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Hey Lakers fans. Tough loss for you guys last night, but you almost beat a good team. Anyway I made a breakdown video of the game taking a look at plays down the stretch. Let me know what you think and thanks for watching.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9xAGECT51s[/youtube]

The isolation post up is one of the most inefficient plays if not the most inefficient in the game of basketball. MDA was right and I agreed with him then, too bad its what Kobe seems to enjoy the most, Kobe will need to switch his style of play if the Lakers are to be competitive this season.

Kobe is trying to prove something to himself... The Clippers won because instead of the ball being fed to the hot hand, it went to the cold one. Kobe's.
I think things will get better... He'll get stronger, and he'll also figure other ways to win... Because as much as he wants to be the man on offense, he wants to win more.

John Long wrote:The isolation post up is one of the most inefficient plays if not the most inefficient in the game of basketball. MDA was right and I agreed with him then, too bad its what Kobe seems to enjoy the most, Kobe will need to switch his style of play if the Lakers are to be competitive this season.

That is the most idiotic stance to take on the post up game, you're flat out wrong same way D'Antoni was wrong. I guess guys like Jabbar, Moses Malone, Shaq, and a host of many other great post players hurt their teams by playing in the post huh ? Those guys have rings from posting up in iso situations....and you believe MDA's theory on it ?

The objective of strong post play is to score the easiest basket possible as close to the basket as possible. It also opens up the floor when your team is laced with decent perimeter threats. It also helps with controlling the tempo of the game, it also helps with rebounding, it also helps for transition defense because you're not gunning shots from deep in the perimeter.

Kobe is by far our most effective post player because he can still draw double teams. Post play creates the best opportunities for open jumpers because if you have a dangerous post player who needs to be doubled, you're going to get open J's all day regardless.

In closing you'll always be able to state your opinions on post play, but MDA will NEVER coach an NBA team again because of his belief of that. That is just idiotic to think that.

It is not only MDA's stance it is statistically proven that it is one of the most inefficient bball play of all time. Kareem had magic to run the show if all he depended was on post play then he won't have the amount of rings he has now. I'm not opposed to some level of post play but not the one Kobe is running. Kobe is not SHAQ! Neither is he Hakeem and this is not 2012-2013 where Kobe was our most efficient post scorer. This is kobe at 36 years old coming off 2 major surgeries still wanting to force post ups and shoot over 3 defenders in his face! That's just ugly basketball and extremely inefficient going by Kobe's fg% and the amount of turnovers forcing those post ups lead to. Kobe has actually had much more efficient opportunities this year coming off screens and shooting off Jordan Hill's picks. That's the way they should go for now because trying to force a Kobe post up is extremely predictable and will lead to shooting more long twos and inefficient chucking which will result to more losses, just saying.

John Long wrote:It is not only MDA's stance it is statistically proven that it is one of the most inefficient bball play of all time. Kareem had magic to run the show if all he depended was on post play then he won't have the amount of rings he has. I'm not opposed to some level of post play but not the one Kobe is running. Kobe is not SHAQ! Neither is he Hakeem and this is not 2012-2013 where Kobe was our most efficient post scorer. This is kobe at 36 years coming off 2 major surgeries still wanting to force post ups and shoot over 3 defenders in his face! That's just ugly basketball and extremely inefficient going by Kobe's fg% and the amount of turnovers forcing those post ups lead. Kobe has actually had much efficient opportunities this year coming off screens and shooting off Jordan Hill's picks. That's the way they should go for now because trying to force a Kobe post up is extremely predictable and will lead to more long twos and inefficient chucking which will result to more losses, just saying.

I don't care about statistics, bottom line is it depends on who's doing the post period. If it's Tyson Chandler yeah it is low as hell. If it's prime Tim Duncan then the chance of a bucket is as good as gold...it's almost automatic. The stats are fraudulent because it could be taking into account every player posting instead of the elite post players.

And the reason I say they're fraud is because the Showtime Lakers started their sets from the post about 95-98% of the time, either with Worthy or Jabbar and even Magic. Kareem was totally dependent on the post, I know I've seen the man live on many nights.

