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Since Mr. Dudley's comments, Kobe's been discussed ad nauseum on the GB. It seems to me that he has more critics/haters than Lebron, which is astounding. So I'd like to know what you guys think of him, and which criticisms you think are valid.

Personally, I agree with the criticism that Kobe hogs the ball at times.

Top 15-ish all-time player, Laker legend, etc, etc. That said, Dudley is basically on point, and even the front office has made it pretty clear they want him to retire after this season, I don't know any other way to interpret Kupchak's constant commentary to this effect. The Spurs talk about how they're going to have to beg Duncan to stay, the Mavs gush about Dirk playing into the future, even the Wolves (with a broken down KG) are talking up the chances of him playing with them for 2 more years, just to help mold the young guys. Mitch isn't even willing to say "we want Kobe back", and is instead actively talking up his retirement and how that's his understand of what will happen, and if Kobe wants to come back next year "we'll address it next offseason, if that happens". It's pretty obvious he's sending a message to both the fans and Kobe (and Kobe even pushed back on twitter recently, saying his thoughts about retirement haven't changed, i.e. he's not considering it, even though Mitch says he's retiring). His presence is very likely to be an obstacle to moving into the next phase of the Lakers existence, just because of who he is and how he plays, and his history with the team (and the media distraction he'll create, intentionally or not).

Luciferswings wrote:Top 15-ish all-time player, Laker legend, etc, etc. That said, Dudley is basically on point, and even the front office has made it pretty clear they want him to retire after this season, I don't know any other way to interpret Kupchak's constant commentary to this effect. The Spurs talk about how they're going to have to beg Duncan to stay, the Mavs gush about Dirk playing into the future, even the Wolves (with a broken down KG) are talking up the chances of him playing with them for 2 more years, just to help mold the young guys. Mitch isn't even willing to say "we want Kobe back", and is instead actively talking up his retirement and how that's his understand of what will happen, and if Kobe wants to come back next year "we'll address it next offseason, if that happens". It's pretty obvious he's sending a message to both the fans and Kobe (and Kobe even pushed back on twitter recently, saying his thoughts about retirement haven't changed, i.e. he's not considering it, even though Mitch says he's retiring). His presence is very likely to be an obstacle to moving into the next phase of the Lakers existence, just because of who he is and how he plays, and his history with the team (and the media distraction he'll create, intentionally or not).

If Lakers wanted to stick the boot in, they could have done it in 2014 or when they had an opportunity to lock Dwight in LA, instead they gave him a contract Mavs did not afford to Dirk or Spurs did not offer to Duncan. Actions speak louder than words and I think the Lakers have more than shown their appreciation for Kobe in ways other franchises never did for their own stars.

This Dudley, Nelly witch hunt should stop and its classless to kick a man when he is down.

Luciferswings wrote:Top 15-ish all-time player, Laker legend, etc, etc. That said, Dudley is basically on point, and even the front office has made it pretty clear they want him to retire after this season, I don't know any other way to interpret Kupchak's constant commentary to this effect. The Spurs talk about how they're going to have to beg Duncan to stay, the Mavs gush about Dirk playing into the future, even the Wolves (with a broken down KG) are talking up the chances of him playing with them for 2 more years, just to help mold the young guys. Mitch isn't even willing to say "we want Kobe back", and is instead actively talking up his retirement and how that's his understand of what will happen, and if Kobe wants to come back next year "we'll address it next offseason, if that happens". It's pretty obvious he's sending a message to both the fans and Kobe (and Kobe even pushed back on twitter recently, saying his thoughts about retirement haven't changed, i.e. he's not considering it, even though Mitch says he's retiring). His presence is very likely to be an obstacle to moving into the next phase of the Lakers existence, just because of who he is and how he plays, and his history with the team (and the media distraction he'll create, intentionally or not).

Dudley's a clown... A never-was talking smack about All-Stars in order to remain relevant.

I'm not sure how you can think Kobe hasn't considered Retiring after the season... He's made several public announcements to that effect. That's the hinge-pin of this entire argument...
Mitch is just supporting his decision and protecting him. If he said he wasn't sure if Kobe would be back, Kobe would be getting hammered for not making up his mind.

Not sure we need a thread like this based on someone like Dudley's comments... We've done all this a million times.

This really wasn't supposed to be about Dudley, tbh. This is more about talking about his flaws and strengths in a non-trollish way.

Unfortunately there's not really a way to do that... As soon as a thread starts here about Kobe, the Trolls come out of the woodwork.

And TBH I don't think this thread is going to end up covering his strengths... It's like those have all been forgotten really.

Dudley's comments were resoundingly negative. If you start a thread with that, all you can expect is more of the same. And if this truly is Kobe's final season, he deserves better than that.

I think Kobe did more for the NBA than Jeter did for the MLB... I'm not sure why he doesn't deserve as much of a victory lap as Jeter got... But that won't happen.

Any of the criticisms you can think of, I posted here at various times... Kobe frustrated the hell out of me many times. He tried, from time to time, to make the Franchise I love, all about him. And I'm a Magic fan, so his style of play has never been my favorite.

But he was an incredible, once in a couple generations, talent... I'm not sure we'll ever see someone like him again. And I think it's time for fans and the media, to give him the respect he deserves.

