success until he played for D'Antoni? There's a reason why Nash thinks highly of Mike D'Antoni. Btw, I'm not saying it was all D'Antoni, but he was a integral part. I'll drop the medical staff part.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... index.html

Gentry winces when he hears D'Antoni's name conjured up, too. "I've always believed that what you do as a coach is take a lot of stuff from everybody you work for and add a few things of your own," Gentry said. "Mike is responsible for many of the things we do here, particularly offensively, and I've said that from the time I took over. If somebody's a good coach, they're a good coach, and Mike D'Antoni is a helluva coach. I'd be crazy not to take something from him."

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... z2bGzmVAvF

[Doormatt]

Alvin Gentry was Mike D'Antoni's assistant, between 2003-2009, before he became head coach. You don't think Gentry learned anything from D'Antoni? nor did Nash learn anything from D'Antoni? Nash was a 2x MVp playing for D'Antoni not Gentry. If Nash was so unstoppable in the pick and roll and system did not help, why didn't Nash reach that much success until he played for D'Antoni? There's a reason why Nash thinks highly of Mike D'Antoni. Btw, I'm not saying it was all D'Antoni, but he was a integral part. I'll drop the medical staff part.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... index.html

Gentry winces when he hears D'Antoni's name conjured up, too. "I've always believed that what you do as a coach is take a lot of stuff from everybody you work for and add a few things of your own," Gentry said. "Mike is responsible for many of the things we do here, particularly offensively, and I've said that from the time I took over. If somebody's a good coach, they're a good coach, and Mike D'Antoni is a helluva coach. I'd be crazy not to take something from him."

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... z2bGzmVAvF

Nash thinks highly of D'antoni simply becuase he gave him the keys to the offense, unlike what Nelly did in Dallas. it wasnt so much the system as it was the lack of freedom. i dont even remotely buy the idea that Nash was a product of or seriously helped by D'antoni's system. yes it helps that Mike is a smart offensive coach but Nash wouldve been great regardless, as long as you let him play that style of basketball where he controls the ball.

anyways i dont think this is pertinent to my team as there is no proof that Nash is a "system" player nor do i see how it makes a difference. so what if D'antoni's system helped him? does that make him an inferior player? would you also argue that kobe can only be successful in the triangle since its the only thing hes been successful with? because its the same exact thing. my team is still built around letting Nash run the PnR, idont see any problem here, Thibs isnt going to force him to play low post ball with theo ratliff or something.

in the end it doesnt really matter too much what system a player is running, as long as hes not being stifled (like say forcing the triangle on nash) then everything is fine.

also for the record Dallas had the best offense in the league 3 years in a row from 02-04, so its not like Nash wasnt doing anything there, he was still great. he simply went from really good point guard to GOAT level point guard.

[EArl]

I might rethink my vote. Shaq gets 30 easily, Artest can give you 20, roman 12-14 based off just rebounds and hustle plays. Where would you get your scoring from other than Nash and Rice?
i dont think Gasol gets anything if hes guarded by Shaq and Rodman on Ratliff. your strength lies in the fast break with Nash, but what about in crunch time when the game slows down?

prime butler averaged 20ppg on 55 TS%, if he decides to put artest on nash or rice in crunch time, that means somebody small is going to be guarding butler and i think thats easy points with nash setting him up, hes a pretty decent iso scorer. and anyways my go to play in crunch time will be picking on shaq in the pick n roll.

barnes will get easily as many hustle points as rodman too, hes a pretty good finisher in transition. and will create a lot of problems since he can play the 4 if i want to go small. he can help off of rodman and more importantly he makes it so either shaq or rodman have to guard him on the perimeter as a stretch 4 of sorts. remember the 2 times hes played with pick n roll guards (clippers/suns) hes averaged a career high in points.

Very convincing argument, you got my vote Pleb.

[hermes]

i say doormatt

i'm worried about having multiple crazy people on one team (artest and rodman)