The only time he ever shot a mid range shot is if the post play started with Worthy and he kicked out and it rotated to Kareem. Sorry but there is no way you can even begin to explain it's an ineffective play.

And I get the gist of what you're saying about Kobe's play in the post, but if he had kick out threats his post decisions would be 100 fold different.

John Long wrote:It is not only MDA's stance it is statistically proven that it is one of the most inefficient bball play of all time. Karen had magic to run the show if all he depended was on post play then he won't have the amount of rings he has. I'm not opposed to some level of post play but not the one Kobe is running. Kobe is not SHAQ! Neither is he Hakeem and this is not 2012-2013 where Kobe was our most efficient post scorer. This is kobe at 36 years coming off 2 major surgeries still wanting to force post ups and shoot over 3 defenders in his face! That's just ugly basketball and extremely inefficient going by Kobe's fg% and the amount of turnovers forcing those post ups lead. Kobe has actually had much efficient opportunities this year coming off screens and shooting off Jordan Hill's picks. That's the way they should go for now because trying to force a Kobe post up is extremely predictable and will lead to more long twos and inefficient chucking which will result to more losses, just saying.

Source?

DEEP3CL wrote:

John Long wrote:The isolation post up is one of the most inefficient plays if not the most inefficient in the game of basketball. MDA was right and I agreed with him then, too bad its what Kobe seems to enjoy the most, Kobe will need to switch his style of play if the Lakers are to be competitive this season.

That is the most idiotic stance to take on the post up game, you're flat out wrong same way D'Antoni was wrong. I guess guys like Jabbar, Moses Malone, Shaq, and a host of many other great post players hurt their teams by playing in the post huh ? Those guys have rings from posting up in iso situations....and you believe MDA's theory on it ?

The objective of strong post play is to score the easiest basket possible as close to the basket as possible. It also opens up the floor when your team is laced with decent perimeter threats. It also helps with controlling the tempo of the game, it also helps with rebounding, it also helps for transition defense because you're not gunning shots from deep in the perimeter.

Kobe is by far our most effective post player because he can still draw double teams. Post play creates the best opportunities for open jumpers because if you have a dangerous post player who needs to be doubled, you're going to get open J's all day regardless.

In closing you'll always be able to state your opinions on post play, but MDA will NEVER coach an NBA team again because of his belief of that. That is just idiotic to think that.

The perimeter game has evolved to a whole new level in today's NBA. What works well in the past doesn't necessarily work great now. Besides you're talking about the best of the best here when it comes to post play. All the post up players today could never hold a candle to Shaq or Kareem's efficiency in the post.

Michael Lucky wrote:

DEEP3CL wrote:

John Long wrote:The isolation post up is one of the most inefficient plays if not the most inefficient in the game of basketball. MDA was right and I agreed with him then, too bad its what Kobe seems to enjoy the most, Kobe will need to switch his style of play if the Lakers are to be competitive this season.

That is the most idiotic stance to take on the post up game, you're flat out wrong same way D'Antoni was wrong. I guess guys like Jabbar, Moses Malone, Shaq, and a host of many other great post players hurt their teams by playing in the post huh ? Those guys have rings from posting up in iso situations....and you believe MDA's theory on it ?

The objective of strong post play is to score the easiest basket possible as close to the basket as possible. It also opens up the floor when your team is laced with decent perimeter threats. It also helps with controlling the tempo of the game, it also helps with rebounding, it also helps for transition defense because you're not gunning shots from deep in the perimeter.

Kobe is by far our most effective post player because he can still draw double teams. Post play creates the best opportunities for open jumpers because if you have a dangerous post player who needs to be doubled, you're going to get open J's all day regardless.

In closing you'll always be able to state your opinions on post play, but MDA will NEVER coach an NBA team again because of his belief of that. That is just idiotic to think that.