I think that people forget that he actually used to be a pretty efficient scorer during his younger days. It seems like all people remember is the last few years, kind of like how people act like Tim Duncan has always been a minute-restricted role-player. Kobe also was a really good passer and defensive player, when he wanted to be. I think that is what separates him from a guy like Carmelo Anthony.

Kilroy wrote:Unfortunately there's not really a way to do that... As soon as a thread starts here about Kobe, the Trolls come out of the woodwork.

And TBH I don't think this thread is going to end up covering his strengths... It's like those have all been forgotten really.

Dudley's comments were resoundingly negative. If you start a thread with that, all you can expect is more of the same. And if this truly is Kobe's final season, he deserves better than that.

I think Kobe did more for the NBA than Jeter did for the MLB... I'm not sure why he doesn't deserve as much of a victory lap as Jeter got... But that won't happen.

Any of the criticisms you can think of, I posted here at various times... Kobe frustrated the hell out of me many times. He tried, from time to time, to make the Franchise I love, all about him. And I'm a Magic fan, so his style of play has never been my favorite.

But he was an incredible, once in a couple generations, talent... I'm not sure we'll ever see someone like him again. And I think it's time for fans and the media, to give him the respect he deserves.

I actually agree that Kobe deserves a retirement tour, and a nice send off. The problem is that he has to agree he's retiring for that to work. If the media coverage isn't what we would all like, whose fault is that? If Kobe came out and said "I'm retiring after the season" the press coverage would be completely different. Instead of criticism, everyone would gather around to tell stories of his great legacy, etc. There's no benefit or interest in a story taking shots on a guy on the way out. The criticism still exists because it seems like he doesn't want to retire.

EDIT- I'll just add that you've deleted my above post for "derailing by talking about Dudley", even though the post I made virtually didn't mention Dudley (just once at the end) and was actually very logical and well thought through. It was a perfectly cordial and well reasoned post about Mitch Kupchak, and the comments he has made. I'm guessing it was too close to the mark. How are we supposed to "not talk about Dudley" when that is the basis of the OP anyway? Surely some sort of edit of the OP (and warning in it) should be added before scrubbing people's posts about it.

My reply to Dudley

^ lol

Never seen that before...

Yeah, that's awesome.

At this point, any real Lakers fan who knows Kobe's value and all he's done for the league and the organization doesn't even argue anymore. It does absolutely nothing. Any person with an actual basketball mind knows you can stack his accomplishments up against any of the greatest in league history and he can hold his own.

My thoughts on Kobe right now tend to be about what's going to happen next summer. If Kobe decides that he wants to keep playing, I really hope it's worked out amicably and doesn't turn into circus between Kobe, the front office, lakers legends that are outspoken, and a divided fan base. It'll be a tight rope the front office will have to walk if they're forced to make some tough decisions related to Kobe.

I think he plans to retire but he's avoiding an announcement to not have to go through what Jeter had and become a traveling circus show. If I learned anything from Nash's final season it is that these pathological competitors want their final season to be more like a drag race than a limp to the finish line. They want that final adrenaline rush for one last time.

Kobe also recently signed with an agency to represent him in his movie ventures and both him and Wade have been traveling together to do some brand promotions every chance they get, all of that points to him planning for a life outside basketball.

It just sickens me when people try to piece one and one together to arrive at a half baked idea and then bash Kobe with it, despite it being a cultivation of their own imaginations.

Living legend who gets disrespected a little to much. Any other player who averaged 20+ points along with 5 assists and 5 rebounds would be considered a selfless player all about the team. Since it's kobe though he's a ballhog. Every superstar of this generation has gunned the ball at some point. Then there is the double standard. Kobe takes a team with pau who had one all star appearance before him and Odom who had none and his team is stacked. Now that's not a knock on odom or pau because I love them both. Laker legends imo. Yet lebron can team up with two franchise players who were perennial all stars and he carried them. Then anyone could win with Shaq. Then every time a negative story comes out it's fact but the mini mamba story is refuted by saying they had to say that about kobe because they were just nice. It's beyond stupid at this point .

My thoughts on Kobe?

Thank you for 5 titles and 20 years of service!/

For all that he did for the organization, i have nothing but respect for him. He is a top 5 player in my book and no one is changing my mind so don't bother.

He has a lot haters.

he's da best

My thoughts on Kobe? Top 5 dead or alive. A truly living legend. His longevity can't be denied, I have seen them all. All the debates from Kobe vs Jordan, to Kobe vs Jason Kidd, to Kobe vs AI, to Kobe vs Vinsanity, to Kobe vs TMac, to Kobe vs Lebron.

In between most of these battles Kobe always came out on top. So no doubt fans of these other guys that played on their teams will hate Kobe with a passion and will hate Laker fans cos we dominated the early 2000s and now with the emergence of Lebron fans will rally around him to finally win an argument. That's why I don't pay attention to bitter fans on boards like realgm.

Realgm only has at most 300 posters maybe (50 -100 active posters) in the basketball forum, so they are convincingly the minority. Go outside to an actual park or a local basketball gym. Guys who know the game and play the game give Kobe props! and most guys respect Lebron as well but you don't see the same type of adulation they have for Kobe with Lebron. Its just different, Kobe was a killer and he was much more entertaining. If you are sitting behind your computer and reading box scores obviously you will be astonished by gaudy stats but once you watch the game and really follow a guy like Kobe and get to witness his will to win in real time, then you will understand and admire what his greatness is all about.