The perimeter game has evolved to a whole new level in today's NBA. What works well in the past doesn't necessarily work great now. Besides you're talking about the best of the best here when it comes to post play. All the post up players today could never hold a candle to Shaq or Kareem's efficiency in the post.

Oh I agree 100%, it's tougher to guard the perimeter today than it was even 10 years ago. And yes post play has eroded but only because of the talent of the post players themselves. So when MDA made his comment on post play he never referenced weather he was talking about it as a whole or just for this era. But many got the sense he doesn't like post play at all, and the thing we have to remember with him was that his pro career was over seas in Euro leagues, post play there probably wasn't as good. So the game to him was very different.

2:00. "Jordan comes out of nowhere for a great block". Loses all the credibility right there...

rayfantastic wrote:2:00. "Jordan comes out of nowhere for a great block". Loses all the credibility right there...

Yeah realized it was a blatant foul after, but still Jordan makes those 2 on 1's very tough.

DEEP3CL wrote:

John Long wrote:It is not only MDA's stance it is statistically proven that it is one of the most inefficient bball play of all time. Kareem had magic to run the show if all he depended was on post play then he won't have the amount of rings he has. I'm not opposed to some level of post play but not the one Kobe is running. Kobe is not SHAQ! Neither is he Hakeem and this is not 2012-2013 where Kobe was our most efficient post scorer. This is kobe at 36 years coming off 2 major surgeries still wanting to force post ups and shoot over 3 defenders in his face! That's just ugly basketball and extremely inefficient going by Kobe's fg% and the amount of turnovers forcing those post ups lead. Kobe has actually had much efficient opportunities this year coming off screens and shooting off Jordan Hill's picks. That's the way they should go for now because trying to force a Kobe post up is extremely predictable and will lead to more long twos and inefficient chucking which will result to more losses, just saying.

I don't care about statistics, bottom line is it depends on who's doing the post period. If it's Tyson Chandler yeah it is low as hell. If it's prime Tim Duncan then the chance of a bucket is as good as gold...it's almost automatic. The stats are fraudulent because it could be taking into account every player posting instead of the elite post players.

And the reason I say they're fraud is because the Showtime Lakers started their sets from the post about 95-98% of the time, either with Worthy or Jabbar and even Magic. Kareem was totally dependent on the post, I know I've seen the man live on many nights.

The only time he ever shot a mid range shot is if the post play started with Worthy and he kicked out and it rotated to Kareem. Sorry but there is no way you can even begin to explain it's an ineffective play.

And I get the gist of what you're saying about Kobe's play in the post, but if he had kick out threats his post decisions would be 100 fold different.

I think we can all agree that Kobe doesn't have the greatest of assets to kick it out to, but Kobe's incessant posting is unlike anything I've seen by a guard in the NBA. Even where he's posting up, he's not always in great position, they're sort of like posting up and shooting turnaround 12 footers as our number one play, not even looking to pass.

The only way a team with this little talent can succeed (I mean even before Swaggy, Kelly, Nash, and Randle's injuries) was if we played smarter than other teams and shared the ball efficiently. Right now we're simply not doing that. Now I get Kobe, he isn't as unwilling of a passer as most people paint him to be, dude just wants to win, but right now I think he's erring on the side of not enough trust in his teammates.

It's abundantly clear that while Kobe is looking good for his age, he simply can't carry a team on his own, especially without drawing more fouls or hitting a ton of 3's. Like I said in the pre-season, the way he's playing he'll have to shoot 23 shots to average 20 points. It's nearly impossible to consistently win when our only 20ppg threat needs that many touches to score like that.

I would also draw a distinction between an ISO post-up and an inside-out game that you're referring to. I doubt that what Kareem or Shaq did would be considered merely ISOs, yes they were isolated, but to make the basketball play (plus, they were 7 footers with elite FG%s...). There's nothing wrong with Kobe posting up, but there is something wrong when he forces the issue. It's like watching a bad park game sometimes...I know he can hit that turnaround, but still his positioning sometimes is in a spot you rarely see guys post up in the NBA or most anywhere.

If Kob wants to play in the post, he has to work harder on positioning, because I don't recall Shaq ISOing from these horrible angles way off the block.

ArC_man wrote:

John Long wrote:It is not only MDA's stance it is statistically proven that it is one of the most inefficient bball play of all time. Karen had magic to run the show if all he depended was on post play then he won't have the amount of rings he has. I'm not opposed to some level of post play but not the one Kobe is running. Kobe is not SHAQ! Neither is he Hakeem and this is not 2012-2013 where Kobe was our most efficient post scorer. This is kobe at 36 years coming off 2 major surgeries still wanting to force post ups and shoot over 3 defenders in his face! That's just ugly basketball and extremely inefficient going by Kobe's fg% and the amount of turnovers forcing those post ups lead. Kobe has actually had much efficient opportunities this year coming off screens and shooting off Jordan Hill's picks. That's the way they should go for now because trying to force a Kobe post up is extremely predictable and will lead to more long twos and inefficient chucking which will result to more losses, just saying.

Source?

Isolation play is the 2nd worse point per possession(PPP) next to a shot taken by a pick n roll ball handler with a .84 point per possession. Post up is right next to it with a 3rd worse ranking of .86 and those 2 are Kobe's favorite plays. Kobe will need to add spot up 3s, step back 3s in addition to his driving ability to be able to make this team competitive and to have the chance to retire gracefully. The game has changed and Kobe needs to adjust and evolve with it.

link:http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba-offenses-numbers-234100285--nba.html

DEEP3CL wrote:

John Long wrote:It is not only MDA's stance it is statistically proven that it is one of the most inefficient bball play of all time. Kareem had magic to run the show if all he depended was on post play then he won't have the amount of rings he has. I'm not opposed to some level of post play but not the one Kobe is running. Kobe is not SHAQ! Neither is he Hakeem and this is not 2012-2013 where Kobe was our most efficient post scorer. This is kobe at 36 years coming off 2 major surgeries still wanting to force post ups and shoot over 3 defenders in his face! That's just ugly basketball and extremely inefficient going by Kobe's fg% and the amount of turnovers forcing those post ups lead. Kobe has actually had much efficient opportunities this year coming off screens and shooting off Jordan Hill's picks. That's the way they should go for now because trying to force a Kobe post up is extremely predictable and will lead to more long twos and inefficient chucking which will result to more losses, just saying.

I don't care about statistics, bottom line is it depends on who's doing the post period. If it's Tyson Chandler yeah it is low as hell. If it's prime Tim Duncan then the chance of a bucket is as good as gold...it's almost automatic. The stats are fraudulent because it could be taking into account every player posting instead of the elite post players.

Nice one!

John Long wrote:

ArC_man wrote:

John Long wrote:It is not only MDA's stance it is statistically proven that it is one of the most inefficient bball play of all time. Karen had magic to run the show if all he depended was on post play then he won't have the amount of rings he has. I'm not opposed to some level of post play but not the one Kobe is running. Kobe is not SHAQ! Neither is he Hakeem and this is not 2012-2013 where Kobe was our most efficient post scorer. This is kobe at 36 years coming off 2 major surgeries still wanting to force post ups and shoot over 3 defenders in his face! That's just ugly basketball and extremely inefficient going by Kobe's fg% and the amount of turnovers forcing those post ups lead. Kobe has actually had much efficient opportunities this year coming off screens and shooting off Jordan Hill's picks. That's the way they should go for now because trying to force a Kobe post up is extremely predictable and will lead to more long twos and inefficient chucking which will result to more losses, just saying.

Source?

Isolation play is the 2nd worse point per possession(PPP) next to a shot taken by a pick n roll ball handler with a .84 point per possession. Post up is right next to it with a 3rd worse ranking of .86 and those 2 are Kobe's favorite plays. Kobe will need to add spot up 3s, step back 3s in addition to his driving ability to be able to make this team competitive and to have the chance to retire gracefully. The game has changed and Kobe needs to adjust and evolve with it.

link:http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba-offenses-numbers-234100285--nba.html

Thanks for the link.

1) Isn't it interesting how PnR is possibly the most commonly run play in the league yet the PnR ball handler shooting is the least efficient play in terms of PPP? The statistics say that we want Kobe/Lin running the PnR to shoot less than Boozer/Hill receiving the ball. Do we really trust guys like Boozer and Hill in clutch situations with the ball?

2) While the league average PPP for a post up was 0.84, Kobe's a statistical outlier. When last healthy, Kobe was a league leading 1.05 PPP on post-ups which would rank #2 in terms of half court plays (I'm not going to count offensive rebounds or transition as actual plays). Kobe's post-up game is something that's not predicated on athleticism so I'm not expecting his efficiency to drastically drop.

3) In 2012-2013, Kobe was actually most efficient on plays off screens (1.144 PPP) which brings up the question: Why doesn't Kobe come off screens more? I think the most likely answer to this question is that the team just hasn't had enough time to practice and implement these plays (I don't think Kobe refuses to come off screens and I'm really hoping that Scott has some of these types of plays).

In the end, if we want Kobe to be more efficient we have to have action to put in him situations where he is more efficient. Which means 1) we need Lin handling the ball and 2) we need some sort of action off the ball to free up Kobe. All of these are most likely a work in progress since the team's been focused on defense. That said, if giving Kobe the ball in the post and clearing out is already one of the most efficient plays in the game, why not go to it in crunch time while the team's still learning the system?

clipps don't seem that good right now, they almost lost to a okc team w/o westbrook and Durant and then sure enough they actually did lose to a talented Sac team. So honestly we lost to them because of our lack of talent plain and simple.

The real question is; "Why did we almost beat the Clippers?"

We lost because Kobe froze our offense and shot us out of the game... Let's be honest about that.

But we almost won because Lin remembered where he left his game and seems to really enjoy playing Chris Paul, Hill had an all-career type game, Wes wasn't completely useless, Davis did what he does, and guys like Ellington, Price, Sacre, Boozer, and Clarkson made timely plays... Also, for much of the game Kobe was very efficient and wasn't forcing things.

But you are correct... At the end of the day, this team does not have the talent to compete with the better teams in the league. Until that changes, our expectations should be set accordingly...
Instead of looking for wins, we should be focusing on chemistry and flow for the team. I can handle losses if the team plays smart, consistent, basketball, with solid D and good ball movement. If we fight and not roll over... Etc.

drk3351 wrote:

rayfantastic wrote:2:00. "Jordan comes out of nowhere for a great block". Loses all the credibility right there...

Yeah realized it was a blatant foul after, but still Jordan makes those 2 on 1's very tough.

Didn't expect an objective and very frank admission here. I apologize for the harsh comment.

ChokeFasncists wrote:

DEEP3CL wrote:

John Long wrote:It is not only MDA's stance it is statistically proven that it is one of the most inefficient bball play of all time. Kareem had magic to run the show if all he depended was on post play then he won't have the amount of rings he has. I'm not opposed to some level of post play but not the one Kobe is running. Kobe is not SHAQ! Neither is he Hakeem and this is not 2012-2013 where Kobe was our most efficient post scorer. This is kobe at 36 years coming off 2 major surgeries still wanting to force post ups and shoot over 3 defenders in his face! That's just ugly basketball and extremely inefficient going by Kobe's fg% and the amount of turnovers forcing those post ups lead. Kobe has actually had much efficient opportunities this year coming off screens and shooting off Jordan Hill's picks. That's the way they should go for now because trying to force a Kobe post up is extremely predictable and will lead to more long twos and inefficient chucking which will result to more losses, just saying.

I don't care about statistics, bottom line is it depends on who's doing the post period. If it's Tyson Chandler yeah it is low as hell. If it's prime Tim Duncan then the chance of a bucket is as good as gold...it's almost automatic. The stats are fraudulent because it could be taking into account every player posting instead of the elite post players.

Nice one!

The funny thing is the stats actually support what Deep is saying. Synergy unfortunately has made their data unavailable to non-professional sources, but between 2010-2013 Kobe was not just the most efficient SG in the league on post up shots (calculated in terms of points-per-shot minus turnover rate), he was the most efficient player in the entire league on post-up opportunities. He led the entire league in 2010, 2012, and 2013 in post-up efficiency (thanks to Dwight being so turnover prone and Duncan being past his prime).

Kobe post-ups over this period ('10-'13) were more efficient than any "league average" shot from anywhere on the court. Yes, the data says that across the entire population of NBA players post ups have become the most inefficient scoring play in basketball, but this probably has something to do with the fact virtually the entire league sucks ass with their back to the basket. It's unconscionably stupid to be saying "don't post Kobe and Duncan up because scrubs C-Z are bad at post-ups," which is effectively his argument. Kobe actually should have been spending more time on the block, not less. It'd be like taking the data for the PPS data for Warriors and Hawks only, and telling all NBA teams to adopt the same 3P-rate as these guys because of how efficient they are, ignoring the fact Curry, Klay, and Korver are the primary 3-point shot takers on this team.

Unfortunately Kobe now =/- Kobe then. He's been pretty bad with his back to the basket so far this year (he's just been bad all around), and no, we didn't lose the Clippers game because Kobe was trying to prove something, that's just dumb. He took 1 bad shot (the 3 where there 4 seconds left on the clock, should have gone to a pull-up), the rest were very makable shots. It wasn't a case of him not "feeding the hot hand" because Lin kept opting not to run P&R/P&P with Hill, and the one opportunity him and Kobe had to run a little 2 man game and get him a look he stood there instead of going to set a screen.

D Nice wrote:

ChokeFasncists wrote:

DEEP3CL wrote:I don't care about statistics, bottom line is it depends on who's doing the post period. If it's Tyson Chandler yeah it is low as hell. If it's prime Tim Duncan then the chance of a bucket is as good as gold...it's almost automatic. The stats are fraudulent because it could be taking into account every player posting instead of the elite post players.

Nice one!

The funny thing is the stats actually support what Deep is saying. Synergy unfortunately has made their data unavailable to non-professional sources, but between 2010-2013 Kobe was not just the most efficient SG in the league on post up shots (calculated in terms of points-per-shot minus turnover rate), he was the most efficient player in the entire league on post-up opportunities. He led the entire league in 2010, 2012, and 2013 in post-up efficiency (thanks to Dwight being so turnover prone and Duncan being past his prime).

Kobe post-ups over this period ('10-'13) were more efficient than any "league average" shot from anywhere on the court. Yes, the data says that across the entire population of NBA players post ups have become the most inefficient scoring play in basketball, but this probably has something to do with the fact virtually the entire league sucks ass with their back to the basket. It's unconscionably stupid to be saying "don't post Kobe and Duncan up because scrubs C-Z are bad at post-ups," which is effectively his argument. Kobe actually should have been spending more time on the block, not less. It'd be like taking the data for the PPS data for Warriors and Hawks only, and telling all NBA teams to adopt the same 3P-rate as these guys because of how efficient they are, ignoring the fact Curry, Klay, and Korver are the primary 3-point shot takers on this team.

Well said. It's strange there are so few good post up players now, (everybody wants to be like MJ?) well, we've still got big Al working down there, what's his stats like?

Unfortunately Kobe now =/- Kobe then. He's been pretty bad with his back to the basket so far this year (he's just been bad all around), and no, we didn't lose the Clippers game because Kobe was trying to prove something, that's just dumb. He took 1 bad shot (the 3 where there 4 seconds left on the clock, should have gone to a pull-up), the rest were very makable shots. It wasn't a case of him not "feeding the hot hand" because Lin kept opting not to run P&R/P&P with Hill, and the one opportunity him and Kobe had to run a little 2 man game and get him a look he stood there instead of going to set a screen.

Hill doesn't set good screens unfortunately. Too thin? We need Ed Davis.